Pro soccer coming to Detroit?

[emu steve]

The D.C. United stadium is expected to cost about $150M [[exclusive of land and infrastructure costs).

D.C. bought the land and paid for the infrastructure. D.C. United is footing [[no pun intended) the construction costs of the stadium.

IF Detroit can get a similar deal, it would be great for the city.

In 10 or 15 years, say 50M for land and infrastructure would seem like a great bargain to get MLS soccer in Detroit.

In 10 - 15 year, Detroit may have to foot 250M to help get a team...

Someone please tell me how it is cheaper to get a MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL team today than 20 years ago.

Better to pony up say the cost of land and infrastructure today rather face spending much, much more at a later date.

[Atticus]

The D.C. United stadium is expected to cost about $150M [[exclusive of land and infrastructure costs).

D.C. bought the land and paid for the infrastructure. D.C. United is footing [[no pun intended) the construction costs of the stadium.

IF Detroit can get a similar deal, it would be great for the city.

In 10 or 15 years, say 50M for land and infrastructure would seem like a great bargain to get MLS soccer in Detroit.

In 10 - 15 year, Detroit may have to foot 250M to help get a team...

Someone please tell me how it is cheaper to get a MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL team today than 20 years ago.

Better to pony up say the cost of land and infrastructure today rather face spending much, much more at a later date.

But again, who pays for this soccer stadium? That is the several hundred million dollar question.

Is it the City/State? I am not disagreeing that a stadium/team will grow in value over time. But it is the league or team owners who recoup that growth, not the tax payer. Tax payer dollars could be better spent on other infrastructure or developments... AND if spent correctly would generate a better return in value for city/state as well.

Is it Gilbert who pays for the new stadium? I mean, I know he is rich, but honestly it would be better for the city if he built another Monroe Block development on the fail jail site, rather than spend the $ on a stadium. Gilbert can spend his money as he wishes, but I can’t believe paying for a new MLS stadium gets him the best return for his buck.

Is it Ilitch/Olympia? I guess I might be okay with that, but then again where do you put the stadium. And with Olympia stadiums comes the creation of more surface lots, which we don’t need.

Again, in a perfect world I am all for a nice outdoor soccer stadium with grass pitch. But money and downtown land are both limited, which makes me still believe Ford Field is the best choice for Detroit.

[SammyS]

So is it official that Detroit lost this round?

[southen]

I am hoping for a couple of things. One, that Gilbert redevelops the fail jail into a true mixed use district without soccer. Two, that MLS turns down Ford Field as a viable option and the ownership group has to find a new site. Three, they settle on the underutilized and industrial area around Fort Street in Corktown/Westside Industrial. There they can build something, perhaps with residential and office space, which would help transform a pretty desolate area and could perhaps draw development west towards it. Oh and they can fund the thing themselves, im done with taxpayer dollars going towards sports.

[emu steve]

Replaying to Atticus:

I'll say what I posted earlier: Detroit gets the land and infrastructure and Gilbert, et. al. foot the stadium construction costs.

That could keep the public cost to say 50M, which is a bargain compared to other stadia in Detroit and else where.

So it costs Detroit say 50M. Gilbert, et. al puts up 150M. 50M isn't chump change for Detroit but it does get a pro sports team. 150M isn't chump change even for Gilbert, et. al, but 150M will buy one new building ala Little Caesars headquarters. A 150M office building is hardly going to be trans-formative or start a land rush.

As far as the stadium location, IDK [[I don't know). The only thing I remember, I think, was a promise to build a stadium in downtown or river front. They apparently will not settle for a location off the beaten path.

I think given the choice of an undesirable location and not bringing a team to Detroit, the deal could fall through.

I think, finally, the notion that location doesn't matter [[so long as it is near a freeway and has gobs of surface parking where people park their cars, attend and then beat cheeks out to avoid traffic on the way home) has been debunked or at least out of favor.

No one today would build the Palace or that awful arena outside of Cleveland [[actually Richfield, 20 miles south of downtown CLE) which was the home of the Cavaliers for 20 years starting in the mid-70s. [[I actually attended a game there).

[hybridy]

https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/12/19...expansion-team

The league intended to name two teams this month, but Nashville is the only confirmed expansion entrant. That’s an indication of the strength of its bid, as well as a few remaining questions surrounding the other three finalists—Cincinnati, Detroit and Sacramento.

As the league continues to evaluate those three, it’s possible a decision and/or announcement could be delayed until after the holidays.

[emu steve]

https://www.si.com/soccer/2017/12/19...expansion-team

Here is Monty Hall when we need to "Let's make a deal."

This should be very interesting to see how it plays out.

[Bham1982]

No one today would build the Palace or that awful arena outside of Cleveland [[actually Richfield, 20 miles south of downtown CLE) which was the home of the Cavaliers for 20 years starting in the mid-70s. [[I actually attended a game there).

Yeah, who would want the highest attendance in the NBA year-over-year? Who would want the most profitable arena in North America? The Palace was both, for a number of years.

