When it's all said and done... Detroit - Renaissance or Continuing Decline?

[FlyOnTheWall]

And you know this because you spend so much time in Detroit? Or any city, for that matter?

Lets see Detroit several years. Several months to a couple years in different cities such as Tokyo, Madrid, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Tampa, and other cities for shorter periods of time. No, I suppose I don't know anything about cities and city life.

Yeah, no thanks. We grew up with doom prophets like you: they were our parents, neighbors, members of the community. I think we can pass on learning pessimism and giving up. We'll be just fine without your, *AHEM* "help".

Your generation had its turn, and it left our cities devastated. We've got the wheel now, thanks. Go watch television.

LOL Must have hit a bit of a nerve with you. Was it that you were watching television when these people tried to teach you honesty and integrity?

[jimmyr]

Your generation had its turn, and it left our cities devastated.

Detroit isn't the only city in America. You have a city vibe, with safety and every amenity 10 minutes away in Royal Oak. Two hours away you have Grand Rapids. And four hours away you have Chicago, Indianapolis, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh. All of those cities are in vastly better shape than Detroit. Nobody is forcing you to stick around and try to pick up the pieces in Detroit. Well, unless you don't have skills or marketability that would net you a job in a different city. Grand Rapids and Chicago are two of the greatest cities in the country.

[313WX]

Grand Rapids...are two of the greatest cities in the country.

^^^Does a poster have any credibility when they say stuff like this?

[poobert]

[QUOTE=jimmyr;433321]You have a city vibe, with safety and every amenity 10 minutes away in Royal Oak.[QUOTE=jimmyr;433321]

The bustling metropolis of Royal Oak? You have a "suburb with a main street" vibe. Also if by "every amenity" you mean "some restaurants" then fine.

[QUOTE=jimmyr;433321]Grand Rapids and Chicago are two of the greatest cities in the country.[QUOTE=jimmyr;433321]

Have you ever been outside of the Midwest? Outside of Southfield? Outside of your house? Seriously: what the hell?

New York. Chicago. Los Angeles. Philadelphia. Boston. New Orleans. San Francisco. Denver. Seattle. Grand Rapids. Royal Oak. See what I did there? The last two should make you say "what the hell?"

[jimmyr]

New York. Chicago. Los Angeles. Philadelphia. Boston. New Orleans. San Francisco. Denver. Seattle. Grand Rapids. Royal Oak. See what I did there? The last two should make you say "what the hell?"

This year alone I've spent 2 weeks in Grand Rapids, 4 weeks in Chicago and 4 weeks in San Francisco. And in 2013 I was in every city you listed, except for New Orleans.

I am very in touch with reality. Grand Rapids and Chicago are not only two of the greatest cities in the nation, they're incredibly easy moves for SE Michigan residents, which has made them strong draws versus really big move places like San Fran, Boston, etc.

[dtowncitylover]

BUT!!! Detroit can't be like other cities because, because IT JUST CAN'T! An urban, liveable, stable Detroit?! NO WAY! WHY? Just because that's why!

You're not in touch with reality if you think Royal Oak is going to supplant Detroit as a dense, liveable urban core. [[Psstt: there isn't even a hotel in downtown Royal Oak and there's barely any shopping left)

[jimmyr]

You're not in touch with reality if you think Royal Oak is going to supplant Detroit as a dense, liveable urban core.

Breaking news: it has been for 10-15 years.

[mwilbert]

The region isn't broke and bankrupt, Detroit is. The region doesn't want to go bankrupt trying to fix Detroit. Why throw good money after bad?

Has the region been throwing a lot of money at Detroit? But it is pretty obvious why the region has an interest in a more functional center city--if nothing else, one of the reasons that the region has trouble retaining its young population is the lack of a normal urban core to the region. Clearly there are a lot of people who don't either don't think this is a problem, or don't think the problem is soluble. In my opinion, the people who think the former are delusional, and the people who think the latter are wrong, with the proviso that Detroit can provide that core without all of Detroit being populated. In general the populated areas outlined by Detroit Future City are probably fairly close to what is feasible in the foreseeable future, and that would be more than adequate.

