Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[bust]

Disagree 100 or 1,000%.

Center of town is great for the team owner. Great for the town, it sure isn't.

I'll take Philly's Center City over Detroit's Downtown and Midtown each and every day.

[emu steve]

Stadia / arenas belong where Philly put them: at the distant periphery. Not close to the center of town.

The real estate near MCS is too prime in my opinion. That area has the potential to develop into so much more.

Maybe one, no more than two, like in Baltimore. Detroit already has three. Plus four casinos, which are almost as bad.

More than a half century later, haven't we learned?

Actually stadia went from the downtown to the 'burbs [[off the beaten path) and are now [[have been for some time) headed back downtown.

[bust]

Actually stadia went from the downtown to the 'burbs [[off the beaten path) and are now [[have been for some time) headed back downtown.

South Philly is not Pontiac nor is it Auburn Hills.

And Philly's are connected by good transit.

The state fairgrounds might be more analogous, if ever good transit served that location.

[emu steve]

South Philly is not Pontiac nor is it Auburn Hills.

And Philly's are connected by good transit.

The state fairgrounds might be more analogous, if ever good transit served that location.

As soon as i read 'good transit' my head said, "Not relevant comment to Detroit."

Michigan Ave. is a great location for a sports stadium. As a young man I took the bus down Michigan Ave. to Tiger Stadium. Later I drove down Michigan Ave. to Cobo to watch the Pistons.

The area west of the old Tiger Stadium is very accessible from the entire metro area.

Of all the cities I have been in with multiple sports stadiums, Detroit is the most accessible by automobile.

Just think of the number of ways folks can get to Comerica from every direction via freeways, highways, etc.

[bust]

As soon as i read 'good transit' my head said, "Not relevant comment to Detroit."

Michigan Ave. is a great location for a sports stadium. As a young man I took the bus down Michigan Ave. to Tiger Stadium. Later I drove down Michigan Ave. to Cobo to watch the Pistons.

The area west of the old Tiger Stadium is very accessible from the entire metro area.

Of all the cities I have been in with multiple sports stadiums, Detroit is the most accessible by automobile.

Just think of the number of ways folks can get to Comerica from every direction via freeways, highways, etc.

Well, I'll grant that's a better location [[for the city) than where Comerica Park, Ford Field, or LCA exist today. And much better than the fail jail site too.

But just because I don't want another stadium downtown doesn't mean I advocate one in the distant suburbs either.

PS. Yeah, I know this is Detroit, but the automobile is a huge part of the problem. Just look at the size of this giant parking garage under construction at the Statler site. Only a few posts later someone pointed out it will be barely big enough for the infamously stubby residential building they're building on top. If that.

Cars eat up tons of space, at the great sacrifice of vibrant walkable urbanity. [[To its credit, the City Club garage, at the Statler site, will be underground, and that helps a lot.) Arenas, especially when they are underserved by transit, are the worst of all offenders.

Yeah, we know: Detroit.

[emu steve]

Well, I'll grant that's a better location [[for the city) than where Comerica Park, Ford Field, or LCA exist today. And much better than the fail jail site too.

But just because I don't want another stadium downtown doesn't mean I advocate one in the distant suburbs either.

PS. Yeah, I know this is Detroit, but the automobile is a huge part of the problem. Just look at the size of this giant parking garage under construction at the Statler site. Only a few posts later someone pointed out it will be barely big enough for the infamously stubby residential building they're building on top. If that.

Cars eat up tons of space, at the great sacrifice of vibrant walkable urbanity. [[To its credit, the City Club garage, at the Statler site, will be underground, and that helps a lot.) Arenas, especially when they are underserved by transit, are the worst of all offenders.

Yeah, we know: Detroit.

Actually I AGREE about not the fail jail site. Putting a stadium in the middle of office, residential towers makes no sense.

For Detroit's sake, I would HOPE that possibilities of MCS re-development, Ford Motor's efforts nearby and, my suggestion, a soccer stadium, would cause a land rush along Michigan Ave. in Corktown.

