Michigan's same sex marriage ban declared unconstitutional

[Zacha341]

First, let me say this clearly: There are caring and good people on both sides of this difficult issue, and there are going to be winners and losers whatever the courts determine. To believe otherwise sets forth a construct were freedom of opinion is justifiably stilted right at the start.

Perhaps some desire a stilted outcome. I do not!

Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.

Talk about a race-to-the-bottom, or shall I say CHASE-to-the-bottom!

Further, the 'die off' premise is useless as there will remain [[young and old) those who'll not compromise their position for moral and other reasons -- locally and globally. That percentage will not just be the oldsters -- one foot in the coffin.

And, perhaps, shockingly to some, some of these 'haters' actually have gay friends and family members that they LOVE! They have a voice and struggle in this too.

Sadly, however some may choose to keep their views private against being codified a 'hater'. Similar to those who fear being called racist if they make any criticism re. another race or view on something of a racial content.

If silencing is a goal [[or outworking) I would not call that a victory per se.

As more and more bigoted old people die off and are replaced by young people that are more loving and accepting of others the overall attitude will change.

[Scottathew]

Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.

I don't feel that my comments were attempting to demonize the opposition. I was just noting that old people tend to be less tolerant, more racist, and more homophobic.

The gay people in the older generation hid. My grandfather didn't think he had friends who were gay because it was so taboo.

My main point was that there is generation on this earth right now that perpetuated and implemented a society with negros serving their needs that sat in the back of the bus, used different bathrooms, and couldn't drink form the same water fountain. That generation is more likely to hate people who are gay. That generation is dying at a rapid rate from natural causes. Old people tend to vote more, so a huge opposition to gay marriage is literally dying off, and those votes are being replaced by more tolerant and accepting people.

[Blueidone]

The Bible says a lot of stuff, do you blindly subscribe to all of it? Or just the parts that allow you to hate people who are different?

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

[trotwood]

LOL!! Hilarious post&a wonderful point.If there were a DY 'Hall of Fame' you would definitely be in it.I like this......I like it a lot.

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

[southofbloor]

The following was part of an episode of "West Wing". It is my favorite argument for "the Bible says so"....


A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 [[That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.

Exodus 21:7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do."

"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"

Exodus 35:2 "On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death."

"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"

Leviticus 11 7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. 8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you."

"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?



"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?

Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

"Think about those questions, would you?"

Thanks for this. I was raised in the very conservative Plymouth Brethren and it took a long time to get through coming out and relaxing about the knowledge that I was gay, despite what I had been taught based on a few isolated scriptures. But then having been adopted from a birth out of wedlock I was probably doomed anyway. Deuteronomy 23:2 And many of us would likely be stoned by now by rights. Deut 22: 20-21. Lev. 20:9 And a whole lot of Detroiters would be handless. Mark 9:43 And I should be looking very differently at my dead brother's wife Mark 12:19.

There is a lot of good useful material in the bible about how to treat people who are different from you with dignity, respect your surroundings and creator, and live at peace with the world in all of its fantastic variation. I just wish the coalitions of pastors would focus more on how to encourage positive behaviour and less on negative politics directed at people they don't currently agree with. They should know better, behave more responsibly, and show leadership on that front - our society would be in a far better place if they could make that leap.

Zacha is right - much like racism, there will be those who remain bigoted in the future, but the people who feel comfortable arguing these positions in public and making laws like this will eventually adjust their thinking or die off still bitter and angry, and perhaps not all, but most of their grandchildren will be embarrassed for what they publicly argued.

In the meantime congrats to my Michigander friends for making another step toward a just and tolerant society. And for those fearing the wrath of God upon you for this step, gay marriage has been allowed in Canada since 2005 and our world didn't implode.

[dtowncitylover]

Yes, but we humans are unique under God's image. When God made a declaration that Homosexuality is an abomination, don't do it. If you decided to do it. You're rejecting its rule and disagreeing of its commandments. You can believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. But when the Holy Trinity see you doing nasty things. They not be involve with your sins, but they will take your sins away. Instead of you denounce your iniquities.

If you are homosexual that was your decision. You made a decision to stay out of the church and calling God a liar! [[ If you still attending church). Some folks who confess their homosexuality from national and social media to any religious institutions will risk their lives. If you're homosexual keep it a secret! If you decided to release your homosexuality in public, get ready to lose anyone you love, get ready to lose your job and get ready to lost place in any religious institution. [[ At least you can join a cult like the UU Church, which its not a church!)

