When it's all said and done... Detroit - Renaissance or Continuing Decline?

[jimmyr]

And these are problems that can be solved and I would say the first two are being actively combated against to the best of DPD and other agencies' abilities. Illiteracy could be fought against if we didn't have such an underfunded and weak school system that's competing with the charter school system, which it shouldn't have to.

Have you looked at the city council? What's changed? Who was fired from the Coleman Young building? How many municipal workers [[water, lights, etc., etc.) were fired for being illiterate and unqualified for their job? Orr/Snyder didn't have the power to sack the large volume of people that really need to be gone. The losers are salivating at the thought of Orr heading back to D.C. so it can be "bidness as usual" in Detroit.

[FlyOnTheWall]

I always find everyones comments interesting. Sure wish more of it was positive though.

I positively think Belle Isle will be a better place this summer than last summer.

[nain rouge]

Downtown has not been this crowded in decades! So, I see this effort as one that I think might really work... even if it puts us "normals" out of the mix...

I'm a downer on Detroit as a growing city, but I do think Midtown and Downtown will come back in some capacity. Even if Metro Detroit declines in population, it'll still be an area of well over 3 million people for the foreseeable future, and that kind of population demands an urban center in today's world. If anything, I think the death of Detroit has been good for greater downtown.

What once pushed people away from the center of Detroit has been virtually erased or extremely marginalized. If you walk around the lower Cass Corridor, where the social services are located, you can still see the Detroit that kept Joe and Jane Trust Fund away. But with the closing of the Temple Hotel and other institutions, you can see how even that area is slowly being "cleansed", too. The so-called blank canvas of Detroit has been a golden opportunity for gentrifiers to imprint their own values on the area wholesale.

The unfortunate cost of this is that Detroit's future horizons are being limited. It will NEVER be a great urban center again. Too much has been destroyed, and where is the economic thrust to rebuild Detroit in its entirety going to come from? Unless we invent something as important as cars again, it's virtually impossible. We can't afford it.

The realities of new Detroit are lower density and economic output.

[jimmyr]

"...where is the economic thrust to rebuild Detroit in its entirety going to come from? Unless we invent something as important as cars again, it's virtually impossible."

Bingo.

[dtowncitylover]

The bailout of Chrysler and GM was absolutely a bailout of Detroit. Even the national media called it that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

Ok so how much money did the city get?

We can't always be free from corruption. There were plenty of corrupt mayors before Young, it didn't start with him. But we can be ever vigilant about curbing it. I recall hearing a radio ad on an NYC newsradio station about a phone line to call to report corruption. Maybe Detroit needs that? And yes I have seen City Council, it's a hell of a lot better than 5 years ago!

[dtowncitylover]

[/COLOR]The unfortunate cost of this is that Detroit's future horizons are being limited. It will NEVER be a great urban center again. Too much has been destroyed, and where is the economic thrust to rebuild Detroit in its entirety going to come from? Unless we invent something as important as cars again, it's virtually impossible. We can't afford it.
The realities of new Detroit are lower density and economic output.

Great, let's rely on capitalism again to BOOM Detroit just so it can abandon it again eventually. I don't think that's what Detroit should do, wait around and twiddle our thumbs awaiting the next Henry Ford. We have the ability to stabilize the city and revitalize it for the people here now and create a new urban environment.

Again, you can't prove that Detroit is never going to be a great urban center, though I know I can't disprove it either. Though you seem to contradict yourself because you want to see an urban center for the city and then say that can never happen.

My theory is that if we can grow downtown and midtown [[including Lafayette Park, Corktown, and Woodbridge), and strengthen city services we will for sure see growth in the collar neighborhoods around the city center. Which could eventually lead to growth in other neighborhoods farther out.

I don't think we need an economic thrust, we need stability and attractiveness. That will lead to growth.

Dresden was destroyed. So was Hiroshima. OK? What's your point? we rebuild. Our city motto mentions that!

[Dan Wesson]

Originally Posted by sumas
I always find everyones comments interesting. Sure wish more of it was positive though.

The Fly say;

I positively think Belle Isle will be a better place this summer than last summer.


