Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[Mackinaw]

I have two caveats to go with my general support of building Gilbert's multiuser development on FailJail.

[[1) Will the former police HQ be preserved? It really should.
[[2) Where will our criminal courts and short term / central booking jail be? Don't tell me this should go into an outlying part of the City. That is unacceptable as a matter of due process. They must be downtown. So if FMHOJ is going to be torn down, fine, but it's going to need to be replaced and it's going to need to be downtown. I hope Gilbert is willing to pay for a nice new courthouse, too. I mean this seriously-- build a cutting edge court facility opposite Gratiot across from the 36th District Court.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Mackinaw
I have 2 responses:
1) I hope it is, too. But it is neither county owned nor on the site of the proposed stadium [[as far as we know). I think it could be a great boutique hotel or luxury apartments, if they put the money into it. I love that weird, beautiful building. I remember as a kid looking at it and saying "that building needs to be cleaned" there was so much grime on it! I also remember going there with my Mom who occasionally had court business to do [[pick up or drop off case info) and she would tell me that if I wasn't good she'd turn me in!
2) I don't know where the short term/central booking jail would be. But why does it matter? I'm not trying to dispute the point, but I honestly don't understand why it would make a difference if it was downtown or at Mound Rd or elsewhere. The police or sheriffs pick up the uh, transportation costs, and it is not as if trials would be there [[creating a hardship for family or friends visiting court). Please explain how it affects due process. I believe you may have a valid point, but I don't see it yet.

[archfan]

Anyone who would lament the loss of The Frank Murphey Hall of Justice needs to have their head examined.

I'm sure people said the same thing about Victorian and Craftsman houses, the Book Tower, the GAR building. Brutalist architecture has few fans now, but later generations might appreciate some examples of it.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I'm sure people said the same thing about Victorian and Craftsman houses, the Book Tower, the GAR building. Brutalist architecture has few fans now, but later generations might appreciate some examples of it.

Brutalist is aptly named. I won't miss the East German warmth and humanity that just oozes from FMHoJ.

[bust]

Article lamenting the demolition of some brutalist architecture last year:

http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/1...n-2015/421890/

Thr FMHoJ comes nowhere close to my list of favorite architecture, but other examples of brutalism definitely do, including some from Oscar Niemeyer and Paulo Mendes da Rocha [[even if some of their others definitely don't).

[emu steve]

Article lamenting the demolition of some brutalist architecture last year:

http://www.citylab.com/design/2015/1...n-2015/421890/

Thr FMHoJ comes nowhere close to my list of favorite architecture, but other examples of brutalism definitely do, including some from Oscar Niemeyer and Paulo Mendes da Rocha [[even if some of their others definitely don't).

Brutal. Hard on the eyes.

[Mackinaw]

Due process as in access to the courts for witnesses, family, and your attorney. Lets not assume that your attorney has a car. Your public defender is probably broke, takes a bus, and needs to be on their feet all day between their office, the courtrooms, and the jail. Likewise, the prosecutor's office. Are we going to move that out into an outlying area? They need to be accessible too, and close to the police. They also need to interview witnesses who take transit. Those witnesses can get to you downtown alright, but how they gonna get to some outlying place? Also, Is police HQ and the feds also going to move out to Mound? As you can see, this gets insane. Courts need to be downtown. End of story.

I am fine and in fact encourage building the big new jail in an outlying area. Bus those guys in. NY does it everyday via the Rikers bus. And yeah, it's challenging for defense attorneys to get out to Rikers to visit. But at least you know where to find your client on their court date-- downtown, centrally located, near all the transit and all the other important ancillary offices. The same applies here. Again, simply stated, do not move any courts out of downtown.

love,
Mackinaw, Esq.

[Zads07]

I have two caveats to go with my general support of building Gilbert's multiuser development on FailJail.

[[1) Will the former police HQ be preserved? It really should.