As for suburban stadia, they're built all the time. The Atlanta Braves just opened a suburban baseball park this year. The NY Islanders announced a [[semi) suburban hockey arena this afternoon.

[Hypestyles]

.... where would a riverfront stadium be built at?

[emu steve]

Yeah, who would want the highest attendance in the NBA year-over-year? Who would want the most profitable arena in North America? The Palace was both, for a number of years.

As for suburban stadia, they're built all the time. The Atlanta Braves just opened a suburban baseball park this year. The NY Islanders announced a [[semi) suburban hockey arena this afternoon.

The Atlanta stadium is indeed suburban, just outside the city limits. Correct? Say 12 miles from downtown?

Don't know how to respond to the New York Islanders situation. I have never been to Elmont, N.Y., which I believe is just outside of N.Y. limits, so it is close in suburbs.

That said, neither the Braves or Islanders are comparable to the god-awful things they used to do by building stadiums 20 miles from downtown.

[313WX]

The Atlanta stadium is indeed suburban, just outside the city limits. Correct? Say 12 miles from downtown?

The new Atlanta Braves stadium is located in unincorporated Cobb County, within the Cumberland Office Park.

But oddly enough, it still has an Atlanta mailing address.

[Atticus]

Steve-
I respect and appreciate the response. Please note I am not trying to be difficult, I just have a hard time justifying any tax payer money being spent on stadiums. Especially when Ford Field would be more than adequate for soccer, and millions would be spent just to upgrade the experience to a better one outdoors. I might be able to look the other way if the City gave away land they already owned, but that would be about as far as I could go with it.

In response to other comments regarding building not downtown [[i.e. Corktown, Riverfront, etc.): Once the stadium is outside the greater downtown and not withing walking distance of the hotels, restaurants, and other attractions, does it really matter at that point if it is in the City or Suburbs? I mean, I get yes you can build a "village and hotel" around the place like we see with Atlanta Braves, but most people are then driving in and driving out after the game, and maybe having a meal or drink in the attached mall. That is why I like Ford Field, is that it utilizes existing infrastructure in the downtown, and is in actual walking distance of places where people actually live. And to repeat, I don't want to see precious downtown real estate spent on a soccer stadium that is not used 90% of the year.

[emu steve]

I still like the area behind the Fox, if parcel assembly would work [[It didn't for a hockey arena) or near 3rd/4th and Temple.

As far as behind the Fox, is it as desirable as beautiful new buildings? No. Is it better than surface parking lots? Yes!

I remember that the 3/4th and Temple area was NOT liked by some posters, but the 'landscape' has changed with the fail jail site now out of consideration.

As we have discussed, Gilbert, et. al. are ponying up a lot of money on this venture and they don't want some 3rd rate site. Same with the Ilitches, who wants to spend 850B+ on an arena in some 2nd or 3rd tier site?

I believe they won't accept anything other than a downtown or river front site. I believe that is what they promised MLS.

[Atticus]

I still like the area behind the Fox, if parcel assembly would work [[It didn't for a hockey arena) or near 3rd/4th and Temple.

As far as behind the Fox, is it as desirable as beautiful new buildings? No. Is it better than surface parking lots? Yes!

I remember that the 3/4th and Temple area was NOT liked by some posters, but the 'landscape' has changed with the fail jail site now out of consideration.

As we have discussed, Gilbert, et. al. are ponying up a lot of money on this venture and they don't want some 3rd rate site. Same with the Ilitches, who wants to spend 850B+ on an arena in some 2nd or 3rd tier site?

I believe they won't accept anything other than a downtown or river front site. I believe that is what they promised MLS.

I think the area behind the Fox is off the table. Olympia rakes in the $ from parking on those parcels, and would expect to be compensated well in order to give up those money machines. Selfishly, I would also hate to see the downtown street grid get broken up, so I hold out hope that 20 to 30 years later those surface lots may one day turn into actual infill.

And here is the other part..., by the time you factor in the worth of the land that it would take to acquire a downtown stadium site, and then add in the ridiculous "increased" expansion team fee, and then add in the cost of a "first rate" stadium... you could easily be topping $1billion. Which brings me to this question: If Detroit had a billion dollars to spend, would it be better to have a MLS franchise, or take that billion and build a Hudson Tower #2 somewhere? I am a sports guy, but I would vote for a Hudson's #2 in a heartbeat.

[Hypestyles]

So how many home games do MLS teams play during the season? how much time would this take up during the spring/summer?

if Detroit is chosen, when would the team be ready to start playing? How many jobs would this generate locally in terms of non-player personnel?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

-MLS plays 34 regular season games, meaning the city would get 17 games a year, plus a few preseason and potentially a few post season.

-If Detroit were selected, the team could be launched for the 2019 season. The organization of putting together a team would take about a year; Ford Field's conversion for soccer could be ready in a very short time.

-MLS teams do not have, directly, the levels of support staff, administration, and infrastructure that the big leagues of the other 4 sports do. So there would be no huge bump in jobs. Of course the game day staff at Ford Field would get triple the shifts per year. But some teams invest substantially in training, junior league teams and camps, and community soccer. Varies club to club.

