Detroit pension protesters offer own bankruptcy plan, vow to shut city down

[nain rouge]

The one thing about these pensions is that I can never remember a time when your average person with keen financial sense thought that the deals Detroit was cutting in the '80s and '90s with the unions were realistic. Hasn't it always been a train heading toward a cliff? I understand that people deserve to be paid for there work, but I never - EVER - would've bet a retirement on it.

When was there a time to be optimistic? The '90s? "Oh, Detroit only lost 80,000 people this decade. It must be stabilizing!" I can understand being optimistic about certain specific sectors within the city, but as a whole it's been going down since the '60s.

I've spent some time working in the book industry, and it always amazed me when workers were shocked that a store was cutting labor or closing. Couldn't you see the writing on the wall, the perpetually lagging sales and emerging competitors? People just want to put their heads down and imagine that some fairy godmother is gonna take care of them. Isn't that how Metro Detroit gets in all these messes, anyhow?

Folks, when you're screwed, you gotta recognize it and accept fate. I entered the book industry expecting it to be a short-term gig, just as I would've entered the DFD expecting I could get screwed out of pensions.

[Cliffy]

Gotta love the Republican Circle Jerk in all the pension threads. People in their 70's and 80's and 90's are losing 30% of their income which is not a lot to begin with and the attitude is "oh well". God, what a bunch of compassionate less lowlifes. Get a fucking heart and look at reality for people at this age. They will be eat dog food now.

[Cliffy]

An argument could be made that their pension management and 19th-century work rules did cause the city to shut down. Their too late to their own funeral.

Yes, Wesley. The 19th century work rules of the garbage man. Lets go after him now and this will solve all the world's financial problems. You people are just a bunch of industrialist boot lickers. Worship the elites and fuck your own peers just so you will feel better because your sorry ass job has no benefits. You are shameful Wesley.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Yes, Wesley. The 19th century work rules of the garbage man. Lets go after him now and this will solve all the world's financial problems. You people are just a bunch of industrialist boot lickers. Worship the elites and fuck your own peers just so you will feel better because your sorry ass job has no benefits. You are shameful Wesley.

+1 That's what I also took from his posts. Also blaming the Unions which are partly at fault, but not solely. Some of these people on here have no compassion for others, until it happens to them. The retirees shouldn't have to take a hit for bad decisions and mismanagement of others in control by greed. You think Detroit is poor now... wait until this shakes out.

[jt1]

Gotta love the Republican Circle Jerk in all the pension threads. People in their 70's and 80's and 90's are losing 30% of their income which is not a lot to begin with and the attitude is "oh well". God, what a bunch of compassionate less lowlifes. Get a fucking heart and look at reality for people at this age. They will be eat dog food now.

Those in the GRS qualify for SS so they are losing 34% of their pension, not 34% of their income. If they settle quickly, they will lose 26% of their pension. I am guessing that SS makes about matches their pension income so that would mean they will really lose about 13% of their income. It sucks but it is a very different reality than saying they will lose 34% of their income.

[Wesley Mouch]

+1 That's what I also took from his posts. Also blaming the Unions which are partly at fault, but not solely. Some of these people on here have no compassion for others, until it happens to them. The retirees shouldn't have to take a hit for bad decisions and mismanagement of others in control by greed. You think Detroit is poor now... wait until this shakes out.

The retirees are taking a hit for a wide variety of reasons. Mostly the fault of others. But not solely. I think its important that we realize that our actions have consequences. I do hope now some people pay better attention to what their union leaders and pension trustees are doing now.

[ABetterDetroit]

Yes it's sucks, it is awful, and is a human tragedy that NONE of these people deserve as individual human beings.

It doesn't change the fact that they will be screwed just like the 10s of millions of hard working people did in the recession the whole country just experienced recently and the citizens of Detroit are still in. When does their human misery end with better education, public safety, and a quality of life that the children of Detroit deserve as being part of the human race?