That is what Detroit needs something to attract developers in numbers to buy up and later develop under-utilized land.

Either rightly or wrong, you can't pay developers to go into areas which are fore-lorn, but show them an area which could get 'hot' and they flock to it. Bandwagon effect.

[Zads07]

EMU Steve, Detroit does not need another stadium that's filled only a quarter of the year with a soccer team. If MLS does not want to use Ford Field as a stadium, then that's MLS' problem, not the owners.

While I agree there are probably some good sites near the downtown core, the fact is, it's not a necessity, to the city. Do what's right for the city, not for MLS.

[emu steve]

EMU Steve, Detroit does not need another stadium that's filled only a quarter of the year with a soccer team. If MLS does not want to use Ford Field as a stadium, then that's MLS' problem, not the owners.

While I agree there are probably some good sites near the downtown core, the fact is, it's not a necessity, to the city. Do what's right for the city, not for MLS.

You seem to have a 'cavalier' attitude toward getting a MLS franchise. Get one, fine; not get one, no problem - not going to lose any sleep over it.

Well, this seems like a negotiation between a house seller and house buyer.

If the buyer wants the house, he or she needs to come to an agreement with the seller.

If we believe the perspective owners are DEAD serious about bringing MLS soccer to Detroit then they better be willing to negotiate an agreement.

I just don't believe Detroit wants to pass on the opportunity.

They can pass now and try to get in later but the additional cost [[for the franchise at a later date) would pay for the stadium, at today's prices.

NO way do these perspective owners get a franchise cheaper 5 or 10 years from now than today... Once expansion is done, then the franchises become scarce commodities.

[masterblaster]

I always liked this site for a MLS Stadium. Throw the New Center a bone.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3638...7i13312!8i6656

You only have to deal with one landowner - Henry Ford Health System -but you would have to knock down that HFHS office building

[Bham1982]

Center of town is great for the team owner. Great for the town, it sure isn't.

I'll take Philly's Center City over Detroit's Downtown and Midtown each and every day.

Yup. Go to Comerica/Ford Field/Pizza Pizza park area on a typical day and observe the "urban environment". Then go to Center City Philly.

[masterblaster]

Yup. Go to Comerica/Ford Field/Pizza Pizza park area on a typical day and observe the "urban environment". Then go to Center City Philly.

The people of Metro Detroit had abandoned the city and its downtown. Comerica Park and Ford Field brought people back downtown, along with the casinos and Campus Martius.

Center City Philly never was abandoned like Detroit's. Center City did not even have a skyline until the 1970's, now its skyline is bigger than Detroit's which had a 50-year headstart. Center City also had an IVY LEAGUE school as an anchor.

The stadiums brought people back downtown. That is the reality of the situation.

[emu steve]

The people of Metro Detroit had abandoned the city and its downtown. Comerica Park and Ford Field brought people back downtown, along with the casinos and Campus Martius.

Center City Philly never was abandoned like Detroit's. Center City did not even have a skyline until the 1970's, now its skyline is bigger than Detroit's which had a 50-year headstart. Center City also had an IVY LEAGUE school as an anchor.

The stadiums brought people back downtown. That is the reality of the situation.

Yep. Any given year there could be say 4 - 5M visitors to Comerica, Ford Field, and LCA.

Ford Field may draw close to 1M for 10 NFL FB games + other events.

Comerica could draw say 2 - 3M depending on the Tigers.

LCA will host say 150 events say another 1.5M+.

[Bham1982]

The people of Metro Detroit had abandoned the city and its downtown. Comerica Park and Ford Field brought people back downtown, along with the casinos and Campus Martius.

No. The stadia brought cars back downtown, not people. They are inherently anti-urban uses. The stadia are empty wastelands 95% of the time, except for massive traffic jams right before and after events, and some folks scurrying to their parking lots.

You cannot have a healthy urban neighborhood and a car-dependent stadium. It's completely impossible, which is why that corner of downtown is permanently screwed.

