Warren is probably about to be sued over some weird religious stuff at city hall.

**brizee** · April-17-14, 11:55 AM

Folks chirping about their religion are only slightly less annoying than people chirping about how atheist they are.

Still Warren is about to get smacked upside the head for dumb behavior.

The national news is probably gonna pick this up and laugh at Detroit once again.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140416/METRO03/304160106/Warren-turns-down-request-anti-religion-display-city-hall

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-17-14, 12:00 PM

Says the mayor: “We can’t put up every display that everybody wants because the atrium would be filled with displays,”

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2zADQ7K8C

But there is always room for those pushing organized religion.

I would add that the folks chirping about their religion are more annoying then the atheists.The latter would not be there if not for the former. And its not surprising that even in this day and age and outside of the bible belt, those pushing religion are afforded more rights than others.

**Meddle** · April-17-14, 12:12 PM

I haven't read the article, but unless there are pro-religious displays, there should not be anti-religious displays.

Simple fact is, NEITHER should be in any publicly funded building.

**313WX** · April-17-14, 12:27 PM

Considering the town we're discussing, I'm probably asking a dumb question.

But why is a "Prayer Station" allowed at city hall, but not Anti-Religion stuff?

**Wesley Mouch** · April-17-14, 01:15 PM

One needs to consider that Christianity has been close to a state-religion for much of our history. So I am in favor of grandfathering in some religious references in our civic life -- but not adding. We can respect existing traditions while not bringing new ones along with us as we modernize our civic institutions. I just don't see the need for a fight here. No new religious activities from government. Existing traditions can continue to live for now out of respect for our elders. We seem to have forgotten how to get along. It requires some compromise -- not a quoting of a high court decision.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-17-14, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

One needs to consider that Christianity has been close to a state-religion for much of our history. So I am in favor of grandfathering in some religious references in our civic life -- but not adding. We can respect existing traditions while not bringing new ones along with us as we modernize our civic institutions. I just don't see the need for a fight here. No new religious activities from government. Existing traditions can continue to live for now out of respect for our elders. We seem to have forgotten how to get along. It requires some compromise -- not a quoting of a high court decision.

So basically you're in favor of grandfathering in beliefs that conform to your own.

**cman710** · April-17-14, 01:51 PM

If anyone is interested, you can read the Sixth Circuit's case involving Marshall and the City of Warren here. Undoubtedly, Marshall and his group did this to set the stage for another lawsuit.

**poobert** · April-17-14, 02:22 PM

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

**Ben** · April-17-14, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

Amen! [[in the sarcastic way) I agree totally. I don't understand why people need a "prayer station". What next, a "prayer station" in the food court at the mall? I'm a Christian, but I think that any person can pray to God, where ever they might be. I think that city hall is a place of government business, not displays of one's religious beliefs.

**Zacha341** · April-18-14, 07:55 AM

I'm with you on the points below. This could get really stupid, fast. I feel there should be no 'station' there [[Islam, Christian, Atheist etc.). Problem solved. If I have to go to any city hall I hope I've prayed already for some decent service for the problem requiring me to go there.

Originally Posted by poobert

...I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

**Bill Simpson** · April-18-14, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by poobert

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

On this holy day, please learn to live like Jesus.

**gpwforever** · April-19-14, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Who the hell would approve this? Warren is such a fucking armpit. If I walked into city hall and saw a "prayer station" my first reaction would be: what the shit?

So you can pull a permit and get a prayer? What a bunch of hillbillies. Of course a group is going rightfully challenge this. Guess how this could have all been avoided? By not agreeing to do something so stupid in the first place.

As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone.

As any person of faith, why would you want your religion tainted with something like city hall in the first place?

There are nearly 250 million Christians in the United States - over 3/4 of our population. There are nearly half a million churches in this country. I guess I don't see the need to throw a prayer station in Warren City Hall. Thankfully I'll never have to go to that godforsaken place.

"Warren is a fucking armpit" "What a bunch of hillbillies."
"As I've said before, I'm a Christian and my faith is important to me. As such, I respect the beliefs or non-beliefs of others and have no desire to force my faith on anyone."

Unless you are a hillbilly living in that fucking armpit Warren.

Happy Easter

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-17-14, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by cman710

If anyone is interested, you can read the Sixth Circuit's case involving Marshall and the City of Warren here. Undoubtedly, Marshall and his group did this to set the stage for another lawsuit.

They would have no reason to sue if the Christianist mayor didn't deny them equal access.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-17-14, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

So basically you're in favor of grandfathering in beliefs that conform to your own.

No. They are not my beliefs. I'm in favor of respect for traditions. I think they should be celebrated, not torn down by small thinking do-good ears in search of a cause that mostly upsets good people with mostly theoretical benefit to some grand social cause.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · April-17-14, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

No. They are not my beliefs. I'm in favor of respect for traditions. I think they should be celebrated, not torn down by small thinking do-good ears in search of a cause that mostly upsets good people with mostly theoretical benefit to some grand social cause.

