Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[ABetterDetroit]

What is needed is some kind of self-sealing paving material. Does such a paving material even exist? Google doesn't find anything recent.

Superpave asphalt

They exist but require more capital and inspection during the construction process, both of those are something Lansing refuses to do adequately.

[DetroitPlanner]

Thanks RO_Res, this is more along your line. I am just the guy who finds the money and gets it done. I do know the more you spend on preventive maintenance the better.

Here is an analogy I often use. Its how you keep your car lasting 15 years instead of 5. The same concept applies to roads. It is much more cost effective in the long run to maintain a good car. The issue we have now is we have so little money and can't afford all new cars. We have many bad cars to start with that we are looking at putting transmissions into cars that have little life left on them and really should be replaced. How do we strike a balance between buying a new car and still maintaining the old one?

Our roads are a lot like that. A lot of tough decisions need to be made and everyone wants a new car because their old one is worn out. We don't have enough money in the checking account to replace all of the cars.

[TKshreve]

RO Resident + Detroit Planner:

Do the powers that be and State take into consideration traffic congestion caused by construction when considering the scope/cost/duration of a road project?

[Islandman]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

[ABetterDetroit]

Here is an analogy I often use. Its how you keep your car lasting 15 years instead of 5. The same concept applies to roads. It is much more cost effective in the long run to maintain a good car. The issue we have now is we have so little money and can't afford all new cars. We have many bad cars to start with that we are looking at putting transmissions into cars that have little life left on them and really should be replaced. How do we strike a balance between buying a new car and still maintaining the old one?

Our roads are a lot like that. A lot of tough decisions need to be made and everyone wants a new car because their old one is worn out. We don't have enough money in the checking account to replace all of the cars.

I love the analogy! Wouldn't it be nice if Gov. approached problems with the same common sense most of us use in our everyday lives? My experience is they do not. Not even close.

[rb336]

Another +1 for DetroitPlanner's analogy. Possibly the best one I've read on here

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I love the analogy! Wouldn't it be nice if Gov. approached problems with the same common sense most of us use in our everyday lives? My experience is they do not. Not even close.

Wishful thinking if you expect anything sensible from the Gov.

[DetroitPlanner]

Another +1 for DetroitPlanner's analogy. Possibly the best one I've read on here

What? I am not getting piled on like the Hopcat thread? LOL

[DetroitPlanner]

RO Resident + Detroit Planner:

Do the powers that be and State take into consideration traffic congestion caused by construction when considering the scope/cost/duration of a road project?

Yes extensive public meetings and input went into the closure of I-96 in Livonia. If it is closed down completely, they can get the job done in 5 months. If it is left partially open to traffic it will take 2 years and will be congested anyway.

MDOT began seeking public input on closing down roads for about 15 years now. Roads where this was used on included I-75 downtown, with M-39 it was found that the public was okay with it closed down on the weekends so 90 percent of that project was done then. When I-96 from downtown to telegraph was reconstructed, it was a mixture of closures and openings. The Lodge was closed down completely when it was rebuilt.

It is a pain at first, but eventually traffic finds an equilibrium and once that happens things are good. One issue that needs to be planned for carefully is to make sure that alternative routes are not under construction at the same time the freeway is closed or it gets all buggered up.

[DetroitPlanner]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

Very early 90's Europave was used on a segment of I75 roughly from Mack to roughly where I-375 starts. This has held up fairly well over the last 20+ years. This project was a Demonstration [[aka Pork project) which paid 90 percent of the construction cost. Today the best you can do is normally the feds paying about 80 percent. The idea here was to see how it would hold up in an area with extreme temperature swings.

This was successful, but it was prohibitively expensive to construct. Europeans pay roughly 5 times the gasoline tax that folks in the States do. But it buys them good roads and great buses/trains.

If you're okay with $6-$7 gasoline, contact your elected officials. They may have you committed!

[RO_Resident]

I remember years back there was some sort of study on I-75 where they used the building techniques used in Germany for the autobahn. I think it was a mile and was supposed to last longer than our "fixes". Does this ring any bells? I think it was in the 90s.

The European-spec pavement is northbound I-75 from roughly Warren to Piquette.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...8_309964_7.pdf

[DetroitPlanner]

The European-spec pavement is northbound I-75 from roughly Warren to Piquette.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...8_309964_7.pdf

No $h!t!?!? I could have sworn it was S of there!

