M-1 to break ground this summer

[stasu1213]

I see a lot of road work being done throughout the city but road work on Woodward from downtown to Boston Edison is still moving at a slow pace. The only reason why there are orange barrels lining Woodward downtown is for Dan Gilbert is having work done on a roof on one of his buildings. Woodward from the Fisher up to Grand Blvd is in badly need of repaving and nothing is being done. The light rail will be curveside so why hasn't road work began on the middle part of Woodward?

[ghettopalmetto]

I see a lot of road work being done throughout the city but road work on Woodward from downtown to Boston Edison is still moving at a slow pace. The only reason why there are orange barrels lining Woodward downtown is for Dan Gilbert is having work done on a roof on one of his buildings. Woodward from the Fisher up to Grand Blvd is in badly need of repaving and nothing is being done. The light rail will be curveside so why hasn't road work began on the middle part of Woodward?

I would assume all the paving will be done at once, i.e. after the tracks have been laid. Mobilization and demobilization costs $$$--it's cheaper to knock it all out at once than in stages.

[stasu1213]

I would assume all the paving will be done at once, i.e. after the tracks have been laid. Mobilization and demobilization costs $$$--it's cheaper to knock it all out at once than in stages.

So what you're saying that motorists have to go another 2 years destroying the suspensions and tires on their cars from driving up a more deteriorating Woodward Avenue?

[DetroitPlanner]

I would assume all the paving will be done at once, i.e. after the tracks have been laid. Mobilization and demobilization costs $$$--it's cheaper to knock it all out at once than in stages.

You're assuming wrong. They need to fix the base before they attach anything to it. The pavement, bridge redecking, streetscape, and tracks are to go in at the same time.

[ghettopalmetto]

You're assuming wrong. They need to fix the base before they attach anything to it. The pavement, bridge redecking, streetscape, and tracks are to go in at the same time.

The question was about the pavement [[i.e. the surface). No one said anything about the base. But the pavement necessarily has to be done last, and no one is going to resurface the roadway just to tear it up within the next two years.

[stasu1213]

I am beginning to wonder if this project was well thought out. Woodward would had been repaved by now if the 3 mile light rail wasn't part of it

[masterblaster]

In fact, it will be pretty f'ing awesome when that BRT from Pontiac speeds into downtown via Cass, paralleling M1 [[as currently proposed). M1 will provide local service and the BRT can shuttle in the suburban workers, WSU students, and even event-goers from afar.

There are no detriments associated with M1.

If BRT will service Woodward from Downtown to Pontiac, and there are NO plans to extend the M-1 Rail past Grand Boulevard, then why not just extend the People Mover to the New Center Area and NOT BUILD M-1. It would serve the same purpose as M-1, be grade-separated and thus not affected by traffic, cost just a little bit more, and according to the below 2007 study, it would not require purchasing any additional rail cars and PeopleMover employees [[because the existing cars are operating at well under capacity). It would make the PeopleMover system downtown so much more useful.

"This expanded system would be able to effectively function with the present fleet of vehicles, existing staff levels, and current maintenance and
operational control facility, while serving the entire Woodward corridor."

http://drcurryassociates.net/discussionpaper.html

Both Vancouver and Miami expanded on their People Mover systems.

[dtowncitylover]

If BRT will service Woodward from Downtown to Pontiac, and there are NO plans to extend the M-1 Rail past Grand Boulevard, then why not just extend the People Mover to the New Center Area and NOT BUILD M-1. It would serve the same purpose as M-1, be grade-separated and thus not affected by traffic, cost just a little bit more, and according to the below 2007 study, it would not require purchasing any additional rail cars and PeopleMover employees [[because the existing cars are operating at well under capacity). It would make the PeopleMover system downtown so much more useful.

"This expanded system would be able to effectively function with the present fleet of vehicles, existing staff levels, and current maintenance and
operational control facility, while serving the entire Woodward corridor."

http://drcurryassociates.net/discussionpaper.html

Both Vancouver and Miami expanded on their People Mover systems.

Miami's was rexpanded 20 years ago when this technology was still sem-relevent. Miami also has a rapid transit system.

Vancouver seems to have updated their system over time, unlike us. The technology we still have is outdated and would be expensive to expand considering no one makes it anymore.

[MSUguy]

The "mythical, non-existent, [[in your mind) majority", voted with the choice they made, obviously. I pour my cash down the gas tank because I have to get to a job, to pay my taxes, to buy choo-choo's and stadiums for Billionaires. You sound uptight. Why don't you take a walk to a latte shop? There's one 3.3 miles down the road. I'd give you a ride, but I have to be here @ work.