Crain's reporting on the former DPD HQ, where it's not concrete it will be demolished and could be preserved, according to Cullen.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...soccer-stadium

[emu steve]

Crain's reporting on the former DPD HQ, where it's not concrete it will be demolished and could be preserved, according to Cullen.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...soccer-stadium

AND, the author basically indicates that the Brewster site is a non-starter if Detroit wants a 30M grant to redevelop housing at that site... [[quoting):

"You can almost certainly kiss goodbye the likelihood that the city gets the grant – applications are due in June – if a stadium is what is slated for the site instead of 500-plus housing units for all income levels to replace the demolished housing projects."

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Crain's reporting on the former DPD HQ, where it's not concrete it will be demolished and could be preserved, according to Cullen.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...soccer-stadium

I get the distinct impression that Crain's articles usually are well researched. Detnews and Freep articles often contain no more information than posts here at DY.

[Hypestyles]

I hope all of this can be settled this year, "whatever" the final solution is. Hopefully it can be done in formal meetings instead of being more or less hashed out in press conferences and the like.

[bust]

Brutal. Hard on the eyes.

Niemeyer's Edificio Copan, for example, is not hard on mine.



It's spectacular [[even if it shows its age). It's possible to climb out onto those brise-soleil. And Niemeyer did not just incorporate first floor retail into the design; it's restaurants, businesses, cafes, and other services for the community for the first four.



Perhaps Brazilians did brutalism better, with a more generous spirit, softened by curves.

Back on track, I'm hopeful Detroit is getting a MLS team. Especially if the design and construction of its stadium are in the hands of a co-developer with a proven track record of successful projects in the city that incorporate residential, commercial, and retail uses. Looking forward to it. Though while I don't think it should necessarily be a requirement, I'd still like to see them try to creatively let remain or repurpose the FMHoJ and old DPD buildings. The glass towers that replace them in the rendering are less than interesting.

I like density for its walkability. And squeezing architecture into confined spaces can lead to good outcomes, as happened with the Copan.

[Danny]

I have an ideal for a MLS pro soccer team in Detroit. Let's called it Detroit Wheels.

[bust]

I get the distinct impression that Crain's articles usually are well researched. Detnews and Freep articles often contain no more information than posts here at DY.

Totally agree. And it didn't used to be this way. The News used to offer a prize if someone found a typo. Not today, even with the many fewer pages and simpler vocabulary it now prints.

[archfan]

Brutalist is aptly named. I won't miss the East German warmth and humanity that just oozes from FMHoJ.

There are things to learn from every type of architecture - even some of the Soviet-era buildings are well thought of now. You just hope the good examples escape the wrecking ball when they're out of favor. In general - FMHoJ may or may not be a good example.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Archfan, I am sure you are correct. I personally think the best Brutalist structures I've seen are ugly; the worst are worse than that. They seem so impersonal and sterile and monolithic. I would not be disappointed to never see one again.

[emu steve]

Archfan, I am sure you are correct. I personally think the best Brutalist structures I've seen are ugly; the worst are worse than that. They seem so impersonal and sterile and monolithic. I would not be disappointed to never see one again.

I have a question:

If we have retired leisure suits, plaids, seersucker, etc. without any guilt, why do we feel guilty about getting rid of bad architecture?

Okay, I get it. Go to an art museum and look at the Andy Warhol stuff... Maybe watch his film "Trash".

[bust]

I have a question:

If we have retired leisure suits, plaids, seersucker, etc. without any guilt, why do we feel guilty about getting rid of bad architecture?

Okay, I get it. Go to an art museum and look at the Andy Warhol stuff... Maybe watch his film "Trash".

This is your idea of great architecture, right?



With architecture, like fashion, it comes down to a matter of opinion, and we're each entitled to our own.

[bust]

Archfan, I am sure you are correct. I personally think the best Brutalist structures I've seen are ugly; the worst are worse than that. They seem so impersonal and sterile and monolithic. I would not be disappointed to never see one again.

Ok, one more try.... What do you think of this example of brutalist architecture, from closer to home?





