Economic benefits of new light rail systems

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

San Diego has enviable transit; it also has a reputation for being one of the more efficient and honest big city governments in the country. Note, as well Detroit, they have frequently elected Republicans as mayor and to the city council. One party [[either party) = bad government.

[renf]

San Diego has a relatively highly educated population and the folks there made
the good decision to annex much of the outlying area. They also benefit
greatly from an influx of immigrants from around the world. However, San
Diego cannot claim to be the model of goverance propriety. I believe that
their mayor recently resigned for sexual inappropriate behavior. And Duke
Cunningham very effectively represented that area in Congress but is now
a guest of management at the Federal Prison system. If I recall correctly,
another San Diego mayor recently left office quickly because of gambling
debts.

[SDCC]

Under The Perfect Sun by authors Mike Davis , Kelly Mayhew and Jim Miller is required reading [[by certain professors) in US History 101, a somewhat shady San Diego history, just like most of America’s short history.

Filner [[Bob) is the former disgraced mayor who apparently couldn't keep his hands off of women, the man is 70 years old. The Filner “headlock” was the topic of several late night talk shows.
The other mayor I believe you are referring to is Dick Murphy…
I cut and paste this from Wikipedia:
“During Murphy's last term, the city faced serious fiscal problems from years of financial mismanagement by past city governments, problems including an underfunded pension program and a series of credit-score downgrades. The April 25, 2005 issue of Time Magazine listed him as one of the three worst big-city mayors in the United States. The other two worst mayors were Kwame Kilpatrick of Detroit [[small world) and John F Street of Philadelphia [[not in order). Shortly after the article appeared, Murphy, on April 25, 2005, announced his plans to resign as Mayor and resigned July 15, 2005”.
Additionally the San Diego Police department has been embroiled in their own sex scandal. One officer – Anthony Arevalos – was recently sentenced to 8 years in state prison for various felonies, one being soliciting sexual bribes. Another officer, Christopher Hays is facing criminal charges related to groping women during pat-downs, and demanding sexual favors from detained women.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Murphy

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loca...246032331.html

Picture perfect weather with more than its share of problems.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Yes, there are examples of bad politicians in San Diego, but they are notably the exceptions. They don't have incumbent councilmembers refuse to set foot in the state again for fear of arrest. City offices boast modern computers [[Detroit purchased them, too; they were noticeably not on office desks when Orr took over). And all their politicians combined were never convicted of as much as our beloved KK. And perhaps most telling, the corrupt few there don't have any defenders. There are still lunatic Kilpatrick supporters in Detroit. And their city is taxed less than Detroit, with an obviously better maintained infrastructure. While many CA cities have flirted with bankruptcy, I have never seen San Diego on a list of those cities.

[That Great Guy]

One possible way to pay for this is a tax on car insurance

For example, say you pay $2,500 per year. So, a small 15 percent tax would only be $375 per year.

[DetroitPlanner]

One possible way to pay for this is a tax on car insurance

For example, say you pay $2,500 per year. So, a small 15 percent tax would only be $375 per year.

Please explain how this statement relates to the economic benefits derived from the Woodward Streetcar project.

[jimmyr]

I have read about this M-1 project extensively. It is literally the most moronic and embarrassing boondoggle I have ever seen. Can an entire region really be this inept? Is this Gilbert's obsession and everyone is just yes-manning him? $140M to do what two $700,000 dedicated buses could accomplish. Mind boggling.

[jimmyr]

Use the $140M to pay off the college loans of any college degree holder who agrees to live in Detroit for 3 years. Average student loan debt in Michigan is $28,000. 5,000 college educated yuppies flooding into Detroit for 3 years will have much greater impact than homeless people riding up and down Woodward, or Quicken employees being forced to ride the thing to and fro work.

[ghettopalmetto]

I have read about this M-1 project extensively. It is literally the most moronic and embarrassing boondoggle I have ever seen. Can an entire region really be this inept? Is this Gilbert's obsession and everyone is just yes-manning him? $140M to do what two $700,000 dedicated buses could accomplish. Mind boggling.

The only thing mind-boggling is how you decided that two diesel buses [[don't those already exist on Woodward???) on a pothole-filled roadway are equivalent to frequent electric rail service.

Oh, I get it. You're just guessing, aren't you?