What choice? In Metro Detroit we/the state over the last 50 years has chosen to invest overwhelmingly in favor of roads. We've added thousands of miles of new mileage in a region that has had negligible population growth to pay for it. While giving short shrift to all other options, that's not choice. That's stacking the deck.

[DetroitPlanner]

The question was about the pavement [[i.e. the surface). No one said anything about the base. But the pavement necessarily has to be done last, and no one is going to resurface the roadway just to tear it up within the next two years.

The road is to be reconstructed, not re-paved [[Big Difference). It all comes out then the base layers are fixed prior to constructing anything.

[Honky Tonk]

What choice? In Metro Detroit we/the state over the last 50 years has chosen to invest overwhelmingly in favor of roads. We've added thousands of miles of new mileage in a region that has had negligible population growth to pay for it. While giving short shrift to all other options, that's not choice. That's stacking the deck.

"What choice?" The choice people made by moving out of Detroit and somewhere more amicable to their needs.

[DetroitPlanner]

I am beginning to wonder if this project was well thought out. Woodward would had been repaved by now if the 3 mile light rail wasn't part of it

Woodward requires reconstruction. They have been pushing it back to meet the needs of M-1. I agree, it was first scheduled to be reconstructed several years ago. With the changes from light rail to State Fair to a trolled to New Center it messed up road reconstruction schedules pretty badly. To save money and to reduce inconvenience it all needs to be done at the same time. Its not like MDOT or Detroit have money to burn.

[Honky Tonk]

Detroit could sell a few paintings......

[rbdetsport]

Woodward requires reconstruction. They have been pushing it back to meet the needs of M-1. I agree, it was first scheduled to be reconstructed several years ago. With the changes from light rail to State Fair to a trolled to New Center it messed up road reconstruction schedules pretty badly. To save money and to reduce inconvenience it all needs to be done at the same time. Its not like MDOT or Detroit have money to burn.

M-1 Rail is not a trolley.. It is a Modern Streetcar. The vehicles that are used in this system are the same width as Light Rail. If/When the system expands north on Woodward, the system will be light rail. The proposed route is too short to act as a light rail system.

[bailey]

M-1 Rail is not a trolley.. It is a Modern Streetcar. The vehicles that are used in this system are the same width as Light Rail. If/When the system expands north on Woodward, the system will be light rail. The proposed route is too short to act as a light rail system.

...since it's never going to be expanded, as every.single.plan to ever be given serious backing by the powers-that-be demand only BRT and zero rail, then it's a trolley.

[dtowncitylover]

...since it's never going to be expanded, as every.single.plan to ever be given serious backing by the powers-that-be demand only BRT and zero rail, then it's a trolley.

So what if it's a trolley? Streetcar, tram, and trolley are all synonyms in US English. Stop making it seem like it's a bad thing. The only bad thing about this is the length of the system. Yes 3.3 miles isn't as far as it should be, but it is a good starting point in a town that hasn't seen this in 2 generations.

Just because BRT is being demanded now, doesn't mean it can't be rail. The original transit plan in 2008 called for some BRT routes to be eventually replaced by LRT routes.

Saying over and over "it's not going to expanded" doesn't make it the truth it's not going to be expanded, so please save your breath.

[Bham1982]

So what if it's a trolley? Streetcar, tram, and trolley are all synonyms in US English. Stop making it seem like it's a bad thing. The only bad thing about this is the length of the system. Yes 3.3 miles isn't as far as it should be, but it is a good starting point in a town that hasn't seen this in 2 generations.

Since when are the 1980's "two generations ago"? The People Mover was built in the 80's, and was a much bigger rail transit investment.

And, of course, we already had a trolley line installed in the late 70's, then torn out in the late 90's. I wonder if this toonerville trolley will have a longer lifespan.

[dtowncitylover]

Since when are the 1980's "two generations ago"? The People Mover was built in the 80's, and was a much bigger rail transit investment.

And, of course, we already had a trolley line installed in the late 70's, then torn out in the late 90's. I wonder if this toonerville trolley will have a longer lifespan.

The PM is a joke/waste, we all know this. The last time Detroit saw true mass transit was up until 1956, I would call that 2 generations ago, almost 3!

And your second comment is the funniest thing I have ever read. The Washington Trolley was a heritage line for fun. There was nothing expected out of it except nostalgia and an amusing 5 block ride.

