Sunday Assembly Detroit [[aka Atheist Church)

[NickCharles]

...However, I don't understand how intelligent people with some degree of formal education don't believe in a "first cause, uncaused," one of the several proofs of the existence of "God" by St. Thomas Aquinas. Intellectually, I believe that thinking people can't ignore that the physical universe was not spontaneously created out of nothing. Even the "Big Bang" theory doesn't claim that occurred...

...The issue here is one of semantics.

There is far more in play, here, than semantics.

Some "intelligent people with some degree of formal education" are not inclined toward being bold-- I would say "arrogant"-- enough to reach any particular conclusion about the origin of a cosmos about which we, as humans, understand so little.

With that willingness to accept their own smallness & relative ignorance, some who have done a great deal of thinking about the matter have realized that they do not feel themselves to be in any position to believe, or disbelieve, any theory. Without ignoring anything, they do not seek "proofs," they do not haughtily make decisions about "causes," and they are content to accept, as a fascinating mystery, the origins of a vast universe of which they are such a tiny part and about which they, in truth, know almost nothing.

Nothing at all semantic about that.

[1953]

Its kind of silly to believe in some human-like deity creating the universe, no? People still believe in that? Isn't it 2014?

1953

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Its kind of silly to believe in some human-like deity creating the universe, no? People still believe in that? Isn't it 2014?

1953

I don't understand the need some people have to challenge other people's religious thinking. It's a worthwhile exercise to examine your beliefs; it's futile and intolerant to attempt to analyze some else's.

[rb336]

However, I don't understand how intelligent people with some degree of formal education don't believe in a "first cause, uncaused," one of the several proofs of the existence of "God" by St. Thomas Aquinas. Intellectually, I believe that thinking people can't ignore that the physical universe was not spontaneously created out of nothing. Even the "Big Bang" theory doesn't claim that occurred.

Why must there be a "first cause?" there is nothing self-evident about any of St. Thomas' "proofs," and a lot of faulty reasoning derived from limitations of observation and pre-disposition for a certain position. They are arguments from faith, nothing more. Is it more rational to assume something as complex as a deity could emerge from nothing or for something as simple as a hydrogen atom? How long did "god" exist prior to the creation? Or was "god" merely the bi-product of the spontaneous creation of space-time? Maybe "god" is really a verb describing the the creative energy of the universe by people who had not the tools to understand chaos and emergent properties theories.

as too what existed before the "big bang," that is, for now, unknowable. Maybe the answer will be found in the cosmic background radiation, some remnant of what was destroyed

[NickCharles]

Its kind of silly to believe in some human-like deity creating the universe, no? People still believe in that? Isn't it 2014?

1953

I do not agree, nor do I disagree, with your statement in, or out of, its disguise as a question.

[3WC]

1953; Who said anything about a human-like deity creating the universe? Not I. You seem to have a problem with separating an intellectual approach from a religious one.

Mikey: my belief in the intellectual concept of a first cause uncaused is not a religious one. That's my point.

rb: Of course the concept of a first cause uncaused is self evident unless you believe that the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing. Big Bangers believe that all matter in the universe was compacted into the size of a pea, and at that point within milliseconds or less the universe was "created." Where did the "pea" come from?

Nick Charles: It's clear to me you are not a scientist. To believe as you do that the universe is far beyond the comprehension of we mortals ignores the fact that we do know quite a bit about the universe. Of course there's a lot more to learn and we keep trying to learn it.

Albert Einstein was the farthest thing from a religious person and may have been an Athiest. However, he was firm believer in God [[for lack of a better word. He would understand the point I'm trying to make I think.)

[Gistok]

Its kind of silly to believe in some human-like deity creating the universe, no? People still believe in that? Isn't it 2014?

1953

The biggest mystery to me in 2014 is that there are still people out there who think being contemptuous is a virtue??

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The biggest mystery to me in 2014 is that there are still people out there who think being contemptuous is a virtue??

Well said.

[3WC]

Clarification: Einstein was an agnostic, and specifically denied being an atheist.

However, he believed an a pantheistic God [[as did Spinoza) but not a personal God. Look 'em up.

[rb336]

Clarification: Einstein was an agnostic, and specifically denied being an atheist.

However, he believed an a pantheistic God [[as did Spinoza) but not a personal God. Look 'em up.

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness"

"the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstition."

Both from Einstein, letter to Erik Gudkind.

"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."

Einstein, letter to Guy H. Raner, July 2, 1945.

Einstein was an atheist, did NOT believe in pantheism

Spinoza was called a pantheist, atheist, etc. "Neither intellect nor will pertain to the nature of God."

God, to Spinoza, was not an intelligence nor an actor. It was, simply, nature and anything that came from God "flowed from laws." Those who stuck the pantheist label on him were comparing him to the heathens.

[1953]

Sorry guys, but believing in some supreme being is just absurd to me.

[Gistok]

Sorry guys, but believing in some supreme being is just absurd to me.

Hey 1953.... you've alway been level headed on this forum. This version sounds more palatable to those of us that disagree with you...

Also... some of us would like to avoid the possibility of this...

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/179581103861244880/

[Zacha341]

“If God is dead, somebody is going to have to take his place. It will be megalomania or erotomania, the drive for power or the drive for pleasure, the clenched fist or the phallus, Hitler or Hugh Hefner.”