[ABetterDetroit]

What? I am not getting piled on like the Hopcat thread? LOL

No worries, I was kicking you on HopCat thread, don't want ya messing with good old douch baggery fun. So I followed you over here. Easy under the broken street lights, ducking in the holes in the roads, The point was if government doesn't use common sense like you did in your analogy then WTF? Nothing sensible that's for sure-

[Kevgoblue]

Yes extensive public meetings and input went into the closure of I-96 in Livonia. If it is closed down completely, they can get the job done in 5 months. If it is left partially open to traffic it will take 2 years and will be congested anyway.

That can't be the case. Years back when undertaking a major reconstruction project crews used to be out working round the clock. Now it seems as if they just work 9-5, M-F. I want to say I recall hearing the explanation being a desire to reduce overtime, thus cost on the project.

If they were really concerned about minimizing the impact on local business and citizens they would take 2 of the crews that were simulaneously working on Southfield, the Lodge and I-75 [[they usally choose roadways that run in the same direction) and have them work on only 1 project at a time. 3 shift operation. 24/7. That would get the guys back on a 8 hour day and minimizes the OT cost, while cutting the project time from 6 months to 2. When was the last time you've seen some major reconstruction done that didn't have the highway shut down the entire summer?

[DetroitPlanner]

No worries, I was kicking you on HopCat thread, don't want ya messing with good old douch baggery fun. So I followed you over here. Easy under the broken street lights, ducking in the holes in the roads, The point was if government doesn't use common sense like you did in your analogy then WTF? Nothing sensible that's for sure-

I got thick skin. I am a planner in Detroit for Petes sake!

[rb336]

That can't be the case. Years back when undertaking a major reconstruction project crews used to be out working round the clock. Now it seems as if they just work 9-5, M-F. I want to say I recall hearing the explanation being a desire to reduce overtime, thus cost on the project.

The cost of time-and-a-half pay and double-time results in around a 33% price increase. Further, fatal accidents were far more common with night crews than daytime

[Cliffy]

I just wished the governor and the legislature grew a backbone and just charge us .25 a gallon extra. The roads are beyond bad. I'm driving around and their are craters where a few bowling balls could fall in. I don't understand who would be against paying .25 gallon extra to fix our roads when its killing our cars and is becoming a safety hazard.

Greenfield between 8 and 9 mile should be shut down. Shame on the county for keeping it open.

[RO_Resident]

The Road Commission for Oakland County is going to reconstruct the southbound side of Greenfield this spring.
http://www.rcocweb.org/Lists/PressRe...default%2Easpx

I imagine they do not want to close down that section because of the proximity to Providence Hospital, 8 Mile, and the Lodge.

[EL Jimbo]

What MDOT is trying to do is to extend the time when the only economical fix is rehabilitation or reconstruction. Both of those fixes cost on the order of $500k to $1,500k [[or more) per lane mile of road to fix. In asset management-speak, the time to where the only economical fix is and expensive fix is the remaining service life.

As mentioned above water is enemy of good roads. You want to maintain good drainage and keep the waterproof surface intact.

Early on in the road's life, you want to seal any crack. If you let water infiltrate the surface into the base, you reduce the life of the pavement. So, crack sealing will increase the remaining service life for a couple, maybe few years.

Next, as the road ages shows signs of wear, but the base is relatively intact, an economical fix is a thin asphalt overlay. Those are the overlays that seem to last on the order of 5 or so years. Since the fixes are relatively cheap, they actually 'pay' for themselves over the course of the 5 years.

So, let's say a road has a design life of 25 years. The remaining service life is 25 years.

If you do a crack seal in years 2 and 4, you may add 4 years to the life of the pavement.

In years 15 and 20 you do some overlays. Each of the overlays adds 5 years to the remaining service life.

So, you may have spent an additional $100k per lane mile over the initial life of the pavement. However, you gained an additional 14 years of service life of the road. You have pushed the more expensive fixes to, say, year 39 or 40.

That's why it makes economic sense to do fixes that [[on first blush) don't seem to last very long. But, in the big picture, are actually saving you a lot of money in the long run.

Great summation of the the life cycle of bituminous pavement. If I didn't know any better I'd swear you were Larry Galehouse.

I'm pretty sure that MDOT is required to do a life cycle cost analysis on any project that costs over one million dollars in total cost [[most projects these days). But the LCCA's are fascinating because it is the perpetual battle between asphalt and concrete as to which to use. Ashphalt is cheaper upfront but doesn't last as long. However, there is an entire host of preventive maintenance and rehabilitation fixes you can do to it to cheaply extend the life between reconstructions. Concrete lasts longer [[especially on higher volume commercial corridors) but the upfront cost is higher and there are fewer PM and rehab options that work on concrete.