An argument could be made that the future of the 50,000+ kids under 5 years of age are more important than all these retirees. Crippling the city's ability to provide an environment that these children can build ther lives on has been failing for years when the employees and retirees at least have been getting paid up until ? It truly is a rock and a hard place, but I would take the young, they didn't know what they were up against when they arrived.

[cla1945]

Those in the GRS qualify for SS so they are losing 34% of their pension, not 34% of their income. If they settle quickly, they will lose 26% of their pension. I am guessing that SS makes about matches their pension income so that would mean they will really lose about 13% of their income. It sucks but it is a very different reality than saying they will lose 34% of their income.

If GRS employees retired before the age of 62 they did not receive SS. When they reached the age of 62 and could receive social security, their pensions were cut a substantial amount. They already took a cut, now another one. No one mentions that.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

If GRS employees retired before the age of 62 they did not receive SS. When they reached the age of 62 and could receive social security, their pensions were cut a substantial amount. They already took a cut, now another one. No one mentions that.

Agreed. People that retired early will take the biggest hit, except for the County employees that Ficano let out the barn early. They got sweet deals making as much in retirement as if they were still working.

[Wesley Mouch]

The one thing about these pensions is that I can never remember a time when your average person with keen financial sense thought that the deals Detroit was cutting in the '80s and '90s with the unions were realistic. Hasn't it always been a train heading toward a cliff? I understand that people deserve to be paid for there work, but I never - EVER - would've bet a retirement on it.

When was there a time to be optimistic? The '90s? "Oh, Detroit only lost 80,000 people this decade. It must be stabilizing!" I can understand being optimistic about certain specific sectors within the city, but as a whole it's been going down since the '60s.

I've spent some time working in the book industry, and it always amazed me when workers were shocked that a store was cutting labor or closing. Couldn't you see the writing on the wall, the perpetually lagging sales and emerging competitors? People just want to put their heads down and imagine that some fairy godmother is gonna take care of them. Isn't that how Metro Detroit gets in all these messes, anyhow?

Folks, when you're screwed, you gotta recognize it and accept fate. I entered the book industry expecting it to be a short-term gig, just as I would've entered the DFD expecting I could get screwed out of pensions.

My thoughts, exactly. You get on a train speeding to hell -- don't be surprised when you arrive.

[nain rouge]

Gotta love the Republican Circle Jerk in all the pension threads. People in their 70's and 80's and 90's are losing 30% of their income which is not a lot to begin with and the attitude is "oh well". God, what a bunch of compassionate less lowlifes. Get a fucking heart and look at reality for people at this age. They will be eat dog food now.

Here's the thing. Far as I can tell, the majority of the people in the previous generations have NEVER care ONE LICK about my generation. They allowed and/or indulged in all sorts of corruption, assuming the bill would never be due in their lifetime. Well, guess what? It is, and I'm not going to shoulder the whole load for them so they can get away scotfree with the squandering of this country's resources. They can suffer along with us.

[Oldertimer]

Why would anyone want to work for the city? You cannot count on a paycheck in the present and if promised a pension you can't count on receiving the pension that they are promising. Seems like a lose-lose situation. You do more for less and it has reached the point that now you everything for nothing.

[compn]

Gotta love the Republican Circle Jerk in all the pension threads. People in their 70's and 80's and 90's are losing 30% of their income which is not a lot to begin with and the attitude is "oh well". God, what a bunch of compassionate less lowlifes. Get a fucking heart and look at reality for people at this age. They will be eat dog food now.

maybe the majority of the 70s-90s seniors shouldnt have voted anti-union [[aka republican) and destroyed the boomer generation's pensions and destroyed any chance of pensions for any jobs now or in the future? so they got their wish. no more unions. no more pensions. what? you mean that includes their pension? oh, now the seniors care? oh! now the republican snyder+legislature they voted in goes against the michigan constitution and will destroy detroits pensions? remember when pensions were a thing? because those days are over.

you seniors made your bed with the republicans. now you can eat your dog food in it.

i am truely sorry to anyone who has lost a pension, its happened to a lot of my family.