Brutalism isn't my favorite style of architecture. I don't think I have one. I like and dislike architecture of every style, based on the individual merits of the buildings. There are some great brutalist buildings, and some hideous ones. It seems too simplistic to love, or write off, an entire style.

By the way, Brutalism was first coined to describe the work of Le Corbusier. It refers to his preferred material, raw concrete [[béton brut). I don't love all of it, but I'm glad some of his work is still around.

[bust]

I'll bring the discussion back on topic.

Thinking a little more about this, I'm excited about MLS coming to Detroit, but this office chair critic is unconvinced the fail jail site is the best location for the stadium. And I'm not convinced it isn't. There are pros and cons, and questions either way.

On the pro side, courts and correctional facilities don't make for a glamorous gateway to the city driving down Gratiot. A sports complex would be much better for the Greektown hotel and casino than the current government and correctional facilities, to connect them to the larger entertainment district that has grown to the north. It can utilize the existing expressway and transit infrastructure. The residential, retail, and commercial aspects of the proposal would be great for the city if they materialize. They'd contribute to downtown's revitalization, and add to the tax rolls. And something needs to be done to stop the bleeding at the fail jail no matter what.

On the con side, the biggest concern seems to be moving so many vital government functions somewhere else. Like swingline said, the stadium renderings show the entire criminal justice complex replaced -- not just the fail jail, but the existing jails, the courts, the police labs too. Criminal justice isn't what most want to think about when we imagine the future of the city, but it's essential to society. Like Mackinaw and others have said, there are clear efficiencies that come from having its various aspects close together, and centrally located where they're most accessible to the people involved. The government buildings, at least, ought to remain downtown. In any case, like MSUguy said, the county should not be saddled with extra expenses if they move. Like Junjie said, jails don't [[necessarily) kill downtowns. Manhattan has clustered its jails, courts, police headquarters, and government buildings centrally downtown and it seems to work. Like Bham said, that criminal justice infrastructure brings a lot of activity to the vicinity, on a continuous basis [[including young Mikey and his mom .) Sports complexes bring occasional crowds that punctuate long periods of inactivity, which discourages stable business and residential neighborhoods to grow. Like history says, at least since the automobile age, they aren't usually great neighbors -- especially when a lack of public transportation necessitates they're surrounded by seas of parking lots and streams of heavy car traffic on game days. And it happens all too often that the supplementary amenities the developers promise at the outset [[retail, residential, commercial, public assets...) never arrive.

It's easy to get excited by the idea of the stadium and the $1B of development they claim will come with it. And Gilbert has a great track record with his developments so far in the city. But his and Gores' plan doesn't deserve a free pass. It's important to keep the best interests of the city and county up front. As always, the devil is in the details, and it's important to examine them. And in order to evaluate the merits of any plan it's important to consider the alternatives. It's nonsense downtown has run out of room to grow besides up. More nonsense there is a plan A or nothing at all. It's a quibble of semantics, but "plan A" denotes it's not the only one.

It'd be great to see MLS come to Detroit, especially if the stadium is built in the city. But the fail jail site is not its only possible location. If that's were it goes it should happen in a way that does not negatively impact the criminal justice system. It should not incur the county any extra expenses. And I hope it's carefully planned to materially benefit not just the team owners, but the area and its citizens overall.

Detroit is not a dense city. There must be a way the government buildings, the jails, and the stadium can coexist downtown. If not, the government buildings should be the last to go. It's debatable stadia belong downtown in the first place -- especially so many of them. Whatever the case, with so much vacant and underutilized land in the city, there are a wealth of options to build an MLS stadium. And for each location a variety of ways to design it. Dan Gilbert's admirable track record nothwithstanding, it's important to consider the situation carefully before giving the developers exactly what they want.

I'm sure MLS in Detroit can happen and really hope it does. I'm interested in specifically how.

What do you think?

[Hypestyles]

where are the options for a southwest Detroit location for the soccer stadium and associated businesses?