[dtowncitylover]

breaking news: it has been for a decade plus

Then you have no idea what an urban core is. Royal Oak is not a business center, an arts center, no longer a shopping center, or is it a population center, it's not a hub for anything. I live here, I know. We have a nightlife, which the powers that be have decided to invest in and proved to be the wrong move. Downtown Royal Oak should not be the urban core of a metro region of 4 million people, we can't support it. ABE is a fine example.

[poobert]

Breaking news: it has been for 10-15 years.

Call the Fire Department, this one's outta control!

[sumas]

Honestly, I am enjoying this thread, so many ex pats congratulating themselves for "escaping". Doubt it occurs to them that we who never left or returned are the new pioneers. We do what we can to help with community programs but it really is for the next generation to map a new path.I have stated before, I am not trapped here. I want to be here. Oops, I am being shirty again.

[motz]

Breaking news: it has been for 10-15 years.

Man, it's been a while since someone has so blatantly trolled around here. It's pretty cute though.

And yeah, there are some of us who do love this city, do have faith in this city, and will try our hardest to be a part of making Detroit work again. We know crime and corruption are issues, so please stop telling us stuff we experience every day. We are the ones who are willing to tackle problems, rather than the jimmyr/Fly crowd who wants to sit in the suburbs and piss and moan about how terrible things are without actually doing anything at all.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Detroit will never boom again....if your definition of "boom" is 1 million people and growing, as sort of the beacon of the middle class. It will definitely be a respectable city of 500,000+, but the demographic will definitely change throughout that process.

We're essentially going to see Detroit divide up into 10-12 different neighborhoods that are all sustainable with a LOT of urban prairie in between. And Greater Downtown, Indian Village, and Palmer Woods will be the 3 wealthiest "cities within the city".

And there will be people left behind/displaced or shuffled around in the process.

Cork twn yup - Excellent analysis, and if we're both around in 25-30 years we will most likely see exactly as you have described, and thats not a bad thing it's just evolution. All those beautiful homes and industrial might built between the teens and 1940's that were filled to the brim with large families and workers of Michigan natives, European immigrants and Southern migrants [[white and black) came for the work and the American Dream.... for a variety of reasons their attrition to greener pastures occurs to this day.

[jimmyr]

In what world do you guys live in that Royal Oak is not the "urban" hotspot for young college grads in SE Michigan? Royal Oak is about the only reason SE Michigan has been tolerable for the last 10-15 years for recent college grads. RO is pretty much everything we all wish Detroit could be: safe, walkable, high income, bars and restaurants, educated population, etc. Just because it doesn't have skyscrapers [[half? of which are abandoned) doesn't mean it's not the vibe Detroit desperately wants to cultivate. Not every neighborhood in Chicago has skyscrapers, are those not "urban" either? I think you guys are either in denial or are a little misguided as to what "urban" means.

[dtowncitylover]

In what world do you guys live in that Royal Oak is not the "urban" hotspot for young college grads in SE Michigan? Royal Oak is about the only reason SE Michigan has been tolerable for the last 10-15 years for recent college grads. RO is pretty much everything we all wish Detroit could be: safe, walkable, high income, bars and restaurants, educated population, etc. Just because it doesn't have skyscrapers [[half? of which are abandoned) doesn't mean it's not the vibe Detroit desperately wants to cultivate. Not every neighborhood in Chicago has skyscrapers, are those not "urban" either? I think you guys are either in denial or are a little misguided as to what "urban" means.

I know urban is not Royal Oak and would never consider it as such. Royal Oak isn't a neighborhood of Detroit, it's a SUBURB. Yes, it does have many amenities that Detroit needs to have, including safety and higher income, but we should not turn Metro Detroit into Metro Royal Oak.

And urban core also caters to ALL types, not just college grads. We need diversity. Just because some bros and sorority chicks go out on a Saturday doesn't make it an urban core.

And if you would ask most young adults, Royal Oak, Midtown, and Downtown all compete for the young crowd. Many YAs make the trek into the city for a real urban feel. Royal Oak is a hotspot for the 20/30s crowd, but so is midtown and downtown [[and Ferndale for that matter).

[jimmyr]

[[1) Many YAs make the trek into the city for a real urban feel.

[[2) Royal Oak is a hotspot for the 20/30s crowd, but so is midtown and downtown [[and Ferndale for that matter).

[[1) Like visiting Green Dot once in a while and then driving back to their apartment in Royal Oak?

