Why Have We Decided That A Guy Who Became A Billionaire Selling Us Cheap Pizza Is God

[wolverine]

The real threat was the possibility of moving to the Palace. After all this, people still can't get it through their skulls that this deal isn't really going to cost the city a damn thing, or, at most, very little, and it rids the city of a huge, empty plot of nothing. a plot of nothing for which, to my knowledge, nothing was ever planned

Just because it's being built on a plot of nothing doesn't mean it's a prudent planning decision. Detroit's downtown has a spatial continuity problem because of the freeways and stadia inhibits strong residential and business districts from growing. Really, it's an issue of desirability and freeways and stadiums are incompatible uses with residential and even offices in an urban context. People don't choose to be near their teams or have good freeway access next to where they live. People choose neighborhoods that have street life on a daily basis and storefronts instead of blank walls and overpasses.

[emu steve]

Just because it's being built on a plot of nothing doesn't mean it's a prudent planning decision. Detroit's downtown has a spatial continuity problem because of the freeways and stadia inhibits strong residential and business districts from growing. Really, it's an issue of desirability and freeways and stadiums are incompatible uses with residential and even offices in an urban context. People don't choose to be near their teams or have good freeway access next to where they live. People choose neighborhoods that have street life on a daily basis and storefronts instead of blank walls and overpasses.

I'm not sure if I follow you, but if I were 'designing' CBD, downtown, and Midtown, housing would be in Midtown starting at the Fisher working north. Employment and entertainment within downtown.

However, nothing much has happened in that area [[Midtown) except the townhouses on Woodward.

If there was the demand for hundreds of townhouses, apartments/condos or even singe family houses something should be perking by now. Nothing!

Hence, we had two choices: an arena or urban wasteland.

Let no one say in 10 years that because Ilitich wanted to build an arena that he prevented that Midtown area from developing into a residential area. That somehow he squeezed out residential development.

[rb336]

Let no one say in 10 years that because Ilitich wanted to build an arena that he prevented that Midtown area from developing into a residential area. That somehow he squeezed out residential development.

The arena district includes residential

[401don]

Just because it's being built on a plot of nothing doesn't mean it's a prudent planning decision. Detroit's downtown has a spatial continuity problem because of the freeways and stadia inhibits strong residential and business districts from growing. Really, it's an issue of desirability and freeways and stadiums are incompatible uses with residential and even offices in an urban context. People don't choose to be near their teams or have good freeway access next to where they live. People choose neighborhoods that have street life on a daily basis and storefronts instead of blank walls and overpasses.

Take a look at Toronto, nothing but massive condos sandwiched between the Gardner Expwy, Air Canada and Rogers Centres.

[canuck]

Take a look at Toronto, nothing but massive condos sandwiched between the Gardner Expwy, Air Canada and Rogers Centres.

I was about to make that very comment re; wolverine's. It may be an unpleasant reality, but Detroit at least has the land available, and needs the thrust that new sports complexes can bring it. Downtown is where it should happen.

[Bham1982]

I was about to make that very comment re; wolverine's. It may be an unpleasant reality, but Detroit at least has the land available, and needs the thrust that new sports complexes can bring it. Downtown is where it should happen.

Correlation obviously doesn't imply causation.

Downtown Toronto is in a massive building boom of condos. To imply it's because they built the Rogers Center on vacant land 30 years ago is absurd. If anything, the sports stadia inhibit development.

[Honky Tonk]

I was about to make that very comment re; wolverine's. It may be an unpleasant reality, but Detroit at least has the land available, and needs the thrust that new sports complexes can bring it. Downtown is where it should happen.

We're already being "thrusted" by Ilitch, if you get my drift...

[canuck]

We're already being "thrusted" by Ilitch, if you get my drift...

True. My lower back hurts thinking back to the Jeffrey Loria debacle in this city...

I am totally frustrated by the capitalistic BS that underlies all of our efforts at city building too. The wealth is more concentrated and the extremely wealthy are therefore more arrogant in negotiating deals with the civic powers that be.

I am also a realist when it comes to the kind of things that make a city tick, and Detroit is a sports driven city from the start. It is not an emerging ma With all its problems, it needs to get punters into the city center and find ways of generating interest around the new venues, hotels, convention centers and whatnot. It is less a question of arenas vs other econonomy boosters and more a question of how to attract and retain residents and visitors if these new projects come online.