[DetroitPlanner]

The only thing mind-boggling is how you decided that two diesel buses [[don't those already exist on Woodward???) on a pothole-filled roadway are equivalent to frequent electric rail service.

Oh, I get it. You're just guessing, aren't you?

$700k would buy you a very nice bio-diesel hybrid bus with leather seats and wi-fi.

I think that people don't really understand how much of the cost of the project is going into stuff like reconstructing Woodward and putting in a streetscape. Both of these are needed as much as the streetcar if we want to see the Cass Corridor flourish.

Regarding paying off student loans. Much of the college debt is being held by people who were spoiled and privileged; or too lazy to finish. You could pretty much get the same education by going to WC3D for two years then Wayne State and save a boatload of cash. Of course you would not have the full college experience of living on your own and wrecklessly.

[ghettopalmetto]

Regarding paying off student loans. Much of the college debt is being held by people who were spoiled and privileged; or too lazy to finish. You could pretty much get the same education by going to WC3D for two years then Wayne State and save a boatload of cash. Of course you would not have the full college experience of living on your own and wrecklessly.

The spoiled and privileged don't have student loans--their folks paid cash for their educations. Those of us with loans [[and are current on the payments) have made sacrifices and worked our asses off. But I'll be happy to get off your lawn regardless.

[jimmyr]

$700k would buy you a very nice bio-diesel hybrid bus with leather seats and wi-fi.

Precisely why I typed $700k.

[Eber Brock Ward]

The spoiled and privileged don't have student loans--their folks paid cash for their educations. Those of us with loans [[and are current on the payments) have made sacrifices and worked our asses off. But I'll be happy to get off your lawn regardless.

This. Middle class and poor people have student loans, rarely rich folks.

[iheartthed]

Regarding paying off student loans. Much of the college debt is being held by people who were spoiled and privileged; or too lazy to finish. You could pretty much get the same education by going to WC3D for two years then Wayne State and save a boatload of cash. Of course you would not have the full college experience of living on your own and wrecklessly.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

[That Great Guy]

Please explain how this statement relates to the economic benefits derived from the Woodward Streetcar project.

For every dollar communities inves in public transportation generates approximatley $4 in economic returns

Source The American Public Transportation Association APTA

[DetroitPlanner]

For every dollar communities inves in public transportation generates approximatley $4 in economic returns

Source The American Public Transportation Association APTA

You posted about increasing revenues. The topic is benefits. When you get called on it you change your answer. Sourcing APTA is like sourcing road builders about widening roads. Of course they will say it has huge benefits, it is in their self interest.

[DetroitPlanner]

The spoiled and privileged don't have student loans--their folks paid cash for their educations. Those of us with loans [[and are current on the payments) have made sacrifices and worked our asses off. But I'll be happy to get off your lawn regardless.

I had my loans paid back even before I finished with grad school. I worked 70 hours a week while taking 3-4 classes a semester year round.

No one can deny that transit is seriously underfunded as it is. We should not take away any funding from it. That is why I pushed for BRT as a reasonable alternative. Guess What? I lost, you won. Now we are stuck with a much more higher cost system.

While you are on my lawn you can kiss my grass!

[professorscott]

No one can deny that transit is seriously underfunded as it is. We should not take away any funding from it. That is why I pushed for BRT as a reasonable alternative. Guess What? I lost, you won. Now we are stuck with a much more higher cost system.

You lost the battle but won the war. M1 Rail, which is being mostly built [[and, for a time, entirely operated) with private money, is the only rail we are likely to see for years, perhaps decades. All of the regional-scope transit studies will be heavily favoring BRT for the foreseeable future, if for no other reason than the RTA laws more or less require it.

[Hermod]

You posted about increasing revenues. The topic is benefits. When you get called on it you change your answer. Sourcing APTA is like sourcing road builders about widening roads. Of course they will say it has huge benefits, it is in their self interest.

I saw an article in April 2014 Progressive Railroading magazine. Transit ridership in the US in absolute numbers went up 2008-2012. Unfortunately, the population also increased so that the per capita rate of annual transit usage went down from 35 trips per year to 34 trips per year 2008-2012.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Both total and per capita use of rail in the coming years will increase because a) there will be more rail services [[of various kinds), and b) there is a limited reverse migration back into many urban centers, with greater proximity to trains. I would maintain a healthy skepticism about rail information in rail magazines [[note: I subscribe to 3 different rail magazines). While there is real information, there is also a pro-train agenda and often rose-colored reporting on new/proposed rail projects. Obviously, they are owned and staffed committed train lovers, which makes them wonderful but not unbiased.