[[2) There is absolutely nothing in Detroit that is currently a 'hotspot'. But again, your definition of 'hotspot' is likely off the mark, so I understand the confusion.

[dtowncitylover]

[[1) Like visiting Green Dot once in a while and then driving back to their apartment in Royal Oak?

[[2) There is absolutely nothing in Detroit that is currently a 'hotspot'. But again, your definition of 'hotspot' is likely off the mark, so I understand the confusion.

What?! Are you kidding me?! Then obviously you haven't visited in years. Mexicantown is a hotspot. Greektown is a hotspot. The many bars, restaurants, sporting events, cultural attractions, concerts, festivals make Midtown/Downtown one large hotspot.

There's nothing in Royal Oak, I couldn't do in Detroit. I can bar hop, I can see live shows [[theatre and concerts), I can see a movie. In fact there is more I can't do in Royal Oak that I can do in Detroit, like walk along a river, see the sports teams, go gambling, and see the arts.

[motz]

[[1) Like visiting Green Dot once in a while and then driving back to their apartment in Royal Oak?

[[2) There is absolutely nothing in Detroit that is currently a 'hotspot'. But again, your definition of 'hotspot' is likely off the mark, so I understand the confusion.

Royal Oak's time has past. Ferndale is the current hot spot. Detroit's neighborhoods, specifically Midtown, Woodbridge, Corktown and Downtown are really really on the up and coming. I am in the exact age range you describe, and have tons and tons of friends in that bracket too. I think I may have a little more personal knowledge on this than you.

Royal Oak = Feminine hygeiney bro hangout place [[Gotta be creative I guess??)
Ferndale = Hip but not too pretentious, the cool place to go
Midtown/Corktown = Up and coming with innovative restaurants and very reasonable rent compared to Royal Oak
Downtown = A great night out, great place to live if you don't work too far

Last time I was in Royal Oak was... back in November for a friends' birthday. It was at Bastone. It sucked a lot. No intention on going back any time soon.

[sumas]

Man, it's been a while since someone has so blatantly trolled around here. It's pretty cute though.

And yeah, there are some of us who do love this city, do have faith in this city, and will try our hardest to be a part of making Detroit work again. We know crime and corruption are issues, so please stop telling us stuff we experience every day. We are the ones who are willing to tackle problems, rather than the jimmyr/Fly crowd who wants to sit in the suburbs and piss and moan about how terrible things are without actually doing anything at all.

Motz, I love you. It seems like for every positive post there are 10 that tell us how bad we are. People like you will forge and chart a new future. Sumas

[erikd]

Do you think Phil Cooley will be written about in history books as a social reformer because he opened a rib shop? Do you think Dan Gilbert will be remembered 50 years from now as the savior of Detroit because he opened up an office and moved his suburban employees there? Will the new Red Wings arena go down as the final piece of the puzzle in Detroit's renaissance?

Or is it all a load of baloney, bread and circuses as a great American city continues to crumble? It could just be that you suffer from normalcy bias. It could just be that your numb. You can't drive the length of Grand River or Woodward or Gratiot or Jefferson and tell me that Detroit is a city on the rise.

So you have more places to drink and eat that you feel comfortable patronizing in Detroit than ever before. Is there not also less houses and more decay than ever before? We can't wait for the driftwood in the city's great tide of human misery to wash upon another's shore, so we can fill the empty lots with new condos for the more fortunate.

Is that a grand accomplishment? How will posterity remember us? We let Detroit die, but we saved a couple buildings and erected some Royal Oak-style lofts. I'm not happy.

It's called downsizing, folks, and it's nothing to glamorize. We can only pray and hope for a different future.

I think that the future of Detroit, and America in general, will turn out to be much different than the vast majority of people envision. After 60 years of suburban sprawl and auto-centric development, most Americans, and especially metro Detroiters, have come to believe that America will be a suburban nation forever.

I find this vision of the future to be highly unlikely, because the energy and financial inputs required to to maintain a sprawling, auto-centric, low-density, high-infrastucture living arrangement are simply not sustainable.

The suburban experiment that America embarked on after WW2 is just that... an experiment. This is an unsustainable anomaly that was only possible because of the confluence of an immense amount of economic growth in America due to the widespread destruction of the other leading industrialized nations during the war, coupled with an unprecedented availability of cheap energy.