How about the Mound Site itself for creating a soccer stadium and east side entertainment district?

[ABetterDetroit]

where are the options for a southwest Detroit location for the soccer stadium and associated businesses?

How about the Mound Site itself for creating a soccer stadium and east side entertainment district?

Yes, the Detroit Detention Center on Mound has the required area for this stadium plus room for parking all on one single parcel. Equally so would be the State Fair Grounds site assuming that the current option for development rights doesn't last in perpetuity. The former would no doubt make Ferndale, Royal Oak and Birmingham ecstatic but you would be forfeiting the extra development that would benefit from the proximity to the other venues.

[Atticus]

Mixed feelings. As stated previously, I love the fail jail site for the MLS stadium for numerous reasons.

That being said, whether it is the county or Gilbert himself, someone is paying to relocate the new jail. To me the bigger issue, as others mentioned, is that someone could be spending even more money to relocate the FMHoJ, and other associated facilities. Regardless of who pays, that is money spent replacing facilities that could be better spent elsewhere.

Basically, I am good with the stadium instead of the fail jail... but would rather the FMHoJ and other complexes get left out of this deal. I also don't really want to see St. Antione closed to traffic, and another mega block created. In a perfect world, the stadium would be built first, and over time the justice facilities get relocated as their service life wears out.

IMO, probably the best location to move the justice facilities is on the other side of downtown, by the new police headquarters and a closer walk to the Rosa Parks bus center. Somewhere near Michigan Avenue west of 1st street would be ideal, with the jail complex out on Mound Road away from downtown.

My "best solution" would be to just build the new stadium on the fail jail site east side of St. Antione by 2020, rebuild the jail at Mound Road, and over time gradually move the justice complex to the west side of downtown by the new police complex. The relocation of the facilities west of St. Antione can happen later, although I know Gilbert and crew probably all want it to be one big project.

[DeLemur]

Bust,
I think you make good points. There are plenty of spots for this stadium. I for one think the St. Aubin and Gratiot corner just up the road would be swell. It would help push along development up Gratiot a bit and tie into the watering holes and restaurants of Eastern Market. It would also avoid congestion downtown with simultaneous Comerica or Ford field games.

Gilbert sees blood in the water with the fail jail site and is trying to ram something through that as of now will cost more to the County than finishing what has been started. On dollar terms only its a NO. So all else is moot. Plus taxpayers will likely have to subsidize his project. Real strange how the MLS guy was emphasizing THIS site. Its just not a good deal and the big boys are trying to be crafty.

[emu steve]

Bust, <br>
I think you make good points. There are plenty of spots for this stadium. I for one think the St. Aubin and Gratiot corner just up the road would be swell. It would help push along development up Gratiot a bit and tie into the watering holes and restaurants of Eastern Market. It would also avoid congestion downtown with simultaneous Comerica or Ford field games. <br>
<br>
Gilbert sees blood in the water with the fail jail site and is trying to ram something through that as of now will cost more to the County than finishing what has been started. On dollar terms only its a NO. So all else is moot. Plus taxpayers will likely have to subsidize his project. Real strange how the MLS guy was emphasizing THIS site. Its just not a good deal and the big boys are trying to be crafty.

I agree with your post with certain reservations or caveats

DG offered 50M for the site in 2013, fire sale price.

He [[and now the MLS commish) is trying to be a good businessman and get an excellent asset at budget prices.

I take the 50M offer and now the new 'offer' kind of starting points in negotiations where the county will need to do their 'due diligence' to come up with a 'fair price' based on the unique circumstances of this site and balance it with what it can do for Detroit AND the tax rolls.

I do believe that the county [[I guess) would have to 'give' the stadium site to DG while DG pays for the balance of the site. Too bad that land can't be traded. For example, DG buys land for the county and they essentially conduct a land swap. DG gets a small amount of very valuable land whereas the county gets a large amount of land elsewhere.

As we have learned from the arena, etc. a soccer stadium won't be built completely with private funds... [[ain't happening).