Where are the "Trade Schools" now that we need them?

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 10:25 AM

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2011/05...rce-committee/ A while back, [[a long, long, way back) I attended Wilbur Wright Trade School located on 12th. street [[Rosa Parks) and Grand River. I had to take two busses to get there, the Gratiot bus to the end of the line behind Hudson's, then I caught the Grand River bus at Fort and Griswold to 12th. street. The travel time was over an hour. I chose Wilbur Wright because it offered the best automotive curriculum in the state. I never regretted my choice as I received the best all round education in everything automotive. They had a chassis lab, engine lab, electrical lab, and a fully functional garage where the public could bring their cars in and have them serviced for only the cost of the parts. You were also required to take machine shop courses.
Not only that, they had great math and science teachers. [[A shout out to Mr.[[Sudsy) Lathers, my math teacher, the greatest teacher in the world!
What I'm getting at is, with all the kids either dropping out of high school or graduating from college with 50K and more in college loans and no job, we need to bring back the trade schools. Above, is a link to the address that Mike Rowe, star of the TV series, "Dirty Jobs" proposed to congress: [[Tried to post link here but it didn't work)
I am now working in an automotive testing facility where my 25+ years of turning wrenches was key to me getting hired. My machine shop experience enabled me to use my knowledge to fabricate fixtures for various tests we perform. Right now there is a shortage of people trained in CNC machining. Where are the schools that train the people that want to get into a trade without having to go to a university?

**Hamtragedy** · March-15-14, 11:07 AM

When the economy tanked and auto workers lost their jobs, and all the machine shops moved to China, there was an initiative thru community colleges to retrain a lot of the affected employees in, among other things, CNC machining. Macomb Community College still offers CNC training, but from an article I heard on the news the other day, Community College enrollment figures are drastically reduced even from a couple years ago, resulting in cut-backs.

I think another issue became, even with the reduced-cost training, most entry level CNC jobs are paying, what, a fraction of what said employee was used to making before the market tanked. Oddly enough, now that machine shops are realizing that cheap labor in China didn't translate to "skilled labor" the machine shops are moving back, but not to Detroit or Ferndale or Warren, but to 23 Mile and Hayes, so the job that used to pay 25/hr is now paying 13/hr and where the hell is 23 and Hayes.

Off the subject, Wilbur Wright's reputation during WWII was such that, even black students were recruited by the military to join the war effort for their mechanic and machine skills, including those required on airplanes [[Wilbur Wright, go figure!!). Also, if you're referring to a long time ago as being in the 80's or 90's was that Mr. Lathers a chunky bearded white-guy?, cuz we a had a "sub" at Renaissance for a long time who for a few semesters had his own math classes, but was low man on the scrotum pole, so he may have been bumped to Murray Wright.

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 12:07 PM

Hamtragedy:
Actually, a "long, long, time ago" was 1965-1967. So Mr. Lathers could indeed be the math teacher that you mention. During my sophomore year they opened Murray Wright. We had to walk from Wilbur Wright where we took our shop courses to Murray Wright where we had the academic classes. So yes he could be one and the same only he probably came from Murray Wright. And yes, he was a bearded white guy only not so chunky back then. But then, I was not so chunky back then!

**Wesley Mouch** · March-15-14, 11:14 AM

dg, I suggest that our educational system has become too rigid in its thinking. We want all students to go to college. But of course not everyone should nor wants to. Trades are just as important as 'college prep'. Probably much more important.

This rigidity needs to be broken. Your story is great. [[And I likewise remember an early math teacher as the greatest teacher in the world.)

The biggest benefit of charter schools in my mind is breaking the lock of the current 'big Education' and 'big Labor' on schools. Can you imagine a regular school district trying to create a Trade School? Do you think they could hire you? Probably not. You didn't take Education in college. So you're not worthy. And you probably aren't in the Union. No, let's use our seniority system and send Mr. C. Fingernails. He's never touched a wrench, but its his right to that job.

You ask where the schools are that train people for trades. I don't know. Is it all 'on-the-job'? Or are there good trade programs in high school that I don't know about. Have we left this field to 'ITT Tech' and other for-profit schools?

**Dan Wesson** · March-15-14, 11:15 AM

Trade schools were big when there was an economy to rebuild and men who were returning home from WWII/Korea intersected.

Do such conditions exist today and [[loaded question) who and what stands in the way?

**mwilbert** · March-15-14, 11:20 AM

http://michigan.gov/documents/MICHIG...TY_57080_7.htm

Not all of these are what I would call trade schools, but a lot of them are.

**Lowell** · March-15-14, 11:55 AM

There is Focus Hope and each of the Big 3 have UAW / Their Name training / retraining programs, for example UAW-Chrysler National Training Center.

**Dan Wesson** · March-15-14, 01:07 PM

My elementry school,grades k-4, were located in the Trombley Trade Building & School on Harper and Baldwin. Trombley Trade later became part of Kettering High. That too also required a walk across the Ford Freeway to the main Bldg.

I somewhat remember the older guys and machine shops back then.

Later a lot of classes geared toward Kettering students who weren't on the college track took place at the Trombley Bldg. Those classes were geared towards finding work when you graduated.

