3 different Detroit homeowners defend themselves against intruders...

**EASTSIDE CAT 67-83** · March-01-14, 06:56 AM

What a wonderful and heart warming story, bang bang....you just got your last victim. I can't wait to see the rap sheets on the Perps and see how long they have been out on parole or what their last violent crime was.

**Dan Wesson** · March-01-14, 07:46 AM

http://www.handgun-shotguntraining.c...20doctrine.pdf

**sumas** · March-01-14, 08:16 AM

I honor people who protect their homes. I am not big on guns but no one has any right to do home invasion.

**401don** · March-01-14, 08:45 AM

If 3 are shot in a week, just how many home invasions are occurring in the city each week? And it's not even warming up outside yet.

**compn** · March-01-14, 10:55 AM

justified or justifiable homicide in detroit.

25 justifiable homicides in Detroit 2012.
33 justifiable homicides in 2011
19 justifiable homicides in 2010.

“The number of justifiable homicides isn’t readily available at this time,” Detroit Police 3rd Deputy Chief Rodney Johnson said Tuesday
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/301010027

**Wesley Mouch** · March-01-14, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by sumas

I honor people who protect their homes. I am not big on guns but no one has any right to do home invasion.

Simple rule. Someone's home is their castle. Enter without permission. You take responsibility for the results.

Simple rules like this reduce crime. Will a few innocent intruders be harmed. Yes. Will fewer innocent homeowners be harmed. Yes.

**softailrider** · March-02-14, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Simple rule. Someone's home is their castle. Enter without permission. You take responsibility for the results.

Simple rules like this reduce crime. Will a few innocent intruders be harmed. Yes. Will fewer innocent homeowners be harmed. Yes.

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

**old guy** · March-02-14, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

I have to agree with you about that, but I just can't imagine if it happened what the time frame for reaction would need to be. Hard to reason what's happening and how to react. Not sure how I'd deal with it. Scary situation.

**Zacha341** · March-02-14, 05:52 AM

I think that if you are a woman alone or with children and some creep is climbing thru your bedroom or intercepting you in a driveway there's a chance they may want more than your material wealth ala flat screens and jewelry. I recall an incident where an elder man was beaten to death and shot in front of his stricken wife.

Course, one could ask the invaders full intentions and motive, or instead take evasive action to stop the invasion.

**Vic01** · March-02-14, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

I disagree, the fact that you've broken into my home implies enough of a "threat of bodily injury"... and gives me every right to open fire.

**Meddle** · March-02-14, 06:42 AM

No doubt as to justification in this case.

As we've seen in several past cases over the last couple of years, they don't even have to be inside the house.

**Honky Tonk** · March-02-14, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

Could be he kicked the door down or broke out a window because he wanted a drink of water or to use the bathroom.

**Dan Wesson** · March-02-14, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

This post got me thinking along the lines of PC Sensitivity Training.

If you take the theme that harassment, in terms of how the recipient perceives it, has all the credence and the perpetrator of said harassment hasn't a leg to stand on when accused...

Self defense laws of the lethal variety in Michigan no longer requires victims to guess at the criminal intentions of the invader of one's space or run and hide, all it requires is the perceived threat of bodily harm, rape and death of either the victim or another person to act.

There are exceptions to these laws.

So maybe it's time for thugs to undergo sensitivity training in their workplace.

GUSHI · March-02-14, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Could be he kicked the door down or broke out a window because he wanted a drink of water or to use the bathroom.

There is enought snow outside, just don't eat to drink the yellow variety,

**NickCharles** · March-02-14, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by GUSHI

There is enought snow outside, just don't eat to drink the yellow variety,

I assume that you're the life of every party, regaling folks with fart jokes and finding amusing ways of force-fitting "butt" into your witty quips.

**softailrider** · March-02-14, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

This post got me thinking along the lines of PC Sensitivity Training.

If you take the theme that harassment, in terms of how the recipient perceives it, has all the credence and the perpetrator of said harassment hasn't a leg to stand on when accused...

Self defense laws of the lethal variety in Michigan no longer requires victims to guess at the criminal intentions of the invader of one's space or run and hide, all it requires is the perceived threat of bodily harm, rape and death of either the victim or another person to act.

There are exceptions to these laws.

So maybe it's time for thugs to undergo sensitivity training in their workplace.

Silly me - I wasn't aware of any changes to the self defense laws in Michigan. I was always under the impression that when confronting a person who has forced entry into your house you could not pull the trigger unless there was a threat of harm. For instance , just walking out the door with your TV set wasn't justification for shooting that person in the back after you told him / her to stop.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-02-14, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

Let's go with your situation. You are home alone with your 3 year old. You hear sounds. You meet an intruder in your living room. What is your next action?

Tell us how you know whether they broken in because they needed to steal some oatmeal for their starving child -- or just felt like dismembering yours?