The developers need to be taken to task on these responsibilities, and the city committees and boards of trade must be more dynamic to that end.

[Honky Tonk]

I had a friend that lived in Detroit while working here. She bought a condo @ the Crosswinds. Game days, it was hell with the crowds, cops, people parked wherever, congestion, and noise. It's not my thing to live that type of situation.

[Bham1982]

I had a friend that lived in Detroit while working here. She bought a condo @ the Crosswinds. Game days, it was hell with the crowds, cops, people parked wherever, congestion, and noise. It's not my thing to live that type of situation.

I am amazed that people in this thread actually defend this sort of living as popular.

If you live next to a sports stadium, most of the time you will be living in an empty wasteland, and about 10% of the time you will be living in a traffic-choked nightmare of drunken louts. Fun times!

There is nothing wrong with sports stadia per se, but they are incompatible with pedestrian/transit centered urban development, and not generally desirable for urban living. If Illitch wants to build his new arena, he should be encouraged to do so, as long as 1. No subsidies and 2. No expectations of spinoff development outside of bars.

[canuck]

Your assertion that sports venues inhibit development is too pretty twisted. How about this tower built as a residential condo development tied to the Bell Centre and exhibiting the team's logotype?

Across the street is another 50 storey condo called L'Avenue which refers to L'Avenue des Canadiens. Deloitte has a new 32 storey office tower built on the other side of the Bell Centre as well. Down Mountain Street near St Antoine, a new series of office and condo towers totalling 4 million sq ft will be built in the next fifteen years by the same developer. The proximity to the arena was of course only one of the factors along with highway access ramps nearby, suburban rail and metro stops merging in the area.

In the Toronto example that don401 gives, you also need to take a look at what T.O. did with the old Maple Leaf Garden. Ryerson U scooped it up to expand their campus, and a massive Loblaws supermarket was implanted on the ground floor. In my opinion, this was a better use than what was done with the old forum in Montreal in terms of attracting and retaining businesses in the area.

[Bham1982]

Your assertion that sports venues inhibit development is too pretty twisted. How about this tower built as a residential condo development tied to the Bell Centre and exhibiting the team's logotype?

No, my assertion isn't "pretty twisted"; it's common knowledge.

I have no idea what Bell Centre is or why you think it's a counterargument. No one said that an arena is like Cherenobyl. Stuff can still be built nearby.

The point is that arenas don't cause development. It doesn't mean that arenas lead to wastelands. Just like a power plant or warehouse or freeway can be surrounded by development, so can an arena; doesn't mean the warehouse caused the development.

The Gardiner didn't "cause" condos to be built next-door, nor did the Rogers Center, nor did the CN Tower. Chinese nationals aren't parking their money in Canadian condos because of the Blue Jays. If you imploded the Rogers Center, you would just get more condo safe deposit boxes for non-Canadians.

[canuck]

The Gardiner didn't "cause" condos to be built next-door, nor did the Rogers Center, nor did the CN Tower. Chinese nationals aren't parking their money in Canadian condos because of the Blue Jays. If you imploded the Rogers Center, you would just get more condo safe deposit boxes for non-Canadians.

Toronto's condo ownership may be fueled by a lot of absentee ownership but you know that Greater Toronto is also home to a half million Chinese, and that it is impossible to avoid the presence of a very lively pan-Asian community disseminated throughout the region. Asian investment isnt just a fly-by-night in Toronto, or Vancouver but obviously, the pressure on homeowners is pretty high in some quarters because of the heated market. Developers rely on a large block of offshore investors to start massive projects. I suppose these developers have important call centers to attract potential buyers far and wide.

There's a shady Chinese-Cambodian developer in Montreal [[Kheng Ly) promoting a large two tower project [[Yul Condos) two blocks west of Bell Centre developments. He also has offices opened in Chinese cities and Ho Chi Minh City to sell these Condos in Montreal.

[canuck]

No, my assertion isn't "pretty twisted"; it's common knowledge.

I have no idea what Bell Centre is or why you think it's a counterargument. No one said that an arena is like Cherenobyl. Stuff can still be built nearby.

The point is that arenas don't cause development. It doesn't mean that arenas lead to wastelands. Just like a power plant or warehouse or freeway can be surrounded by development, so can an arena; doesn't mean the warehouse caused the development.