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 02:20 PM

When I went to Andrew Jackson Intermediate back in 1951-1953, you had to take a year of General Shop in the 7th grade and a semester of Machine Shop and a semester of Wood Shop in the 8th grade. You also took a year of Drafting in the 8th grade. All high schools had complete machine shops, wood shops, and print shops as well as large mechanical drawing class rooms for the non-college prep students. The most dedicated of the vocational students would go to Cass Tech where a diploma was an automatic ticket into the world of work.

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 05:18 PM

Hermod:

I too, went to Jackson Jr. High, 1963-1965. Took wood shop and drafting. Mr. Burgess was our drafting teacher. I also took a print shop class there. Can't remember the other teachers name. I was in Mr. Braisted's class when President Kennedy was shot, he came in crying and sent us all home. Couldn't do that now days.

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by dguy4evr

Hermod:

I too, went to Jackson Jr. High, 1963-1965. Took wood shop and drafting. Mr. Burgess was our drafting teacher. I also took a print shop class there. Can't remember the other teachers name. I was in Mr. Braisted's class when President Kennedy was shot, he came in crying and sent us all home. Couldn't do that now days.

Mr Bird-doo was my drafting teacher too. The woodshop teacher's name was Mr Nancarrow.

**Don K** · March-16-14, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

When I went to Andrew Jackson Intermediate back in 1951-1953, you had to take a year of General Shop in the 7th grade and a semester of Machine Shop and a semester of Wood Shop in the 8th grade. You also took a year of Drafting in the 8th grade. All high schools had complete machine shops, wood shops, and print shops as well as large mechanical drawing class rooms for the non-college prep students. The most dedicated of the vocational students would go to Cass Tech where a diploma was an automatic ticket into the world of work.

In a fairly upscale district [[more like Plymouth than GP or BH) in NJ in 66-68 we took a semester of wood shop and a semester of mechanical drawing in 7th grade, followed by a semester of metal shop and another semester of drawing in 8th grade. I think my mom had the cutting board I made in wood shop til the day she died

It proved to me that I had no aptitude whatsoever for working with my hands.

**248lurker** · March-15-14, 03:34 PM

This seems to be a companion thread to the one recently posted about Marathon Oil. It makes me wonder if Marathon would have an easier time finding qualified CoD residents as employees if there was vocational education that was geared towards the jobs they want to fill.

I don't even think my school district even offers Vocational Auto any more. I think interested students may have to pursue it through the Oakland Technical Center.

**ddaydetroit** · March-15-14, 05:12 PM

I own a shop and finding skilled labor is almost impossible it took us 6 months to find 1 top notch welder that we could trust working on the high dollar equipment we repair.
When we put ads online we are lucky to even get one or two resumes worth looking at I also deal with many shops and shop owners and they are having the same problem finding non production CNC machine operators I see the help wanted signs all over. Wednesday March 12 I was in Oklahoma on business I drove pass a billboard sign that a local business had turned into a huge welders wanted sign it's that bad.
Yes there are many welders out there but the ones with good welding skills and work ethics have jobs and many out of work skilled welders that send me resumes we find out there is usually a good reason they are not working.
Where I went to high school we had a great weld and machine shop and some idiot years ago decided Utica high needed to get rid of the shop classes and put in computer labs everyone I know who took and did well in vocational welding and machine shop is in high demand making a decent living and did it without running up a high college tuition. I actually posted something about this about a month ago in the non-Detroit section

**Richard** · March-19-14, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by ddaydetroit

I own a shop and finding skilled labor is almost impossible it took us 6 months to find 1 top notch welder that we could trust working on the high dollar equipment we repair.
When we put ads online we are lucky to even get one or two resumes worth looking at I also deal with many shops and shop owners and they are having the same problem finding non production CNC machine operators I see the help wanted signs all over. Wednesday March 12 I was in Oklahoma on business I drove pass a billboard sign that a local business had turned into a huge welders wanted sign it's that bad.
Yes there are many welders out there but the ones with good welding skills and work ethics have jobs and many out of work skilled welders that send me resumes we find out there is usually a good reason they are not working.
Where I went to high school we had a great weld and machine shop and some idiot years ago decided Utica high needed to get rid of the shop classes and put in computer labs everyone I know who took and did well in vocational welding and machine shop is in high demand making a decent living and did it without running up a high college tuition. I actually posted something about this about a month ago in the non-Detroit section

I read a piece a few weeks back about the auto builders in the south were trying to get the Detroit based support shops to set up closer to them,the reply from Detroit was that the monies were not worth the relocation.

Because of the currant skilled labor shortage it would seem at this time Detroit has the upper hand,but as the training kicks in it may be left in the dust in the future unless one can be sure 100% that the big three will stay committed no matter what the cost.

I have run the numbers and they are out there showing that because of taxes,cost of living etc. the lower perceived wage of the south is in line with the north.

Would it not be considered an investment for the local Detroit established machine and trade shops to establish a neutral training center and in essence provide the labor to both north and south as additional locations? Neutral meaning it is up to the individual to decide union or not.

It would in essence control the labor market with supply and demand determining the average wage.