[compn]

if promised a pension you can't count on receiving the pension that they are promising.

very few jobs even offer a pension. i think people will take what they can get.

[Gistok]

[/COLOR]
Here's the thing. Far as I can tell, the majority of the people in the previous generations have NEVER care ONE LICK about my generation. They allowed and/or indulged in all sorts of corruption, assuming the bill would never be due in their lifetime. Well, guess what? It is, and I'm not going to shoulder the whole load for them so they can get away scotfree with the squandering of this country's resources. They can suffer along with us.

Good lord... would you like some cheese with that whine??

Your lament is the same one that's been going on for generation after generation... don't make it somehow sound like you've somehow been excluded in everything... and that nobody loves you.... After all there's no magic handing over of the baton among generations... so stop your snivelling...

[jt1]

Good lord... would you like some cheese with that whine??

Your lament is the same one that's been going on for generation after generation... don't make it somehow sound like you've somehow been excluded in everything... and that nobody loves you.... After all there's no magic handing over of the baton among generations... so stop your snivelling...

Of course you gloss over the fact that gen X will be the first generation whose quality of life will be below that of their parents. So, in some respect, younger people are excluded from the generation to generation improvement that all previous generations were afforded.

[Honky Tonk]

maybe the majority of the 70s-90s seniors shouldnt have voted anti-union [[aka republican) and destroyed the boomer generation's pensions and destroyed any chance of pensions for any jobs now or in the future? so they got their wish. no more unions. no more pensions. what? you mean that includes their pension? oh, now the seniors care? oh! now the republican snyder+legislature they voted in goes against the michigan constitution and will destroy detroits pensions? remember when pensions were a thing? because those days are over.

you seniors made your bed with the republicans. now you can eat your dog food in it.

i am truely sorry to anyone who has lost a pension, its happened to a lot of my family.

compn, I don't know if you sat on a tack, or your wife took off with your best friend's dog, but you've been a real poop all day. Talk about facing reality. The pension fund, especially for the General City Employees, was destroyed years ago, and NOT by Snyder. He was just the bearer of the REAL-bad news. Less then a year ago, there was a story about a couple of Detroit pension managers, that spent $25K a piece, to go to a Hawiian conference to "gather information" on how to "better manage Detroit's Pension Fund". This was days before the fudge hit the fan that the Fund was broke. Kilpatrick jacked the numbers around to make it look like there was more money then there actually was. The Fund invested, [[unwisely) in the Book Cadillac restoration. Has anyone asked where the repayment is? Yet, in your eyes, Snyder & Orr are the bad guys here. Neither of those two guys are able to walk on water, nor are they as Saintly as Mike Ilitch, but lay the blame squarley on the people who deserve it, will you?

[Gistok]

Of course you gloss over the fact that gen X will be the first generation whose quality of life will be below that of their parents. So, in some respect, younger people are excluded from the generation to generation improvement that all previous generations were afforded.

Ah yes... but the baby boomers are the first retirees to experience the cut in retiree benefits...

[jt1]

Ah yes... but the baby boomers are the first retirees to experience the cut in retiree benefits...

True, however I would bet [[but don't have the data to back it up) that even with these cuts, their quality of life is still better than their parents generation.

It stinks for retirees that will take a hit but complaining to younger generations that are seeing reductions in income, no pensions, a likely underfunded SS [[or benefits not hitting until70+), drastic increases in education, healthcare, etc is going to fall on deaf ears.

Baby boomers have saddled future generations with debt, spent 30 years spending like drunken sailors while telling younger generations to deal with it. Sorry if there is not a lot of sympathy at a generational level.

At a personal level I sympathize with the retirees that are impacted. At a generational level I think that the baby boomers are now complaining about a bill that is finally due.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

True, however I would bet [[but don't have the data to back it up) that even with these cuts, their quality of life is still better than their parents generation.

It stinks for retirees that will take a hit but complaining to younger generations that are seeing reductions in income, no pensions, a likely underfunded SS [[or benefits not hitting until70+), drastic increases in education, healthcare, etc is going to fall on deaf ears.