― Malcolm Muggeridge

[NickCharles]

Nick Charles: It's clear to me you are not a scientist. To believe as you do that the universe is far beyond the comprehension of we mortals ignores the fact that we do know quite a bit about the universe. Of course there's a lot more to learn and we keep trying to learn it.

Please explain how you can state-- as a "fact," no less-- that we "know quite a bit about the universe."
How is that measured? Do we know so much about it that we also know what percentage "quite a bit" is? You say that there's "a lot more to learn;" are you certain of that? Maybe you know 98.9% of it. Maybe you know only 1.1% of it.
And maybe none of us understands even .001% of it, and the only true difference is that some of us admit it.

[MizMotown]

All the esoteric teachings of Christianity teach that you must undergo an awakening, a transformation of your mind. You must have an initiation and release your thoughts of judgment. Judge not that ye be not judged. Matthew 7:1

You must go through your transformation to experience the frequency of the light that is where you are united with God. This is a physical resurrection.
Perhaps it appears that you have to give something up to get there.

Be honest. Aren’t you planning your own death here? Isn’t that why you made this world?

Everything around you shines forever. You are totally YOU, a complete whole idea in the mind of God. There is no death, no suffering, no loss. This is your reality. All else is madness.

But you must let go of this mad world of death to have it. You must want freedom above all else. Even though the all else is just pain, suffering and death.

...row, row, row your boat gently down the stream... merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily.. life is but a dream.

[MizMotown]

Like Albert Einstein I don't believe in a Creator that involves himself in human drama and soap opera's. Pantheism is the belief that the universe [[or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity,^[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God

I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God.

- Albert Einstein, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman

- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2

[rex]

thread quickly devolves into athiest agnostic people laughing at religious people for having silly beliefs and religious people getting upset because atheist agnostic people don't share their silly beliefs

[3WC]

MizMotown: Note in the quote that Einstein refers to an "infinitely superior spirit." One could reasonably conclude that's a reference to "God" as most people experience the concept.

NickCharles: I say we now quite a bit about the universe because for a century or more thousands of scientists have studied it, sent billion dollar telescopes into space to photograph it, and have written countess books and arrived at many sophisticated theories of its creation, expansion and ultimate [[theoretical) collapse.

You are aware of course that you ask questions that cannot be answered
because there is much about the topic that is not known.

I say that we know 72.876% of all there is to know about the subject. [[Keep in mind that 86.733% of all statistics are made up on the spot by people trying to convince someone of the validity of their argument.) You'll appreciate that, based on the questions you posed.

[noise]

I don't understand the need some people have to challenge other people's religious thinking. It's a worthwhile exercise to examine your beliefs; it's futile and intolerant to attempt to analyze some else's.

What you don't understand could fill the world's libraries.

It is certainly not futile or intolerant to challenge a silly ideology that oppresses people throughout the world.

[noise]

The biggest mystery to me in 2014 is that there are still people out there who think being contemptuous is a virtue??

That's not much of a mystery when you look at the numbers of believers and their influence on the world. That influence often being contemptuous to non-believers or believers of a different ilk.

[MizMotown]

I believe Jesus Christ died on the Cross to save me from going to Hell

I believe if the SMART August 2014 Property Tax Renewal fails in all three counties of Oakland, Wayne and Macomb Counties that it will improve mass transit for everyone.

I believe in One God and that we were all created equally and we should all have rights.

Anyone want to debate me?

Anyone want to challenge me?

from A Course In Miracles [[Jesus words...)

If the Apostles had not felt guilty, they never could have quoted me as saying, "I come not to bring peace but a sword." This is clearly the opposite of everything I taught. Nor could they have described my reactions to Judas as they did, if they had really understood me. I could not have said, "Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?" unless I believed in betrayal. The whole message of the crucifixion was simply that I did not. The "punishment" I was said to have called forth upon Judas was a similar mistake. Judas was my brother and a Son of God, as much a part of the Sonship as myself. Was it likely that I would condemn him when I was ready to demonstrate that condemnation is impossible?
¹⁶ As you read the teachings of the Apostles, remember that I told them myself that there was much they would understand later, because they were not wholly ready to follow me at the time. I do not want you to allow any fear to enter into the thought system toward which I am guiding you. I do not call for martyrs but for teachers. No one is punished for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners. Any concept of punishment involves the projection of blame, and reinforces the idea that blame is justified. The result is a lesson in blame, for all behaviour teaches the beliefs that motivate it. The crucifixion was the result of clearly opposed thought systems; the perfect symbol of the "conflict" between the ego and the Son of God. This conflict seems just as real now, and its lessons must be learned now as well as then.

[1953]

Thanks, Gistok for recognizing I'm not generally a nut job I like you, too.

[3WC]

Noise: You have chosen an appropriate screen name.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

What you don't understand could fill the world's libraries.

It is certainly not futile or intolerant to challenge a silly ideology that oppresses people throughout the world.

Thank God you are here to protect us from religion.

[noise]

Noise: You have chosen an appropriate screen name.

How witty. And clearly addresses the argument. And really distracts us from the nonsense you've been posting.