Center City Philly never was abandoned like Detroit's. Center City did not even have a skyline until the 1970's, now its skyline is bigger than Detroit's which had a 50-year headstart. Center City also had an IVY LEAGUE school as an anchor.

This is all nonsense. First, downtown Detroit was never abandoned. It was more thriving in the 70's and 80's than today [[though obviously on a downward curve). Second, Philly was in terrible shape in previous decades, not that different from Detroit.

Penn isn't right downtown and has nothing to do with Center City vibrancy. The Philly skyline has nothing to do with vibrancy either.

Philly has a thriving core [[probably second best in the U.S.) because it has an intact, pedestrian-scaled urban fabric. Detroit is still busy destroying its fabric for fundamentally anti-urban, auto-dependent uses. You have plenty of people who think it's a good idea to rip out the eastern half of downtown for a soccer field, of all things.

[Bham1982]

Yep. Any given year there could be say 4 - 5M visitors to Comerica, Ford Field, and LCA.

Ford Field may draw close to 1M for 10 NFL FB games + other events.

Comerica could draw say 2 - 3M depending on the Tigers.

LCA will host say 150 events say another 1.5M+.

And the freeways downtown carry something like 70 million cars annually. Even more urban vibrancy!

Maybe we can replace Woodward with a 20-lane freeway and really get some folks right downtown! Or we can bulldoze everything within Grand Boulevard and move Metro Airport there! That's good for 30 million people.

[Zads07]

Arenas don't revitalize downtowns, people do.

Again, what good will building another stadium do for the city?

[emu steve]

Arenas don't revitalize downtowns, people do.

Again, what good will building another stadium do for the city?

I can't answer such a NON-EMPIRICAL question* [[arenas don't... people do), but as I indicated 3 stadia will get 4 - 5M people downtown annually who wouldn't otherwise be coming on a Sunday afternoon to shop at Helen's Wig Shop. Lol.

Edit: * I can answer that question.

Stadium are built and exist and will exist to DRAW people to them for the explicit purpose of attending some event within them.

Whether that is someone [[your) definition of revitalization is up to each person to decide for him or herself.

There would not be 65K people where Ford Field is if it did not exist. They could just as easily be out in Pontiac, etc.

That might revitalize Pontiac but would do nothing for downtown Detroit.

[Atticus]

Times are different now. Thankfully downtown is in a much better place economically than it was 20 years ago. I will also concede that the downtown stadiums have helped with that change.

I would argue the biggest benefit of the downtown stadiums is that they brought people downtown, and allowed the fans to see the city core and the progress being made. While yes there were economic benefits associated with sports fans eating in Downtown restaurants, I would argue the best benefit was the “advertising” of the CBD.

In the 1990s, most people thought Detroit was a “bad and dangerous place”, and they would never think to visit [[let alone live) in the city core. But post 2000/2002, going to a few ballgames a year also meant seeing the city, seeing the beautiful architecture, and seeing what potential there was. Overtime, as progress was made improving the CBD, that progress was witnessed also by an audience that would never have otherwise seen it with their own eyes. I don’t know how you measure that, but it is important.

Now, most people in the region are proud of the city core. Downtown Detroit has once again become the region’s downtown. And because of that, [[some) forms of regionalism are politically possible now. It has gone a long way to break down some of the city vs suburbs barriers [[and yes there is still a long ways to go).

The main point is, some Suburbanites came into to Downtown Detroit for the first time in a generation [[and maybe first time ever) because of the downtown stadiums. And after attending several games, they have become more familiar and more accepting of city life. That has value, and would not have happened without the downtown stadiums.

So coming back to 2018 and the soccer stadium, I imagine it is also true that MLS would bring some other “new” people to Detroit that wouldn’t otherwise visit for MLB/NFL/NBA/NHL etc. However I will also admit that it is very much a diminished return, as probably most of those MLS fans are now visiting downtown for other reasons, and don’t need the MLS game to incentivize experiencing the city. And for that reason, I am much more weary about any tax dollars being used in the stadiums this time around, as you aren’t going to get the same benefit from a new downtown stadium that you did 20 years ago.