You can really take the dumbest kid on the block but works well with their hands and make a good CNC operator out of them,we seem to judge to much on book smarts then actual ability.

My shop classes in school in the early 70s were,electrician,plumbing,machine shop including metal casting,automotive,carpentry.That was in Mlps though.

**Hermod** · March-20-14, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Richard

You can really take the dumbest kid on the block but works well with their hands and make a good CNC operator out of them,we seem to judge to much on book smarts then actual ability.

I have a nephew that was the proverbial "box of rocks" growing up, but the kid was a good worker, responsible, trainable, and motivated. Today he is 50 and has a really good job as a tool and die maker. His "smarter" younger brothers were no where near as successful.

**nain rouge** · March-20-14, 11:06 PM

One thing people that don't work on the floor forget is how much it sucks. I've worked industrial jobs and it's hell. You make good money, but you pretty much have to become an alcoholic or be as "dumb as a box of rocks" to deal with it. You spend 10 or more hours a day in noisy, windowless caverns, doing repetitive tasks for bosses that seem to think they have to break your spirit military-style to turn you into a good worker. What's money good for if that's your life?

The days of dreamers like Henry Ford building well-ventilated "crystal palaces" for workers are long gone. Sure, he was all about efficiency, too, but at least he seemed to have a heart. There aren't many like that these days.

**douglasm** · March-15-14, 05:57 PM

I don't know about back in Michigan, but out here [[Washington) a lot of "trade school" training is cone on the community college level. With all the apple orchards out here, and their corresponding packing sheds and cold storage facilities, trained HVAC workers are hard to come by, so the local CC put together a course that has been very well received.

I wonder if one of the problems is that as things become more complex, the necessary training also has. Ddaydetroit's point about finding qualified top notch welders to work on "high dollar equipment" could point to the thought that a welder who was "qualified" 30 or 40 years ago couldn't come close to being qualified to work on the complex equipment now in use. The operating engineers union in Seattle has set up a large training area outside of Ellensburg that includes high rise cranes to train people. That wouldn't have happened 30 years ago.

**Hypestyles** · March-15-14, 06:02 PM

There should be a lot more trade schools in Detroit proper, and elsewhere in the region. I don't see why the various local/regional skilled trade associations have not "adopted" local, currently empty school buildings and set up their own middle/high schools and training centers for adults. Why not?

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

There should be a lot more trade schools in Detroit proper, and elsewhere in the region. I don't see why the various local/regional skilled trade associations have not "adopted" local, currently empty school buildings and set up their own middle/high schools and training centers for adults. Why not?

When I went to Denby in the fall of 1953, as a part of our orientation we were told to choose a "track" as College Prep, Vocational, Commercial, or "General Education". In the 1960s, the term "tracking" became a dirty word in the civil rights movement. I believe that was the beginning of the decline for vocational and commercial high school education.

**dguy4evr** · March-15-14, 08:09 PM

Hermod:

That'd hilarious! We called him Mr. Birdshit too!!! I don't know if my woodshop teacher's name was Mr. Nancarrow or not but I do remember he had a special paddle made with holes in it to cut down on wind resistance when he paddled someone.

**Hermod** · March-15-14, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by dguy4evr

Hermod:

That'd hilarious! We called him Mr. Birdshit too!!! I don't know if my woodshop teacher's name was Mr. Nancarrow or not but I do remember he had a special paddle made with holes in it to cut down on wind resistance when he paddled someone.

That was Nancarrow.

I think the 7th grade Gen Shop teacher was a Mr Felden.

**rex** · March-15-14, 08:42 PM

Thats a good fucking question. Thats what Detroit really needs. Targeted education. Teach the basics, reading, writing and basic math but try to filter students into a trade. Kids from the suburbs whose parents have a little $$$ can afford to go to college and figure out what they want to do. Detroit should have secondary trade education. From the age 14 on teach them how to work on cars so they can make 75K a year as a mechanic or teach them plumbing or how to paint, teach them how to use lathes and operate a hilo, stuff like that. Teach them how to work in a kitchen and be successful somewhere and make 35-40 K a year
A few years ago I took networking classes at oakland community college with a bunch of kids from Pontiac who were in highschool. These were presumably top of the class students. I dont know but when you have students who are destined to fail, who arent succeeding on an academic track they need to push them into an employability track

**dguy4evr** · March-16-14, 07:31 AM

The schools, if they do wise up and open them, need to run them with real life experiences. At Wilbur Wright they had a working garage for the seniors. This gave them real experience in the real world dealing with rusted bolts and nuts and problems you deal with in the field. These schools could also include a sort of start up apprenticeship in whatever field they sign up for, be it plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics, tool and die, or electrician. Maybe working as a helper in the field for school credits. Like the old co-op programs.

**313WX** · March-16-14, 10:33 AM

As another poster said, the reason there aren't many trade schools around any more these days is because the demand for them has changed. The days of graduating trade school and then walking straight into a job that pays a living wage are long gone.

People aren't going to pay good money out of their pockets, nor will the government spend the taxpayer's money, to pay for an education for jobs that either no longer exist or are in limited supply and pay poorly.