Danny thank you for this post because it truly represents what some people believe, like you. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus Christ His son who died for my sins. It's this "straight privilege" that some people have. You being straight isn't a secret because it's assumed. I don't want to be "up in your face" about it, but I want to be honest with myself in front of my friends, family, and co-workers without the fear of retaliation. Luckily I have loving friends and family and church friends who love me for me. Sexuality is not a choice, it's biology and its a dice roll. Biology is a beautiful and diverse world of God's creation, and sexuality is a part of that. Just like color, personality, size, talents, etc.

We also like to think that the Catholic Church, probably one of the most vocal against same-sex marriage, is some homophobic institution. I grew up in that Church and while I left it due to various reasons, I didn't really leave it because I was gay. If I came out to the Church, I knew they wouldn't disown me. They would love me but tell me I can't act on my thoughts, based on thought that's 1000s of years old. [[Hey straight people, try not to act on our most natural of desires!) I can't accept that God doesn't want me to show my love for someone and therefore suppress my sexuality and desire to love. Remember, God is Love. [[My feelings on the Catholic Church are extremely dichotomic, if you couldn't tell).

Much of what the old guard thinks about homosexuality comes from passed down beliefs and traditions. This is the modern age full of modern knowledge and thought. What we know now wasn't known 100, 1000, 10,000 years ago.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The stay was inevitable; it was just a question of when. I was hoping to make it through the weekend though.

I too am optimistic, dtowncitylover. To quote the famous Unitarian minister and abolistionist Theodore Parker [[whose words were paraphrased by MLK,)

“I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight, I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice.”

[Meddle]

Religious zealots revert to 'The Word' when they don't have any other argument or explanation. It IS because 'The Word' says it is.

[Zacha341]

LOL! Made even worse and laughable to the scorners when no particular scripture is quoted, but then in most cases I saw why 'go there' in a secular environment. It often just leads off to another ugly situation and debate.

Religious zealots revert to 'The Word' when they don't have any other argument or explanation. It IS because 'The Word' says it is.

[gnome]

The central function of state-sanctioned marriage is not to promote sexual activity, if it was people with certain handicaps would be prohibited from marriage. Really old folks would be denied the right to marry if procreation was the reason for state-sponsored marriage.

the reason for marriage is social cohesion. To that end, any adult should be able to marry another adult.

However, this stand does brush against the idea of plural marriage.

[Meddle]

The central function of state-sanctioned marriage is ...

... to raise revenue from licensing fees.

[Zacha341]

Awesome point. The gov always has a dog in the fight!

... to raise revenue from licensing fees.

[Meddle]

"The Book" was written by a bunch of lonely guys who spent too much time drinking wine under the hot sun with their sheep.

[Zacha341]

"The Book" was written by a bunch of lonely guys who spent too much time drinking wine under the hot sun with their sheep.

Umm, eh-yeah. Withstanding what side of the gay marriage issue you're on - add to your entertainment - google this:

“The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on.

The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles.”

[SDCC]

Gather Around One And All…an inquisition will get the answers you’re looking for. All these heathens and non-believers need to be introduced to the very inventive methods in the torture arena; from Constantine, to Charlemagne, to the Crusades, to the Inquisition, religions have killed, maimed and tortured their beliefs upon others since the time of antiquity.

But back to the inquisition, you would need to appoint an Inquisitor – pronouncing death and torture sentences, and what not.
This position would be filled by one fellow board member – and there seem to be several that are standing in line; chomping at the bit to impress their childhood fairy tales on one another, even if it kills, and it sounds like they would.

[Zacha341]

Agreed. The misuse of, or direct goal of some religions has resulted in the killing and maiming of many, unarguably.

But, far more from those so imperious to consider themselves 'god', imposing their doctrine of the state upon the masses!

Umm let's see -- on the short list:

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

Gather Around One And All…an inquisition will get the answers you’re looking for. All these heathens and non-believers need to be introduced to the very inventive methods in the torture arena; from Constantine, to Charlemagne, to the Crusades, to the Inquisition, religions have killed, maimed and tortured their beliefs upon others since the time of antiquity.

[Meddle]

Agreed. The misuse of, or direct goal of some religions has resulted in the killing and maiming of many, unarguably.

But, far more from those so imperious to consider themselves 'god', imposing their doctrine of the state upon the masses!

Umm let's see -- on the short list:

Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
Pol Pot - 2,397,0003

You forgot the Roman Catholic Church whose numbers over the centuries I'm sure would dwarf those and who still today considers women less than men.

[Zacha341]

No problem. Toss 'em in if you'll feel better. That was and is the power side-taking 'politics' of religion mingling in mans inhumanity to man. Further, my point was to make plain that murder and genocide is not a 'religion' only construct as so often stated as fact. My partial list and history bear that out.