The Gardiner didn't "cause" condos to be built next-door, nor did the Rogers Center, nor did the CN Tower. Chinese nationals aren't parking their money in Canadian condos because of the Blue Jays. If you imploded the Rogers Center, you would just get more condo safe deposit boxes for non-Canadians

.


Bell Centre is where the Habs pounded the Wings last friday.

I also dont think arenas are an automatic gateway to development, residential or otherwise. It takes a little bit more than that. There has to be a constant appraisal of the environment, historical considerations, potential for moving throngs of people safely and rapidly. If you add density to the core, even if it is sporadic, there is a chance that you can define opportunities for residential and office development nearby. Stadia and other developments are not therefore mutually exclusive, wtf?

[Hermod]

Every developer whether he is just seeking zoning, wants tax abatement, or wants actual cash subsidies and grants always tells the PTB that his development will cause gold coins to rain out of the sky on the surrounding area.

[emu steve]

IF one, seriously, wants to see what a stadium can do for an area, here are the demolitions for April and May, 2006.

One may also note that yes, it was an urban wasteland and even had asphalt company and assorted other stuff. Another photo [[different page) shows concrete silos [[?) which have been demolished.

http://www.jdland.com/dc/demolished-...006&ballpark=y

Anyone who thinks this was prime development land is a fool or a liar.

It was an eyesore! And far enough away from even DOT and the subway that it would never have developed.

[Hermod]

In the days when Jack Kent Cooke ran the Redskins, they played at RFK Stadium. Cooke wanted a new stadium there and was prepared to pay for it all with his own money. At the time, the Redskins had a winning team and were far more popular than basketball or baseball. All Cooke wanted was for the US Department of interior and the City of Washington to let him build. The bureaucrats in DOI wanted to slow walk the project to show thir power and the city of Washington wanted all kinds of set aside contracts for friends and family and obstructed everything. Cooke went out into Anne Arundel County, Maryland and bought some land and built his stadium. The mayor of Washington went on TV as to how Cooke had "disrespected" Washington DC.

[Pickford-Bentler]

In the days when Jack Kent Cooke ran the Redskins, they played at RFK Stadium. Cooke wanted a new stadium there and was prepared to pay for it all with his own money. At the time, the Redskins had a winning team and were far more popular than basketball or baseball. All Cooke wanted was for the US Department of interior and the City of Washington to let him build. The bureaucrats in DOI wanted to slow walk the project to show thir power and the city of Washington wanted all kinds of set aside contracts for friends and family and obstructed everything. Cooke went out into Anne Arundel County, Maryland and bought some land and built his stadium. The mayor of Washington went on TV as to how Cooke had "disrespected" Washington DC.

The horse racetrack site in Anne Arundel that Cooke wanted to build the stadium fell through because people who lived in that region did not want a stadium and the sea of asphalt required for parking. He also proposed to utilize the Potomac Yard site. The people living there, correctly in hindsight, felt there were other options more amenable to property values. He ended up building his stadium in Landover which is in PG County. Going to a game there is akin to getting a root canal. I refuse free tickets. Back in the RFK days, it was fun to ride the Metro, get off and walk to that old dump that had character. It is like the football team and hockey team reversed roles. I take any free offer of tickets for a Caps game. The entrance is right by the Metro escalator. When they were stuck at the Cap Center in PG, going to game was like crossing the 14th Street bridge at 5PM on a work day.

[emu steve]

The horse racetrack site in Anne Arundel that Cooke wanted to build the stadium fell through because people who lived in that region did not want a stadium and the sea of asphalt required for parking. He also proposed to utilize the Potomac Yard site. The people living there, correctly in hindsight, felt there were other options more amenable to property values. He ended up building his stadium in Landover which is in PG County. Going to a game there is akin to getting a root canal. I refuse free tickets. Back in the RFK days, it was fun to ride the Metro, get off and walk to that old dump that had character. It is like the football team and hockey team reversed roles. I take any free offer of tickets for a Caps game. The entrance is right by the Metro escalator. When they were stuck at the Cap Center in PG, going to game was like crossing the 14th Street bridge at 5PM on a work day.

Agree with what you posted.

FedEx was a process which went very badly. FedEx was Cooke's last choice after all others failed.

Yes, Potomac Yards is doing very well with a nice shopping center and a lot of new housing. A football stadium would have not been the best usage of that land.

Capital Centre was another bad project.

Folks here [[D.C.) knew Verizon would be a success. And knew Nationals Park would be a success.

Building within the central city is a good thing.

