Cash for clunkers swindle

[Novine]

"So even though the average new car only gets 2.4 mpg more than the average 10 year old car, the government will pay $3,500 if someone buys a car that only gets 4mph more than their old car or a pickup that gets only 2mpg more than the trade in car. The more I learn about this program the more ludicrous it sounds."

He doesn't have to extrapolate anything. The numbers being reported by dealers show that the spread between old and new gas mileage is much higher than the average increase or the low end numbers that you listed.

"This doesn't take into account the "embedded energy" that will be wasted as many good cars are sent to the crusher."

What do you think happens to most cars that qualify as clunkers? These aren't pristine showroom models destined for the Concours d'Elegance. Most cars eventually get sent off to be recycled.

You don't have to like the program. Oppose it because you don't want tax dollars being spent this way. But you don't get to make up BS numbers and BS claims and call them facts when they are not based on anything factual or are contradicted by the facts.

[oladub]

"So even though the average new car only gets 2.4 mpg more than the average 10 year old car, the government will pay $3,500 if someone buys a car that only gets 4mph more than their old car or a pickup that gets only 2mpg more than the trade in car. The more I learn about this program the more ludicrous it sounds." -olafub...

You don't have to like the program. Oppose it because you don't want tax dollars being spent this way. But you don't get to make up BS numbers and BS claims and call them facts when they are not based on anything factual or are contradicted by the facts.

I just provided some [[BS) numbers courtesy of the US government and Edmunds information you recommended to exemplify how incredibly idiotic this progam is. The key figure is $3,000,000,000, the amount of money that the US government will have to borrow from China or just print, like Zimbabwe, until it is repaid by taxpayers who will no longer be able to spend it for things they want or need plus the interest they will owe to China or banks that own the Federal Reserve.

What are your numbers for how many extra car sales this scheme will produce vs. how many of these cars would have been traded in anyways, what is the number of extra miles per gallon the cars sold under this program will have, how much fuel will be used to ship new cars 7,000 mile from Japan, how much embedded energy will be scrapped? How does spending $3,000,000,000 on Japanese cars help our economy more than spending it on whatever taxpayers would otherwise have spent it on? Please cite your references and let us know how much bang for a buck we will get for $3,000,000,000 that we wouldn't get without it or how much more ecological bang for the buck we will get by spending $3,000,000,000 compared with if the government had just raised gas taxes $2 a gallon and reduced income tax by the same revenue neutral amount. You need to come up with some numbers instead dismissive references to "some guy"or calling government statistics "BS".

You didn't even comment on the fact that most Ameicans oppose C4C.

[mjs]

I can't see how some people think foreigners are going to get most of the sales. First, the vehicles have to get worse than 18 mpg so drivers of older fuel efficient vehicles like Camrys don't even qualify. Second, people will likely trade in the vehicles that do qualify, such as older trucks, SUVs, and full size cars for new trucks, SUVs, and full size cars. If they didn't prefer larger vehicles, they would have gotten smaller vehicles last year when gas was higher. Trucks, SUVs, and full size cars are more of the big three's market than Toyota and Honda's.

I'm also not seeing the future sales problems others are seeing or the future reposessions. Lots of people who own cars for ten years or more do so because they are more responsible with their credit and savings. They believe in living within their means or even below it. Obviously, even a year ago, any retard could get a home loan or car loan. The irresponsible people can't get in on this because they are either struggling to make payments on their newer vehicle or have shit credit and no cash. These frugal people need a reason to buy a new car before the old one is ready to go to pasture. CFC is it. I love that just for once, a government subsidy finally subsidizes the responsible people rather than always subsidizing the morons. The big spenders that always have new everything have had their chance and drove us into the ground; lets support the more responsible Americans in getting us out becuase they're the only ones left with any cash or credit.

[oladub]

mjs, Foreign car manufacturers shouldn't get any of the sales. Obama wasn't elected to be the President of Japan. 53% of the purchased cars were made by non-big three companies although some of those cars were assembled in the US. Chrysler is having problems supplying its better fuel mileage vehicles because its plants have been shut down for two months. Toyota says it will have no problems meeting demand except for its Prius model. The new vehicles average 9.6mpg better fuel efficiency than the mostly US made vehicles turned in. [[15.8mpg vs 25.4mpg)

Roosevelt, to his credit, used much of his stimulus money to build infrastructure like huge hydro-electric projects, libraries, and post offices still used today. Something like 100% of the jobs he created went to Americans in contrast to the C4C program.

Frugal people I know only pay cash for cars although after lifetimes of pinching pennies, they would jump at the chance to take advantage of the government's largess. It sure beats cutting out 10,000 newspaper coupons to achieve the same discount. I read one case of a guy who was frugal or ecological and bought a car with 6 cylinders that got too good of a gas mileage to qualify for the trade in,. Had he purchased an 8 cylinder car of the same type, he could have qualified for at least $3,500. I'm even against frugal people being given handouts though. They would understand.

[EastSider]

What's the likely effect of this program on the markets for both used car parts and used cars themselves?

This program may be nice for the middle class who can afford the car payments, but what about the people who can't afford, who've never been able, to buy new? This takes perfectly useable cars [[despite the subjective "clunker" label) off the table permanently. Will the average cost of used cars and the parts go up?

Liberals will sleep better, believing they made a difference. Poor folks...meh...maybe not so well, not sure how they'll afford their next car. Oh wait, I know...let's create another government program!

[old guy]

Man, you folks are like a ray of sunshine.

[EastSider]

And when we're in debt up to our eyeballs, and both sides acknowledge Americans collectively have borrowed too much for too long, where is the sense in another program that induces people to take on more debt?

[Detwa]

Next we'll have a program that lets Americans buy a new HD LCD TV, at least a 42", because we deserve it, don't we? God forbid we have to continue watching non-HD shows, we need to have sharper images of the news reporting on all of the foreclosures and unemployment lines.

I hope it works out the way everyone thinks it will, its just that right now, the last thing we need is a new car in the driveway. Our vanity and sense of entitlement is what got us here today, and all I see is more programs to help us buy more stuff, instead of programs to help us earn, save, invest, or educate. It's just more STUFF.

[luckycar]

The price of used cars will go up.At the wholesale level,there is a lot of upward pressure on prices because alot of the car dealers who sold new are now getting into used cars.Combine this with the C4C program,and you can see where prices will go.Good vehicles are taken off the market,the price for those same vehicles sitting on used car lots will go up.Or at the very least,they will not have as much bargining room.Top dollar,or "stupid money",is being paid for cars at auctions.This is because the supply is drying up.Just some used car 101....

[EastSider]

So as used car prices rise, are the working poor more able or less able to afford a car?

[Danny]

This Cash or Clunkers insentives is really boosting the automotive indiustry. Ford, Chrsyler and GM reported increase profits. But will it last?