No, you favor respect for certain traditions. And as for those to whom the traditions don't apply, too bad.

**finster** · April-18-14, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

One needs to consider that Christianity has been close to a state-religion for much of our history. So I am in favor of grandfathering in some religious references in our civic life -- but not adding. We can respect existing traditions while not bringing new ones along with us as we modernize our civic institutions. I just don't see the need for a fight here. No new religious activities from government. Existing traditions can continue to live for now out of respect for our elders. We seem to have forgotten how to get along. It requires some compromise -- not a quoting of a high court decision.

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here. I don't know much about it but the article states that the prayer station has been at city hall a long time and just leaving it be sounds OK to me. People who spend all there time ranting and raving fighting against stuff like this and those "oh so evil" city hall Christmas displays need to find a new hobby. From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason. If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

**Scottathew** · April-18-14, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here. I don't know much about it but the article states that the prayer station has been at city hall a long time and just leaving it be sounds OK to me. People who spend all there time ranting and raving fighting against stuff like this and those "oh so evil" city hall Christmas displays need to find a new hobby. From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason. If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

Government represents all, and should stay out of the business of religion.

People are so upset when they can't put their manager scene up at city hall, why the hell don't they just put one up on their front lawn? Or go to a church that shares their beliefs and put up a manger scene there?

I'm a Christian, but I have a lot of friends that aren't. I know atheists, Jewish folks, Muslims, and Hindus, and a few others I'm forgetting right now. I think it's unfair for their government to be promoting and accommodating religious beliefs of certain kind.

If you're so hell-bent on wanting a place to pray and worship, buy some land and make a new church. Keep it out of our government buildings.

**FbO Vorcha** · April-18-14, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by finster

If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

You're right, we do have bigger fish to fry. That being said, the people leading the freak-out about the city of Dearborn would be, and generally have been, FOX News and Conservative Christians. There have even been some laws passed prohibiting the instituting of any laws based on 'foreign' religions [[generally the intent of the law has been to ban Sharia).

Also, as an example of how this type of thing often goes:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1655249.html

**antongast** · April-18-14, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here.

This is like praising M.C. Escher for the functional utility of his staircases. Just because someone takes care to punch a strawman to his right and a strawman to his left whenever he constructs an argument does not make him a "sane voice of moderation." It just means he's practiced in the pundit's art of playing tricks on people's minds.

**canuck** · April-18-14, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

This is like praising M.C. Escher for the functional utility of his staircases. Just because someone takes care to punch a strawman to his right and a strawman to his left whenever he constructs an argument does not make him a "sane voice of moderation." It just means he's practiced in the pundit's art of playing tricks on people's minds.

Very elegant comment antongast. Youse have a way with words.

**antongast** · April-18-14, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Very elegant comment antongast. Youse have a way with words.

Thanks, but I tend to recklessly split infinitives.

**rb336** · April-18-14, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by finster

From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason.

They can find comfort in their own religious displays or those of their church/synagogue/mosque/temple. It has an exclusionary message when in the public square.

**erikd** · April-19-14, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by finster

Wesley, thanks for being a sane voice of moderation around here. I don't know much about it but the article states that the prayer station has been at city hall a long time and just leaving it be sounds OK to me. People who spend all there time ranting and raving fighting against stuff like this and those "oh so evil" city hall Christmas displays need to find a new hobby. From what I can tell a lot of good and decent people have lived and worked in the city of Warren over the years and if someone can find a little comfort from something like this than what is so terrible. This is what really bothers some people for some reason. If the city of Dearborn wanted to erect a small homage to Islam somewhere I'm sure many would freak out but it wouldn't bother me in the least. With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?

And here comes the straw man argument...

"With all the greater problems we seem to be having around here aren't there bigger fish to fry?"

What is the bigger fish to fry? Homelessness? The AIDS epidemic in Africa? Terrorism? Turmoil in the Middle East? The sovereignty of the Ukraine? Ending poverty in America?

Which "bigger fish" need to be fried before somebody can expect that their local government will comply with the first amendment? Does this guy need to solve world hunger before he has any right to demand that his city government abides by the US Constitution?

**mwilbert** · April-18-14, 02:35 PM

This doesn't seem like a good argument in this case. I'm reasonably sure our elders didn't expect a prayer station [[whatever that is) in random public buildings. This is a tradition of which I am unaware, probably because it doesn't exist.

**Honky Tonk** · April-18-14, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

This doesn't seem like a good argument in this case. I'm reasonably sure our elders didn't expect a prayer station [[whatever that is) in random public buildings. This is a tradition of which I am unaware, probably because it doesn't exist.

"Render onto Caesar what is Caesar's, and onto God what is God's"