And I say...

April showers bring May flowers!

[motz]

I always find everyones comments interesting. Sure wish more of it was positive though.

jimmyr and FlyOnTheWall are especially interesting. I want to know their relationship to Detroit, especially if its "Well my parents were raised there and I live in Novi now. I really like going to Hockey and Baseball games".

[FlyOnTheWall]

Illiteracy could be fought against if we didn't have such an underfunded and weak school system that's competing with the charter school system, which it shouldn't have to.

I am actively involved with a Charter School upstate. I'll give you a couple of facts and ask you to do a little investigation on your own.
Fact 1: Charter schools run on less money than the normal public school.
Fact 2: Charter schools cannot do the bond issue like public schools as per state law.
Fact 3: Charter schools must teach to the same standards as public schools.
Fact 4: There is a lot of misleading information about charter schools put out by, you guessed it.... Public schools and the teachers unions.

Check out how charter schools work and get funding and please get it from someplace other than your local public school and their teachers.

BTW the public school system is not underfunded. It is under led because the people at the top are NOT doing their job. Sort of like the elected leaders of Detroit!

[313WX]

jimmyr and FlyOnTheWall are especially interesting. I want to know their relationship to Detroit, especially if its "Well my parents were raised there and I live in Novi now. I really like going to Hockey and Baseball games".

Probably...

If it walks, talks and looks like a duck, it's certainly no horse.

Either that or they're one of those people in their 80s and 90s who remember when white people still lived in Delray, Kerns was Hudson's biggest competitor and the street cars ran everywhere.

[dtowncitylover]

I am actively involved with a Charter School upstate. I'll give you a couple of facts and ask you to do a little investigation on your own.
Fact 1: Charter schools run on less money than the normal public school.
Fact 2: Charter schools cannot do the bond issue like public schools as per state law.
Fact 3: Charter schools must teach to the same standards as public schools.
Fact 4: There is a lot of misleading information about charter schools put out by, you guessed it.... Public schools and the teachers unions.

Check out how charter schools work and get funding and please get it from someplace other than your local public school and their teachers.

BTW the public school system is not underfunded. It is under led because the people at the top are NOT doing their job. Sort of like the elected leaders of Detroit!

Another weird thing the US does.

"We don't like public schools so we're going to create a shadow public school system that isn't as well funded as public schools so that it with siphon students from the public school and make their parents believe they're getting a better education when in fact we have no idea if they actually are or not."

Makes total sense to me.

[jimmyr]

jimmyr and FlyOnTheWall are especially interesting. I want to know their relationship to Detroit, especially if its "Well my parents were raised there and I live in Novi now. I really like going to Hockey and Baseball games".

I'd like to know how many job offers you Detroit dreamers have turned down outside of Detroit or the state of Michigan. [[But I already know the answer.)

[dtowncitylover]

I'd like to know how many job offers you Detroit dreamers have turned down outside of Detroit or the state of Michigan. [[But I already know the answer.)

What does that even mean?

[FlyOnTheWall]

jimmyr and FlyOnTheWall are especially interesting. I want to know their relationship to Detroit, especially if its "Well my parents were raised there and I live in Novi now. I really like going to Hockey and Baseball games".

You aren't far from wrong about me except that Detroit drove me out. I spent much of my childhood in Detroit. Went to Ste Annes school. Loved it! Loved going downtown [[via streetcar) to the Saturday afternoon movies. Tried working in Detroit after graduating high school. That didn't work out. I didn't like being mugged. Still love what Detroit was and would move back if the crime and corruption could be solved. Alas, that won't happen in my lifetime.

Personally, I care little for Hockey or Baseball, but Football is another whole different thing.

[FlyOnTheWall]

Another weird thing the US does.

"We don't like public schools so we're going to create a shadow public school system that isn't as well funded as public schools so that it with siphon students from the public school and make their parents believe they're getting a better education when in fact we have no idea if they actually are or not."

Makes total sense to me.

I believe that it would be well for you to learn more about charter schools but I see you have your mind made up so will not discuss this subject further with you. What else can we discuss?