[masterblaster]

No. The stadia brought cars back downtown, not people. They are inherently anti-urban uses. The stadia are empty wastelands 95% of the time, except for massive traffic jams right before and after events, and some folks scurrying to their parking lots.

You cannot have a healthy urban neighborhood and a car-dependent stadium. It's completely impossible, which is why that corner of downtown is permanently screwed.


This is all nonsense. First, downtown Detroit was never abandoned. It was more thriving in the 70's and 80's than today [[though obviously on a downward curve). Second, Philly was in terrible shape in previous decades, not that different from Detroit.

Penn isn't right downtown and has nothing to do with Center City vibrancy. The Philly skyline has nothing to do with vibrancy either.

Philly has a thriving core [[probably second best in the U.S.) because it has an intact, pedestrian-scaled urban fabric. Detroit is still busy destroying its fabric for fundamentally anti-urban, auto-dependent uses. You have plenty of people who think it's a good idea to rip out the eastern half of downtown for a soccer field, of all things.

1. "The stadia are empty wastelands 95% of the time". I understand what you are saying, but actually Little Caesar's was built different. There are 3 restaurants, open daily, along Woodward that have entrances on Woodward, that people can just walk in. In addition, on the plaza on the south side of the arena is another restaurant called Sports & Social and a combined Team Store for the Pistons and Red Wings. Both are open 7 days a week. In addition, there is a Chevrolet Plaza outside the southwest corner of the stadium which is intended for outdoor events such as this Winter Beer Carnival that was held there last month

2. The purpose of mentioning the skyline of Philadelphia was to demonstrate the huge amount of investment that has gone into its core as compared to Detroit's core ever since the decline of both cities that began in 1950. Philly's downtown never declined to the extent as Detroit, so it never had to resort to building stadiums to get people to come back.

3. Even if downtown Detroit had no stadiums, and still had the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA and the Horseshoe 606, how can you say that it would be more thriving than it is today? Was the more intact street grid and original architecture going to reverse the flow of businesses from downtown Detroit? You yourself said that OAKLAND COUNTY, not downtown Detroit, is the economic engine of the Detroit Metro area - so yes downtown was abandoned for Troy, Southfield, I-275 Corridor, Auburn Hills etc.

4. "You have plenty of people who think it's a good idea to rip out the eastern half of downtown for a soccer field, of all things". This is hyperbole and misrepresentation. The only building of significance that might have been torn down for the stadium was the old DPD HQ. The Frank Murphy Hall of Justice, the Juvenile Detention center, and the half-finished jail weren't contributing to any vibrancy.

[Junjie]

Forgive me for butting in to your conversation but it's still a great and vital topic given decisions to be made re: MLS.

1. "The stadia are empty wastelands 95% of the time". I understand what you are saying, but actually Little Caesar's was built different....

LCA is by far the best-designed of the sports venues in urban terms and indeed is designed well even by national standards. I give them credit for that. But I'd take a second City Modern scale development on that site and a hockey arena on the fairgrounds any day.

3. Even if downtown Detroit had no stadiums, and still had the Wolverine Hotel and YWCA and the Horseshoe 606, how can you say that it would be more thriving than it is today? Was the more intact street grid and original architecture going to reverse the flow of businesses from downtown Detroit? ...

I accept that there was some benefit to stadiums bringing people downtown who otherwise would not have come. But even at this early date in Detroit's core re-growth, the stadiums are becoming limiting factors rather than catalysts.

Ideally, I think Comerica would be where Ford Field is, Ford Field would be off somewhere else [[Howell for all I care), and all the buildings you mention would be rehabbed. Certainly that would have been superior to what we have today. You can make an argument for 81+ baseball games per year, or for 82+ hockey and basketball games in a shared arena, but there's absolutely no argument for a football stadium with 10 events per year generating benefits to an urban area. It's just wasted space.