Baby boomers have saddled future generations with debt, spent 30 years spending like drunken sailors while telling younger generations to deal with it. Sorry if there is not a lot of sympathy at a generational level.

At a personal level I sympathize with the retirees that are impacted. At a generational level I think that the baby boomers are now complaining about a bill that is finally due.

Great post jt1. I know exactly what your saying first hand as I have 2 college educated Generation X kids who are struggling to find their place in this world.
The outlook looks kinda scary for their's and future generations.

[BankruptcyGuy]

The problem is not limited to public pension funds. Here is an interesting article about multi-employer pension funds, and how poorly they are faring.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-failures.html

[mwilbert]

True, however I would bet [[but don't have the data to back it up) that even with these cuts, their quality of life is still better than their parents generation.

It stinks for retirees that will take a hit but complaining to younger generations that are seeing reductions in income, no pensions, a likely underfunded SS [[or benefits not hitting until70+), drastic increases in education, healthcare, etc is going to fall on deaf ears.

Baby boomers have saddled future generations with debt, spent 30 years spending like drunken sailors while telling younger generations to deal with it. Sorry if there is not a lot of sympathy at a generational level.

At a personal level I sympathize with the retirees that are impacted. At a generational level I think that the baby boomers are now complaining about a bill that is finally due.

Quality of life is kind of an elusive thing to measure. I would say that today's young people have less economic security than their parents generally did at the same age, and that is a big negative. But there are also a lot of ways in which life for young people have today is a rather big improvement on that which their parents experienced.

Examples: Food. Medical care, Entertainment [[television especially, but certainly also video games). Shopping. Crime. Homophobia. Cigarette smoke.

Anyway, I don't think most young people who gave it a few minutes reflection would rather be living 30 or 40 years ago, so I'm not convinced quality of life has really diminished so much as changed.

[3WC]

BankruptcyGuy states that the Plan violates "state law" [[I presume with respect to pensions) and I presume he's referring to the alleged State Constitutional protection of municipal pensions.

I don't agree. The alleged Constitutional protection does not exist, as Judge Rhodes ruled in his Opinion permitting the City to seek bankruptcy protection. He's right and the appeal will be denied.

The Teachers Union was the entity that fought for and caused the Constitution to be amended to provide that municipal pensions have the status of CONTRACTS and that no party to such contracts could impair them. That was the kiss of death as contracts under federal bankruptcy law may be impaired and rejected, and are routinely.

Several states have the same basic language in their constitutions, almost word for word, as Michigan's.

One state's leaders actually read what other states were doing and realized that in bankruptcy, those contracts could be impaired and will. So, Louisiana's drafters added provision to the effect that if impairment occurred, the State would assume responsibility for the pensions.

It appears that if those constitutional provisions were to provide constitutional protection to pensions, Louisiana's lawmakers were a lot smarter than Michigan's by realizing pensions would not be protected in bankruptcy and therefore provided another remedy.

[jt1]

Quality of life is kind of an elusive thing to measure. I would say that today's young people have less economic security than their parents generally did at the same age, and that is a big negative. But there are also a lot of ways in which life for young people have today is a rather big improvement on that which their parents experienced.

Examples: Food. Medical care, Entertainment [[television especially, but certainly also video games). Shopping. Crime. Homophobia. Cigarette smoke.

Anyway, I don't think most young people who gave it a few minutes reflection would rather be living 30 or 40 years ago, so I'm not convinced quality of life has really diminished so much as changed.

That is a fair point differntiating between QOL and financial/economic security. But as studies show, lack of financial stability impacts every aspect of life: relationships, stability in the household, stress levels, etc but I do agree there is a

[Ray1936]

very few jobs even offer a pension. i think people will take what they can get.

Very few jobs don't deduct and make an equal contribution to social security. But police and fire do just that, offering the pension in exchange. Cheaper for the city in the long run, making more available for mayors and councilpeople to steal. As they indeed have.