[SDCC]

Petco Park is having its ten year anniversary – actually the date has passed, it was March 11, 2004. I came across this report, which has been in the media. The data was generated by the National University System – Institute For Policy Research Division.
Petco Park: in the last 10 years.
Petco Park is credited with adding residents downtown, the area right around Petco Park seems to have benefited the most. The condominiums, apartments and shops appreciate the anchor and foundation that ties, or supports, the neighborhood Petco Park calls home – East Village. The area immediately surrounding Petco is exclusive, several units overlook the Park itself, the perfect seats. East Village was and is, a genuine neighborhood filled with young, urban, working professionals. The neighborhood is fairly expensive, there are however empty lots, east and south of the ballpark - that need to be tended to and fenced off, these areas are havens for the homeless. East Village has some of the nicest apartments and condos downtown, however East Village is the face of homelessness in San Diego. It is a challenging neighborhood to build, sell or develop.
Petco didn’t add any jobs to San Diego’s downtown
Petco did increase downtown residents
Petco Park did generate money, millions of dollars in San Diego’s pockets
Petco is perfect for downtown San Diego, and the perfect fit for East Village.
http://padrespublic.com/ghost-of-ray...of-petco-park/

The local San Diego Fox affiliate discussing same report...

http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/25/n...#axzz2yQcoClpo

I found this article exposing recurring charges the city agreed to pay, this was only news to the public. The amount that San Diegan's are on the hook for is 30% of the Padres operating costs...this amounts to 3 million dollars the city is picking up [[call it a gratuity) leaving around 7 million for the Padres to pay.
This is a token amount of money, worth every penny - representative of the positive impact Petco Park has had on development and property valves in East Village.

http://www.10news.com/news/who-pays-...or-petco-park-

Now there is talk of building a new football stadium, right next to Petco Park.

[emu steve]

Petco Park is having its ten year anniversary – actually the date has passed, it was March 11, 2004. I came across this report, which has been in the media. The data was generated by the National University System – Institute For Policy Research Division.
Petco Park: in the last 10 years.
Petco Park is credited with adding residents downtown, the area right around Petco Park seems to have benefited the most. The condominiums, apartments and shops appreciate the anchor and foundation that ties, or supports, the neighborhood Petco Park calls home – East Village. The area immediately surrounding Petco is exclusive, several units overlook the Park itself, the perfect seats. East Village was and is, a genuine neighborhood filled with young, urban, working professionals. The neighborhood is fairly expensive, there are however empty lots, east and south of the ballpark - that need to be tended to and fenced off, these areas are havens for the homeless. East Village has some of the nicest apartments and condos downtown, however East Village is the face of homelessness in San Diego. It is a challenging neighborhood to build, sell or develop.
Petco didn’t add any jobs to San Diego’s downtown
Petco did increase downtown residents
Petco Park did generate money, millions of dollars in San Diego’s pockets
Petco is perfect for downtown San Diego, and the perfect fit for East Village.

Now there is talk of building a new football stadium, right next to Petco Park.

http://padrespublic.com/ghost-of-ray...of-petco-park/

Sounds somewhat like Nationals Park which opened six month before the crash.

I don't know what the 'official' count is, but thousands now live in the area called 'near southeast' before that area was light industrial or urban wasteland.

They literally have built thousands of housing units, mostly apartments in rental or condominium ownership.

[Pickford-Bentler]

Sounds somewhat like Nationals Park which opened six month before the crash.

I don't know what the 'official' count is, but thousands now live in the area called 'near southeast' before that area was light industrial or urban wasteland.

They literally have built thousands of housing units, mostly apartments in rental or condominium ownership.

That was not a good area. Drug dealers were operating out of Potomac Gardens and that wasteland was an area where customers from Northern Va. would score whatever they were looking for. A lot of them used the Metro to avoid a seizure of their car, if busted by the cops.

My brother worked there when NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard. Initially, there were problems with street people hassling workers walking to the Metro. As time moved on, he said things got a lot better as more development took hold.

[emu steve]

That was not a good area. Drug dealers were operating out of Potomac Gardens and that wasteland was an area where customers from Northern Va. would score whatever they were looking for. A lot of them used the Metro to avoid a seizure of their car, if busted by the cops.

My brother worked there when NAVSEA moved to the Navy Yard. Initially, there were problems with street people hassling workers walking to the Metro. As time moved on, he said things got a lot better as more development took hold.