Of course we live with what we have now - so let's not compound the error with a soccer stadium that will get used 20 times a year [[nearly as bad a waste as football). And certainly we shouldn't bulldoze anything or rip out a street grid to do it.

4. "You have plenty of people who think it's a good idea to rip out the eastern half of downtown for a soccer field, of all things". This is hyperbole and misrepresentation. The only building of significance that might have been torn down for the stadium was the old DPD HQ. The Frank Murphy Hall of Justice, the Juvenile Detention center, and the half-finished jail weren't contributing to any vibrancy.

That may seem like it should be true, but in actuality a courthouse or even jail are far more supportive of urbanity than a stadium. Those buildings draw employees and visitors every single day who create demand for nearby restaurants, shops, can structure their commutes around fixed route transit, etc. A stadium would be empty space 345 days of the year.

I would love to see MLS in Detroit, but throwing away even a single block of a salvageable urban neighborhood to do it would be a waste. There are plenty of other large, cleared sites around the region.

[emu steve]

By the way a little 'reality check':

Comerica Park, Ford Field and Little Caesars Arena are built and relatively new or real new [[that's you, LCA) and aren't going anywhere.

This discussion is about as relevant as "should I have eaten that big piece of carrot cake last Sunday..."

The only remaining relevance is where would a soccer stadium, IF built, go. And I think most agree it would not be located next to the 'big 3', Comerica, Ford Field and LCA or elsewhere in downtown.

[emu steve]

I should have gone with standard English usage: Past tense, present tense, and future tense to explain my thoughts:

1). We live in the present tense.

2). We study the past [[and present) tense so as to make better decisions about the future.

3). The past is usually 'irreversible.' Can't donate a kidney and get it back, for example. It would be damn near impossible to rebuild the old Hudson's building [[even if someone wanted). Something can replace it which can be bigger [[or lot bigger), same size or smaller, but it is a new building.

As far as Detroit [[or S.E. Michigan, if you will), all three stadium/arena are less than 20 years old.

Unless Detroit, builds a MLS stadium it is unlikely that most of us baby boomers will see a new stadium built in Detroit/S.E. Michigan, unless we live to a ripe old age.

[EGrant]

Unless Detroit, builds a MLS stadium it is unlikely that most of us baby boomers will see a new stadium built in Detroit/S.E. Michigan unless we live to a ripe old age.

You never know! Just look at what happened to the Atlanta Braves, and what they want to do with the Rangers ballpark.

[emu steve]

You never know! Just look at what happened to the Atlanta Braves, and what they want to do with the Rangers ballpark.

True.

I would assume LCA is good for 50 years. Its design as an athletic facility and how it has commercial space, both outside and inside, the building would make it more 'durable' than a cookie cutter arena. The arena/adjacent buildings are absolutely state of the art and incorporates retail, residential, educational [[WSU bldg.)

Ford Field should be good for say another 25 years or so. It appears to be as good as new, well maintained, etc. etc. It is the 'right size' and looks as good now as the first time I saw it. I see no one in Detroit, in their right mind, to spend 1 - 1.5B for a new stadium which is only marginally better than Ford Field. The Ford family/city of Detrot aren't crazy like Jerry Jones [[a megalomaniac IMHO) of the Cowboys.

Comerica I don't think is aging well. I've seen other stadiums of the same age which are in better shape. I think Comerica was 10 years old the day it opened.

I'm not sure Comerica lasts another 20 years.

[southen]

I don't see any issue with the seating or suites for Comerica. I think the changes you may see are to the exterior structures through updating or expansion. I would love to see it eventually updated to look like a ballpark and not some Disney-esque eyesore with concrete tigers and ferris wheels.

[emu steve]

I don't see any issue with the seating or suites for Comerica. I think the changes you may see are to the exterior structures through updating or expansion. I would love to see it eventually updated to look like a ballpark and not some Disney-esque eyesore with concrete tigers and ferris wheels.

I hope you are right.

The original design is of Mr. I's ilk. I doubt Chris I. would have had or does have the same feelings about things you mention as negatives.