**Dan Wesson** · March-02-14, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Silly me - I wasn't aware of any changes to the self defense laws in Michigan. I was always under the impression that when confronting a person who has forced entry into your house you could not pull the trigger unless there was a threat of harm. For instance , just walking out the door with your TV set wasn't justification for shooting that person in the back after you told him / her to stop.

I guess you would have to be there, at that moment in time and space. That scenario could have lot's of tangents concerning the outcome.

A lone perp, a dope dependant relative, more than one perp in the house, your dead dog lying there, children, iffin you believe in the old testament more than the new.

Hell, maybe you're just a mean old man or you could just be plain old scared silly.

Easy to armchair quarterback.

But I think just maybe the sensitivity training you have received concerning that perp walking out your door should be reciprocated and he should apologize to you after you tell him to stop as you wag your finger at him..

WWJD or WWDPDD?

**Dan Wesson** · March-02-14, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Not too sure about that first paragraph. I don't think just finding an intruder in your house is justification for pulling the trigger. I'm pretty sure there has to be the threat of bodily injury.

Introduced by Senator Cropsey
ENROLLED SENATE BILL No. 1046
AN ACT to create a rebuttable presumption regarding the use of self-defense or the defense of others.
The People of the State of Michigan enact:
Sec. 1. [[1) Except as provided in subsection [[2), it is a rebuttable presumption in a civil or criminal case that an individual who uses deadly force or force other than deadly force under section 2 of the self-defense act has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur if both of the following apply:
[[a) The individual against whom deadly force or force other than deadly force is used is in the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business premises or committing home invasion or has broken and entered a dwelling or business premises or committed home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business premises, or is unlawfully attempting to remove another individual from a dwelling, business premises, or occupied vehicle against his or her will.

Cheif Craig is standing on solid legal ground when he recommends using self defense.

Now, whether it's morally correct to use firearms or legally, it's up to the individual to make the call and live with the consequences that the perp has thrust upon them.

**softailrider** · March-02-14, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Let's go with your situation. You are home alone with your 3 year old. You hear sounds. You meet an intruder in your living room. What is your next action?

Tell us how you know whether they broken in because they needed to steal some oatmeal for their starving child -- or just felt like dismembering yours?

You're preaching to the choir here, somebody breaks into my house they might be in for a big surprise if I'm around. I got absolutely nothing against firearms, I have quite a few and practice at the range every once in a while. You probably won't have time to think it over before you pull the trigger in that type of scenario you presented. When the police arrive, they're going to ask if the person you shot had a weapon. I think that's a fair question.

**Wesley Mouch** · March-02-14, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

I guess you would have to be there, at that moment in time and space. That scenario could have lot's of tangents concerning the outcome.

A lone perp, a dope dependant relative, more than one perp in the house, your dead dog lying there, children, iffin you believe in the old testament more than the new.

Hell, maybe you're just a mean old man or you could just be plain old scared silly.

Easy to armchair quarterback.

But I think just maybe the sensitivity training you have received concerning that perp walking out your door should be reciprocated and he should apologize to you after you tell him to stop as you wag your finger at him..

WWJD or WWDPDD?

It is easy to armchair quarterback. The important idea is that in a civilized society we start the discussion with the assumption that the homeowner is innocent, unless proven guilty of a crime. The shooting of an intruder is 'presumed' to be a reasonable reaction to a home invasion. Perps can safely make the assumption that a homeowner can shoot them.

This is simply civilized. We scrutinize the story of the invader. And we allow homeowners to be king of their castle.

Doing the reverse is anarchy. And creates a city where criminals know they can invade a house, and very likely get away with it. Let me think for a moment about a city where criminals are presumed to be innocent. Ah, that was Detroit until recently.

Welcome change. Detroit's becoming civilized -- freed from absurd legal stretches that allow criminals more credibility than homeowners.

**Dan Wesson** · March-02-14, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

You're preaching to the choir here, somebody breaks into my house they might be in for a big surprise if I'm around. I got absolutely nothing against firearms, I have quite a few and practice at the range every once in a while. You probably won't have time to think it over before you pull the trigger in that type of scenario you presented. When the police arrive, they're going to ask if the person you shot had a weapon. I think that's a fair question.

You don't need a see "weapon" to believe that imminent death of, sexual assault of, or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another individual will occur .

Because all that can occur without a "weapon". All a perp needs is the will, intent and ability.

**Detroitrobert** · March-03-14, 04:29 PM

The intruder doesn't need to be holding a gun for you to use deadly force in your home. Is there a fireplace poker in the same room? Is there a baseball bat near the door? Anything near the intruder that can reasonably construed as a weapon will make a case for the justifiable use of deadly force. Bottom line for me...if someone breaks into my house, I feel in danger for my life.