I've been super busy and not reading or posting here much in the last month. I just read through this thread. So many off-topic posts! Kinda cracked me up. I am probably just as guilty as anyone, of course.

M1Rail will benefit businesses, residents, and visitors along the Woodward corridor. Whether it has a larger impact on the city and region will depend on how well it is integrated with BRT, city and suburban bus services, and on how those systems are operated. It's a great investment for the city, regardless, because private funds are picking up most of the tab. If they weren't there would be a need for more scrutiny of the costs and benefits, and the details of system design and operation. But you usually can't choose the restaurant when the other guy is picking up the tab; you just enjoy the meal.

[canuck]

The one thing that bothers me about M-1 as it stands is the possible lack of usage because of its limited length. The naysayers already have a field day-week-month-year in Detroit so that the least vacillation in usership portends doomsday, as per usual. If as Hermod suggested, the project had a significant suburban proportion; then maybe the bandwagon effect could develop amidst the other burbs. Who knows?

I would hope a suburban portion of rail connected to the city would create an expectation, a certain competitive spirit of collaboration in transit regionally.

[professorscott]

The one thing that bothers me about M-1 as it stands is the possible lack of usage because of its limited length.

The limited length is for a variety of reasons. First, there is significant development activity in the M1 Rail corridor but only along the length of the corridor. North of Grand Boulevard, nothing is happening. One of the hopes for M1 is that it catalyzes development to the immediate north of the northern terminus, and that will organically lead to gradual extension of the line.

Second, there was a well-known attempt to extend the route - the DTOGS city-managed project would have brought it to just south of Eight Mile. The difficulties with that were myriad, but to me the structural deficiency is that it went too far to be reasonably inexpensive but not far enough to make it useful for suburbanites. If it had gone to downtown Royal Oak, it would have stood a chance, but in the caustic politics of southeast Michigan, there was no way a city-owned anything was going to extend into the [[gasp) suburbs.

So I think of the 3.4 miles as a first step, and I think it might organically grow in two directions: north along Woodward, slowly, and east along Jefferson. But we'll see.

[DetroitPlanner]

The one thing that bothers me about M-1 as it stands is the possible lack of usage because of its limited length. The naysayers already have a field day-week-month-year in Detroit so that the least vacillation in usership portends doomsday, as per usual. If as Hermod suggested, the project had a significant suburban proportion; then maybe the bandwagon effect could develop amidst the other burbs. Who knows?

I would hope a suburban portion of rail connected to the city would create an expectation, a certain competitive spirit of collaboration in transit regionally.

I have heard numbers that surprised me. I can't recall what they were off the top of my head but ridership will be significant. There are a lot of small trips between Downtown and New Center via the University, Hospitals, Museums, dare I say stores [[as there certainly is getting to be a number of them!)

[iheartthed]

The limited length is for a variety of reasons. First, there is significant development activity in the M1 Rail corridor but only along the length of the corridor. North of Grand Boulevard, nothing is happening. One of the hopes for M1 is that it catalyzes development to the immediate north of the northern terminus, and that will organically lead to gradual extension of the line.

Second, there was a well-known attempt to extend the route - the DTOGS city-managed project would have brought it to just south of Eight Mile. The difficulties with that were myriad, but to me the structural deficiency is that it went too far to be reasonably inexpensive but not far enough to make it useful for suburbanites. If it had gone to downtown Royal Oak, it would have stood a chance, but in the caustic politics of southeast Michigan, there was no way a city-owned anything was going to extend into the [[gasp) suburbs.

So I think of the 3.4 miles as a first step, and I think it might organically grow in two directions: north along Woodward, slowly, and east along Jefferson. But we'll see.

I like the idea of east along Jefferson, but wouldn't it make more sense to go west on Michigan Avenue or North on Gratiot first?

[SDCC]

I think your trolley will sprout wings and grow from this modest line, which is in its infancy...Build it and it will develop and expand...you will also notice you are eligible for additional Federal dollars once the line is operational...