Good points.

That area had a subway stop, Navy Yard, DOT, etc. and nothing could turn that area around.

One might think that those 'assets' would be enough to trigger development but it didn't happen.

That area was full of strip clubs [['grandfathered in'), chop shops, drugs, etc. and they were happy operating 'out of sight/out of mind'.

Too many people had a vested interest in the area NOT being developed.

And it might be noted that when D.C. started eminent domain for the stadium footprint they had to win court fights.

Folks in that area fought the stadium tooth and nail.

[ghettopalmetto]

Sounds somewhat like Nationals Park which opened six month before the crash.

I don't know what the 'official' count is, but thousands now live in the area called 'near southeast' before that area was light industrial or urban wasteland.

They literally have built thousands of housing units, mostly apartments in rental or condominium ownership.

Many of those housing developments near Nationals Park were in the design phase as far back as 2002 and 2003--while the Montreal Expos were still a thing. I even remember the redevelopment of Waterside Mall being talked about in 2001, which had a hiccup thanks to [[would-be prime tenant) Fannie Mae's mismanagement of money.

A lot of the restaurants near that park are frequented by workers from the Navy Yard, which is just a handful of blocks down M Street.

The truth is, land prices started skyrocketing in DC, and the near Southeast neighborhood was 1) still affordable 2) had subway access and 3) was close to employment centers. It was going to develop one way or another. In fact, the National Capital Development Commission PLANNED to redevelop that neighborhood. It just so happened to have enough strip clubs to condemn where the District could assemble large contiguous parcels of land for a shiny new mall/parkingplex, er, ballpark.

The site is all of two blocks from the Metro, and one mile from the Capitol--not quite the same as "in the middle of nowhere". Development was going to happen there. The District just tilted the table in favor of Mr. Lerner with a $636 million gift. Merry Christmas.

Sure, a publicly-funded sports monstrosity might be good for a few new restaurants and bars within a couple block radius. But plenty of neighborhoods already have restaurants and bars [[and usually much better ones than T.J. McShittergans Sports Pub). So it makes one wonder what the taxpayers receive for their hundreds of millions of dollars?

Are we so blind to note that Corktown has seen more businesses open since Tiger Stadium CLOSED? Still waiting for all of that "spinoff" from the "synergy" of Comerica Playland, Ford Field, and the casinos. Maybe if we just build one more wooden rabbit in Detroit....

[emu steve]

Many of those housing developments near Nationals Park were in the design phase as far back as 2002 and 2003--while the Montreal Expos were still a thing. I even remember the redevelopment of Waterside Mall being talked about in 2001, which had a hiccup thanks to [[would-be prime tenant) Fannie Mae's mismanagement of money.

A lot of the restaurants near that park are frequented by workers from the Navy Yard, which is just a handful of blocks down M Street.

The truth is, land prices started skyrocketing in DC, and the near Southeast neighborhood was 1) still affordable 2) had subway access and 3) was close to employment centers. It was going to develop one way or another. In fact, the National Capital Development Commission PLANNED to redevelop that neighborhood. It just so happened to have enough strip clubs to condemn where the District could assemble large contiguous parcels of land for a shiny new mall/parkingplex, er, ballpark.

The site is all of two blocks from the Metro, and one mile from the Capitol--not quite the same as "in the middle of nowhere". Development was going to happen there. The District just tilted the table in favor of Mr. Lerner with a $636 million gift. Merry Christmas.

Sure, a publicly-funded sports monstrosity might be good for a few new restaurants and bars within a couple block radius. But plenty of neighborhoods already have restaurants and bars [[and usually much better ones than T.J. McShittergans Sports Pub). So it makes one wonder what the taxpayers receive for their hundreds of millions of dollars?

Are we so blind to note that Corktown has seen more businesses open since Tiger Stadium CLOSED? Still waiting for all of that "spinoff" from the "synergy" of Comerica Playland, Ford Field, and the casinos. Maybe if we just build one more wooden rabbit in Detroit....

I [[and apparently others) completely disagree with you.

Yes, it is about a mile or so from the Capitol, BUT

In 1979, without the Internet, and thinking like you, while in D.C. for a job interview, I decided to check out the area and started heading south from the Capitol.

I was shocked at some of the houses which looked 3rd world [[I think they were probably at the corner of S. Capitol and say M Street, SW. - 'across the street' from what is now Nationals Park).

I got out of there PDQ.