M-1 is trying to become an economic booster and catalyst for the 3 neighborhoods it's going to serve. It's going 3.3 miles through the heart of Detroit, full residents, workers, and students.

Try to have decent anecdotes, at least.

[professorscott]

If BRT will service Woodward from Downtown to Pontiac, and there are NO plans to extend the M-1 Rail past Grand Boulevard, then why not just extend the People Mover to the New Center Area and NOT BUILD M-1. It would serve the same purpose as M-1, be grade-separated and thus not affected by traffic, cost just a little bit more, and according to the below 2007 study, it would not require purchasing any additional rail cars and PeopleMover employees [[because the existing cars are operating at well under capacity). It would make the PeopleMover system downtown so much more useful.

"This expanded system would be able to effectively function with the present fleet of vehicles, existing staff levels, and current maintenance and
operational control facility, while serving the entire Woodward corridor."

http://drcurryassociates.net/discussionpaper.html

Both Vancouver and Miami expanded on their People Mover systems.

The authorship of the cited paper tells you everything you need to know. Mr. Marsden Burger is a huge fan of "personal rapid transit", elevated minitaxis that in theory provide a service like a taxi for the cost of a bus ride, and in practice will never work at all. He likes things elevated, automated and small, so the DPM, being elevated and automated, is as close to Nirvana for him as things will ever get.

His statement that the People Mover can be extended at all - the number of manufacturers of the track technology is precisely zero - much less that it can be done for the paltry sum of money he claims [[$200M) is backed by nothing but his own wishes. The paper is just a puffery, an opinion piece written by someone whose opinions are already well known. If it was reasonable to extend DPM, it would have been very seriously considered when the initial concept of M1 Rail was being looked at in 2007 or so. But it isn't, so it wasn't.

[casscorridor]

The PM is a joke/waste, we all know this. The last time Detroit saw true mass transit was up until 1956, I would call that 2 generations ago, almost 3!

Detroit never had true mass transit. The streetcar system was the ancestor of the modern bus system. The lines were long and the cars slow moving and intermixed with auto traffic... essentially buses on tracks. Plans for building an actual mass transit system were put forth at least 4 separate times during the 20th century, all of which failed. I'm not exactly sure, but two or three of the plans had a subway on Woodward at the very least. There were also plans floated for elevated rail, light rail, and rail embedded into the freeway median. None of them came to fruition. The people mover was a failure because the vision of a whole system was abandoned for a standalone single-track loop. I would also call the most recent attempt a failure because all we are left with is a 3 mile streetcar that will return slow-moving streetcars that get stuck in traffic, while the plan initially called for separate ROW and far-spaced stations and trains running at high speeds. I still support M1 rail though, as it will be an improvement and future expansions can be built to full light-rail specifications. Detroit is a transit nightmare, but it can still be made right with enough ambition.

[Mackinaw]

Is it really true that M1 will have to wait for traffic? Will cars get to drive along its tracks? I haven't heard this.

[professorscott]

Is it really true that M1 will have to wait for traffic? Will cars get to drive along its tracks? I haven't heard this.

It's true-ish. People will be able to drive on the track lane but the streetcar will have signal prioritization technology so that it [[and the cars in front of it) won't spend a lot of time waiting at red lights. By the way, all the way back to 2007 when we were first considering this, it was always the case that it would be done this way. MDOT was not willing to take away a travel lane in order for the streetcar to get its own lane.

When Detroit was doing its work, their consultant simply ignored this and pretended MDOT would do what MDOT had explicitly said it would not do; that's why they were able to put together fantasy presentations showing the trains in their own dedicated space.

[dtowncitylover]

Detroit never had true mass transit. The streetcar system was the ancestor of the modern bus system. The lines were long and the cars slow moving and intermixed with auto traffic... essentially buses on tracks.

Hmmmmmm...I disagree. I separate the terms "mass transit" and "rapid transit". Detroit had an extensive interurban and streetcar system that, if just kept to major routes and routinely upgraded over time, would be a workable system today. Detroit had streetcars and commuter rail and buses, I would certainly call that mass transit.

I wouldn't call the streetcar system the ancestor of the buses because ancestors die off. The streetcar didn't have to die, it was just killed. It could've been upgraded, as I said, and re-done to make it more efficient. But the powers that be thought otherwise. And we all know what happened.

[stasu1213]

I would assume all the paving will be done at once, i.e. after the tracks have been laid. Mobilization and demobilization costs $$$--it's cheaper to knock it all out at once than in stages.

So much for the light rail

[Hypestyles]

... what's this about a $12 million shortfall?