[dtowncitylover]

I believe that it would be well for you to learn more about charter schools but I see you have your mind made up so will not discuss this subject further with you. What else can we discuss?

I've researched charter schools. And I don't agree with them and think they shouldn't have been allowed to have been established.

[ghettopalmetto]

You aren't far from wrong about me except that Detroit drove me out. I spent much of my childhood in Detroit. Went to Ste Annes school. Loved it! Loved going downtown [[via streetcar) to the Saturday afternoon movies. Tried working in Detroit after graduating high school. That didn't work out. I didn't like being mugged. Still love what Detroit was and would move back if the crime and corruption could be solved. Alas, that won't happen in my lifetime.

Well, I'm sorry you got mugged so many moons ago. That notwithstanding, muggings happen all across the country, every day. But not every city looks like Detroit. So what's *really* happening?

I thought this was relevant to the discussion. Back in February, the Northeast Ohio Sustainable Communities Consortium--representing 12 counties, major cities, universities, foundations, and transportation planning organizations--completed a three-year study. The study involved input from over 5600 participants and residents.

This is a summary of what they found, and why even the most die-hard anti-urbanist in Southeast Michigan should give a hoot about Detroit:

The key problem identified by the study is that Northeast Ohioans are carrying a heavier and heavier tax burden as the region’s cities lose population and development sprawls further and further out into surrounding rural areas.

The region is building more roads, sewers, utility lines, schools and other facilities to serve newly developed areas, while abandoning urban neighborhoods and the infrastructure built to serve them.

And because Northeast Ohio’s population isn’t growing, taxpayers are footing the bill for a larger regional footprint that ultimately, they can’t afford.

...if current development trends continue in 2040, the wealthiest county in the region would be worse off, financially speaking, than the weakest county today.

While this group has no legally binding powers, they can use the data to persuade local governments to make suitable decisions:

The document identifies measurable goals that could change the future course of the region, such as stating that 81 percent of new housing and 91 percent of new jobs should be created within areas already developed, including cities. The current trend is that 74 percent of housing and only 62 percent of new jobs are being created in those areas today.

http://www.cleveland.com/architectur..._approves.html

As much as I appreciate FlyontheWall's commentary, he's clearly not part of the generation that is going to fix the problems in our major metropolitan cities. It's incumbent on today's 20-and-30-somethings to study the issues, identify the causes, and brainstorm solutions.

There isn't anything wrong with Detroit that can't be fixed by hard work, a bit of creativity, sheer grit and determination, and a few more warm bodies.

[jimmyr]

It's incumbent on today's 20-and-30-somethings to study the issues, identify the causes, and brainstorm solutions.

There isn't anything wrong with Detroit that can't be fixed by hard work, a bit of creativity, sheer grit and determination, and a few more warm bodies.

When 50% of college grads are leaving the state, the message is clear: 20-and-30-somethings aren't going to clean up your mess, and have their fun lifestyle suffer while waiting for this phantom "progress" you all are so certain is on the way. Unless Detroit makes some very bold incentive to put up with the region's dysfunctions, they'll continue to flee. Do you know how many "warm bodies" are needed to update your neglected infrastructure? A "few" alright...a few hundred thousand. The reality is that it's much easier to walk away and find a city that's not as in the hole.

[ghettopalmetto]

When 50% of college grads are leaving the state, the message is clear: 20-and-30-somethings aren't going to clean up your mess, and have their fun lifestyle suffer while waiting for this phantom "progress" you all are so certain is on the way.

Life is so much easier and productive if we just make ourselves cranky, troll internet forums, and give up. What were we thinking?

[iheartthed]

When 50% of college grads are leaving the state, the message is clear: 20-and-30-somethings aren't going to clean up your mess, and have their fun lifestyle suffer while waiting for this phantom "progress" you all are so certain is on the way. Unless Detroit makes some very bold incentive to put up with the region's dysfunctions, they'll continue to flee. Do you know how many "warm bodies" are needed to update your neglected infrastructure? A "few" alright...a few hundred thousand. The reality is that it's much easier to walk away and find a city that's not as in the hole.