I am not quite sure of what to make of Nashville being announced first, other than they had the clearest and largest on-the-record taxpayer commitment to a stadium. Sacramento's stadium is already begun, and not using direct taxpayer dollars. Cincy I thought would be ahead of Nashville in part because MLS would like to keep a franchise in Ohio [[Columbus Crew is all but certain to move to Austin). And, of course, I am on record for saying how strong our bid is.

Now, I doubt MLS will delay further than this week another announcement[[s), because among other reasons, just last week after the owners meetings they said they would hold announcements in the winning cities this week. I think that statement came after the selection meeting. I suspect tomorrow we will hear rumors of the city they will announce Thursday, like we did today with Nashvillie.

Over the last year, when we have been in serious contention for an MLS team, I have evolved in my thinking about the need for and wisdom of a soccer stadium downtown. When the prospect seemed to be: stadium or jail downtown, it was a no-brainer for me. But time has shown no shortage of other productive uses for downtown land. Gilbert and Gores would have kept to the soccer idea if that would have made the most money at the Fail Jail site. Clearly, though, with downtown truly booming and blooming, using a big chunk of downtown space for the soccer stadium just isn't the best use of space for any parcel big enough in the greater downtown area. If we miss out on this round, that will be too bad, but still a wise choice. And I don't think G-G would turn around and announce new stadium plans elsewhere. A Detroit team makes sense at Ford Field. If the switch were thought to be disqualifying, I am not sure how or why we would have made the list of 4*. But, who knows? The owners who voted last week are individuals with their own opinions, agendas, and whims.

*Miami is not competing with the other cities for a franchise, it has been officially been awarded one. The only way they are involved is a possible switch in years for them to begin play. Detroit is the only city that could realistically launch in 2019 [[Miami's original launch date), or 2020 or 2022.

[emu steve]

I think the area behind the Fox is off the table. Olympia rakes in the $ from parking on those parcels, and would expect to be compensated well in order to give up those money machines. Selfishly, I would also hate to see the downtown street grid get broken up, so I hold out hope that 20 to 30 years later those surface lots may one day turn into actual infill.

And here is the other part..., by the time you factor in the worth of the land that it would take to acquire a downtown stadium site, and then add in the ridiculous "increased" expansion team fee, and then add in the cost of a "first rate" stadium... you could easily be topping $1billion. Which brings me to this question: If Detroit had a billion dollars to spend, would it be better to have a MLS franchise, or take that billion and build a Hudson Tower #2 somewhere? I am a sports guy, but I would vote for a Hudson's #2 in a heartbeat.

But, remember it is not "Detroit's" money. It is Gilbert, Gores, etc. who are spending the money and Gilbert is not un-funding any project so that he can get a soccer franchise.

And that 1B number is way, way too high.

The quoted number for the D.C. United stadium is less than 300M [[and that includes the price of D.C. land, estimated at say 100M+). So that is the only number that the city would have to put up a fraction of.

[archfan]

Don't know how to respond to the New York Islanders situation. I have never been to Elmont, N.Y., which I believe is just outside of N.Y. limits, so it is close in suburbs.

The thing you need to know about Elmont is that it is on Long Island. That returns the Islanders [[ahhhh!) to their home base.

[emu steve]

The thing you need to know about Elmont is that it is on Long Island. That returns the Islanders [[ahhhh!) to their home base.

Yeah, who would like a team known as the Brooklyn Islanders.

I did know that Elmont is the home of Belmont Park.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Yeah, who would like a team known as the Brooklyn Islanders.

I did know that Elmont is the home of Belmont Park.

FWIW: Brooklyn and Queens are on Long Island, just not the suburban part. They are already islanders, in the geographic sense. In fact, the only 1 of 5 NYC boroughs not actually on an island is The Bronx, and even it has several islands.

[Bham1982]

Yeah, Brooklyn is Long Island, same as Elmont is Long Island.

The issue with the Islanders is that Barclays Arena wasn't built for hockey. They needed a hockey-specific venue, so they have to build new.

Elmont is on the Queens/Nassau County border and is closer to the typical Islanders fan, plus there's a large rail station on-site.

Elmont is technically suburban, but by Michigan standards would probably be considered urban [[it's suburban like, say Hamtramck or East Dearborn are suburban).

[Danny]

Detroit has lost the bid for a Major League soccer team. Our next bid will be on the year 2021.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Detroit has lost the bid for a Major League soccer team. Our next bid will be on the year 2021.

Not sure of your source; I'll wait for the official word. But MLS has said the next 2 slots would be awarded next year for 2022. I'm not sure where 2021 would come into play.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

A quick Google search found that the MLS commissioner has said that the next winner might not be announced before the start of the new MPS season in March... That is contrary to statements made last week. I was hoping it would be sooner. Maybe an Easter present instead of a Christmas one.

[archfan]

FWIW: Brooklyn and Queens are on Long Island,

Oops! Do Brooklynites think of themselves as Long Islanders?