Now that the era of American dominance in manufacturing and economic power has passed its peak and is in decline, we are seeing a long-term downward trend of wealth and income for the vast majority of Americans. When you couple this with the rising cost to extract and refine oil, and the increasing global demand for this limited resource, as other nations continue to catch up to America in terms of wealth and economic power, it is clear that America will simply not be able to consume the significantly disproportionate share of available global economic and energy resources that we have not only become accustomed to, but are in fact dependent on to maintain this incredibly inefficient, wasteful, and unsustainable suburban system that we have constructed.

As the resources required to maintain the auto-centric suburban system continue to dwindle, Americans will be forced to drive less, downsize their oversized homes, and our various levels of government will be forced to spend less on infrastructure, which means fewer expansion projects, and a greater focus on infill development to create the higher densities needed to sustain infrastructure systems and government services.

The desire to sustain this unsustainable system is very strong, so it is hard to say exactly how long we will continue to prop it up, but when it starts to destabilize, the transition is likely to happen fast.

America went from a majority rural population to a majority urban population in a very short period of time, and then we went from a majority urban population to a majority suburban population in a similarly short period of time. When the economic benefits of one system tilt in favor of another, change can happen extremely fast.

[sumas]

Here is a fun note I have mentioned before, we have about 30 maybe 40 kids from England but mostly Germany living in my hood. Must be something that brings them here. They all have cars but mostly use their bikes to get around. I find it cute and enjoy their energy. I welcome all young people, it will be their synergy that will help Detroit morph.

I am old enough to remember the Detroit that was but welcome what it could become.

[TTime]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out and anyone who has a strong opinion on the city's revival or continued fall probably has reasons for their stance. My guess is those that see nothing but upside are probably either financially invested somehow in the "comeback" or they are homers or maybe they just need some sort of cause to believe in to get them through the day. On the flip side, those that predict it's continued fall have most likely been burned by Detroit in some way or they simply don't like it. The truth is that no one knows what the hell is going to happen over the next 20 years and the most likely outcome is that the city will be fairly similar to what it is right now. I have a hard time understanding why some people think the city is on the verge of some sort of boom but stranger things have happened and to the people who think it's going to get worse, that is hard to imagine that as well. Some of the pro Detroit crowd are very passionate about this town for sure and that is admirable but at the same time you have to realize that this place hasn't been good to a lot of people so while they may come across as naysayer pessimists they probably have their reasons.

[sumas]

[QUOTE=FlyOnTheWall;433317]Lets see Detroit several years. Several months to a couple years in different cities such as Tokyo, Madrid, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Tampa, and other cities for shorter periods of time. No, I suppose I don't know anything about cities and city life.

That's a little showoffy. Want to play that game, my husband was in international marketing pretty much been every where world wide. We chose to retire in Detroit. According to you we must be insane. Overall with minor glitches Detroit has been good to us. Love my home, love my neighbors, area kids very respectful, shopping is actually plentiful, merchants and restaurants know our names, we are near downtown, Eastern Market, my church is a stunning historic building. Plenty of activities nearby, good hospitals. charter and public schools proactive, the list could go on and on.

Detroit is our home town and we came home and it has been very good to us. Of course keep trashing Detroit, it must be so much fun. It wiil be reimagined by our youth. Different but that's fine. I have faith. A little knowledge too, I live here.

[FlyOnTheWall]

Lets see Detroit several years. Several months to a couple years in different cities such as Tokyo, Madrid, Indianapolis, Atlanta, Tampa, and other cities for shorter periods of time. No, I suppose I don't know anything about cities and city life.

That's a little showoffy.

That was in answer to someone that questioned my knowledge about cities and if I had ever even lived in one. Hey, there are many people that have traveled the world much more than me. I sort of envy them.

BTW I really liked Detroit, just didn't like the crime rate.

[sumas]

That was in answer to someone that questioned my knowledge about cities and if I had ever even lived in one. Hey, there are many people that have traveled the world much more than me. I sort of envy them.

BTW I really liked Detroit, just didn't like the crime rate.

Hey nicest thing you have said. No one denies crime is high but we as a city are attempting to remedy it. We are armed and alarmed, the security my house has is awesome. I am not afraid, just careful. Depending on destinations we generally have a dog or two in the car. I have area kids make sure they have a buddy with them. If they don't I loan them a dog