Wait, didn't you just say that Metro Detroit doesn't need a strong city to be prosperous?

[dtowncitylover]

When 50% of college grads are leaving the state, the message is clear: 20-and-30-somethings aren't going to clean up your mess, and have their fun lifestyle suffer while waiting for this phantom "progress" you all are so certain is on the way. Unless Detroit makes some very bold incentive to put up with the region's dysfunctions, they'll continue to flee. Do you know how many "warm bodies" are needed to update your neglected infrastructure? A "few" alright...a few hundred thousand. The reality is that it's much easier to walk away and find a city that's not as in the hole.

I guess that many of those college grads, such as myself though I haven't left yet, don't WANT to leave. They NEED to leave. Of course how many of those grads aren't from Michigan and don't have a particular attachment? I don't blame them for leaving, I would love to live out east myself I just don't have the money to. Perhaps in time many, and a few people I know already have, will come back after living in an URBAN environment and help. And there are countless stories like that already.

And please, your attitude is just as much the problem and part of the mess and dysfunction.

So the question becomes how are we going to retain and allure young adults, both native and new, to the Metro Detroit area? Stability, affordability, urbanity, and attractiveness.

[motz]

So the question becomes how are we going to retain and allure young adults, both native and new, to the Metro Detroit area? Stability, affordability, urbanity, and attractiveness.

No, it's lower tax rates and charter schools and a miserable, failed city that the jimmyr crowd has refused to acknowledge needs to be fixed. That is what attracts the 20-30 set. Definitely not a city on the rebound, or a metro region with a strong urban core. Its not like the population flight from Detroit has affected southern Oakland/Macomb at all. I mean look at most of Warren, its beautiful and majestic with great schools right?

[FlyOnTheWall]

Well, I'm sorry you got mugged so many moons ago. That notwithstanding, muggings happen all across the country, every day. But not every city looks like Detroit. So what's *really* happening?

This is very true except that the rate of mugging is much higher in Detroit than most other places.

As much as I appreciate FlyontheWall's commentary, he's clearly not part of the generation that is going to fix the problems in our major metropolitan cities. It's incumbent on today's 20-and-30-somethings to study the issues, identify the causes, and brainstorm solutions.

There isn't anything wrong with Detroit that can't be fixed by hard work, a bit of creativity, sheer grit and determination, and a few more warm bodies.

You do nail the underlined above. I ain't fixing any of our major metropolitan cities, but maybe if young people listen to a bit of experience they can fix things. You did say "to study the issues, identify the causes, and brainstorm solutions".
Well, I know that if crime and corruption isn't fixed, illiteracy won't be fixed. If illiteracy isn't fixed, all the "hard work, a bit of creativity, sheer grit and determination, and a few more warm bodies" in the world won't stand a chance. I'm just asking that people identify the root problem and work on that first.

Detroit is going nowhere but down unless the crime and corruption problem is solved and I would really hate that.

[ghettopalmetto]

No, it's lower tax rates and charter schools and a miserable, failed city that the jimmyr crowd has refused to acknowledge needs to be fixed. That is what attracts the 20-30 set. Definitely not a city on the rebound, or a metro region with a strong urban core. Its not like the population flight from Detroit has affected southern Oakland/Macomb at all. I mean look at most of Warren, its beautiful and majestic with great schools right?

Damn those kids and their fun, exciting lives! In my day, we drove home from work to our aluminum-sided bungalows and had our stay-at-home wife cook us dinner before we fell asleep in the La-Z-Boy. How dare you want more than that.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is very true except that the rate of mugging is much higher in Detroit than most other places.

And you know this because you spend so much time in Detroit? Or any city, for that matter?

You do nail the underlined above. I ain't fixing any of our major metropolitan cities, but maybe if young people listen to a bit of experience they can fix things.

Yeah, no thanks. We grew up with doom prophets like you: they were our parents, neighbors, members of the community. I think we can pass on learning pessimism and giving up. We'll be just fine without your, *AHEM* "help".

Your generation had its turn, and it left our cities devastated. We've got the wheel now, thanks. Go watch television.