Preventive maintenance is a wonderful tool in the asset management toolbox. However, Michigan road agencies need to be wary of overselling it at this time. due to the limited funds available, both MDOT and local road agencies have basically been using PM like the dutch boy's finger in the dam to hold everything together as long as possible in hopes of new funding.

Well, the dam has long since broke for locals and is about to break for the state trunkline as well. MDOT has a LOT of roads in fair condition at this point that have already received multiple PM treatments and will require heavier rehabs or full reconstructions in the next go round so they are essentially poor pavements waiting to happen. For those questioning the governor's $1.3B number, it is real. It is based on data and modeling developed by professionals, not by some politicos in a backroom. How that money gets raised is another issue, but the need is there. Every year it doesn't get raised, we fall further behind and the price tag goes up.

[RO_Resident]

No, I'm not Larry Galehouse. I have taken a couple of his NCPP classes, though.

Pretty much any amount of preventive maintenance is better than no PM. There is also a recognition that each community is different. Even a community with the majority of their roads in poor shape will benefit, in the long run, if they adopt an asset management approach to taking care of their infrastructure.

The tools I use to forecast road conditions are descriptive and are limited to 10-year horizon. They are descriptive in that they 'keep the human in the loop'. The forecast[[s) tell you how much work to do for any work type. It is up to the engineer to figure out where to do the actual work.

We also try to limit the out horizon for any forecast we do. We recognize that the model will do PM forever on any stretch of road forever. A lot of model runs will reach equilibrium roughly a decade out. It doesn't make a lot of sense to use extended forecasts when the 12th year's costs are exactly the same as the 20th year. We know the reality will be different for those out years.

[EL Jimbo]

No, I'm not Larry Galehouse. I have taken a couple of his NCPP classes, though.

Pretty much any amount of preventive maintenance is better than no PM. There is also a recognition that each community is different. Even a community with the majority of their roads in poor shape will benefit, in the long run, if they adopt an asset management approach to taking care of their infrastructure.

The tools I use to forecast road conditions are descriptive and are limited to 10-year horizon. They are descriptive in that they 'keep the human in the loop'. The forecast[[s) tell you how much work to do for any work type. It is up to the engineer to figure out where to do the actual work.

We also try to limit the out horizon for any forecast we do. We recognize that the model will do PM forever on any stretch of road forever. A lot of model runs will reach equilibrium roughly a decade out. It doesn't make a lot of sense to use extended forecasts when the 12th year's costs are exactly the same as the 20th year. We know the reality will be different for those out years.

True. PM is an essential part of the AM approach to pavement preservation. You need to invest in it to keep your good and fair roads out of poor condition for as long as possible.

What performance measure are you using to evaluate pavement condition? I assume it is PASER as that is what is being collected by the Asset Management Council. I like PASER, but like other "windshield surveys" it definitely has its limitations. I wish we had sensor-based DI data for the entire federal aid eligible system but that would be very expensive.

[Zacha341]

I expect little as the former governor used little common sense as well.

I love the analogy! Wouldn't it be nice if Gov. approached problems with the same common sense most of us use in our everyday lives? My experience is they do not. Not even close.

[RO_Resident]

These days, we almost exclusively use Paser data. We are well aware of the limitations. However, when you can train someone in a morning, and have workable data by the next day, you are on to something.

Plus, the Paser data runs ~$20 per mile to collect the data. Dedicated trucks run ~$60 per mile to collect condition data and another ~$60 per mile to produce usable data. You run into real money very quickly.

The state is experimenting with a Droid-based system to measure road roughness. They are sorting through some of the quirks in the data collection process.

Michigan Tech is also working on some low-cost processes to collect and analyze distress data.

[Detroitnerd]

There is one place where the roads are much better and are taken care of much, much differently: Essex County. On a drive to Leamington, I was impressed by the lack of traffic, lack of lanes, and interesting patch jobs they used.

[EL Jimbo]

Oh yeah. PASER is a ton cheaper and easier to start up with implementation for sure.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of using IRI as a performance measure to make decisions with. Is likely the one that correlates the most with customer experience? Probably, but it doesn't always match up with actual pavement life. Some roads at the end of their pavement life still ride pretty smoothly while some newer roads can ride a bit rougher earlier in their life.

This is my big concern with MAP-21. Yes there is a push for national performance measures and performance thresholds and the only "consistent" one that is used nationally is IRI [[although there is some variation in how it is measured throughout the country). That's all well and good, but I've yet to see anyone who has been able to create a forecasting model based on IRI. So if transportation agencies are basing their decisions on IRI because that is the measure they are being evaluated against, how can those agencies know if their preservation strategies are producing the best, most cost effective solutions possible given whatever your funding level is?

I'm really interested/nervous to see how that all shakes out.