You forgot the Roman Catholic Church whose numbers over the centuries I'm sure would dwarf those and who still today considers women less than men.

[noise]

Summarily demonizing everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater' is very intolerant IMO.

This is such a dishonest argument.

Opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, plain and simple. There's not a single logical reason to be opposed.

Being tolerant to intolerance is absurd. Furthermore, get over the whole "tolerance" thing. Misappropriating it doesn't help your argument.

[Zacha341]

Thanks for weighing in your opinion. Especially the 'plain and simple' aspect relative to a complex issue which is neither.

It is not logical to summarize everyone in opposition to gay marriage as a 'hater'. I am standing on that, firm.

Regarding the term 'Tolerance' in its contemporary use I'm curious, aside from this topic, as to why it is often incorrectly used to infer 'endorsement' or 'agreement'??

Look up the word:

tol·er·ance

noun: tolerance

• 1. the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
  "the tolerance of corruption"
  

  synonyms:

  acceptance, toleration; Moreopen-mindedness, broad-mindedness, forbearance, liberality, liberalism; patience, charity, indulgence, understanding "an attitude of tolerance toward other people"

  • the capacity to endure continued subjection to something, esp. a drug, transplant, antigen, or environmental conditions, without adverse reaction.
    plural noun: tolerances
    "the desert camel shows the greatest tolerance to dehydration"
    

    synonyms:

    endurance of, resistance to, resilience to, resistance to, immunity to More"she has a low tolerance to alcohol"

  • diminution in the body's response to a drug after continued use.
  
  
• 2. an allowable amount of variation of a specified quantity, esp. in the dimensions of a machine or part.
  "250 parts in his cars were made to tolerances of one thousandth of an inch"

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

This is such a dishonest argument.

Opposition to gay marriage is bigotry, plain and simple. There's not a single logical reason to be opposed.

Being tolerant to intolerance is absurd. Furthermore, get over the whole "tolerance" thing. Misappropriating it doesn't help your argument.

You mean you don't buy the "I have gay friends and family and love them but don't want them to have equal rights" line? I have a bit of a hard time believing it too. To me its similar to some southern matriarch saying "we're not bigots - we love our colored maid - she's a part of the family!"

[Zacha341]

I can see how one could derive similarities on judging that, but it is not the same. Specifically, that is not what I mean. Well stated position however.

You mean you don't buy the "I have gay friends and family and love them but don't want them to have equal rights" line? I have a bit of a hard time believing it too. To me its similar to some southern matriarch saying "we're not bigots - we love our colored maid - she's a part of the family!"

[Pam]

As I have stated here on other threads, it is only a matter of time before the government begins to dictate what Christian churches and pastors can say and determine as orthodoxy.

Not going to happen. That would be unconstitutional.

By the way, churches will not be forced to perform same sex marriages if they don't want to.

[Zacha341]

Stranger things have happened across the globe. Tina Turner sang "What's Love Go To With It?"... the new song 'trending' will be substituting the word Love with "the Constitution" ......

Eh, anyone wanna weigh in how long it will take before ALL churches [[Christian or secular based) will be 'obliged' to marry same sex couples? Or be deemed as 'hateful'.

We can leave Islam [[Mosques here in the states) out for now, they may be more hearty to withstand a tax-exemption status pull... or time in the courts.

Not going to happen. That would be unconstitutional.

By the way, churches will not be forced to perform same sex marriages if they don't want to.

[dtowncitylover]

Eh, anyone wanna weigh in how long it will take before ALL churches [[Christian or secular based) will be 'obliged' to marry same sex couples? Or be deemed as 'hateful'.

While the Lutheran churches of Scandinavia and The Church of England are state churches I'm not sure if they are "forced" to perform same-sex marriages, I can tell you that churches [[that aren't state sanctioned) in nations that have same-sex marriage are forced to perform these marriages. While some like to think that the western European states are atheistic, secular hellholes, the Catholic Church is very strong in some parts and still active against same-sex marriage, not because they are forced to but because the Catholic Church is still a patriarchal hierarchy and anything that threatens that power must be crushed. In fact, gays don't care about them. We want to be treated the same in civil, secular society not within the Catholic Church. I don't think alot of gays are wishing to get married in churches that treat them as less than, and to believe gays will take over your church to get married is extreme thinking.

And Danny, your posts are only relevant to any gays that take the Bible as literal. And to call the UU Church a cult is hilarious. Jehovah's Witnesses are members of a cult. UU Church is a bit too loose for me, but they are the complete opposite of a cult. A cult is not liberal in their theology and beliefs. It is a strict and degrading organization brought about for mind control and power over members.