Let's talk about how the roads around here are PISS POOR, and an embarassment.

[ABetterDetroit]

I am not disputing the reasons you listed, but they are really just a small part of the big problem. I hate the fact that politicians, media, and the populace in general rallies around those smaller issues, and in doing so will ignore the main problem in that we don't spend enough.

If someone were to a make a pie graph of all the reasons why our roads are bad, 95% of the pie would be that we simply don't spend enough, with another 2% for overweight trucks, 1% salt and winter maintenance damage, and 2% for other miscellaneous.

And yet people and politicians cling onto the truck weights, or winter salting, or whatever... and they complain about that to avoid addressing the elephant in the room. Highways cost money, and they eventually wear out, costing more money to repair or replace.

It is really simple. It costs $X to have good roads. If you spend less than $X, you will have bad roads no matter what your truck weights are, no matter how much salt is used, no matter how much crack seal you do.... you still have to spend $X to have good roads.

I do not disagree.

You do have to spend $X amount for anything in this world. It doesn’t change the simple fact tho that the script will quickly flip to what what we really need is a ‘income tax elimination’ or a ‘increase in school funding’ depending on whoever starts running the show next year.

Roads are never prioritized and that is evident.

[313WX]

I am not disputing the reasons you listed, but they are really just a small part of the big problem. I hate the fact that politicians, media, and the populace in general rallies around those smaller issues, and in doing so will ignore the main problem in that we don't spend enough.

If someone were to a make a pie graph of all the reasons why our roads are bad, 95% of the pie would be that we simply don't spend enough, with another 2% for overweight trucks, 1% salt and winter maintenance damage, and 2% for other miscellaneous.

And yet people and politicians cling onto the truck weights, or winter salting, or whatever... and they complain about that to avoid addressing the elephant in the room. Highways cost money, and they eventually wear out, costing more money to repair or replace.

It is really simple. It costs $X to have good roads. If you spend less than $X, you will have bad roads no matter what your truck weights are, no matter how much salt is used, no matter how much crack seal you do.... you still have to spend $X to have good roads.

I agree that the lack of funding is the primary issue, but the things I suggested are the equivalent pouring salt on a open wound [[no pun intended). They all help to make an already bad situation no one wants to resolve worse.

Those are non-monetary [[or far less costly) things that can be addressed to at least somewhat quell the deterioration of the roads, yet the state doesn't even want to address them.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Why does Detroit get dragged out into the sunlight for their obvious failures in governing when over and over again the State of Michigan gets a free pass on the condition of the roads around here?

Ohh... "Well they don't have the money and we don't give it to the state for roads so that's why..."

It is a bullshit excuse. Police, Schools, Fire, Prisons, Roads. If the State can't deliver than there should be hell to pay. Exactly as it should be.

Especially irritating when we will listen to yet another Governors race this summer and fall when both candidates will promise to no end that they will be the one to finally fix the roads just like the previous 4 governors did from both parties and never did.

Michigan politics, "Wash, Rinse, Repeat "

[thomprod]

I've seen many repairs made to surface streets with concrete pavement that consists of sawing out small damaged sections and then pouring concrete replacement patches or strips. This helps, but also causes two more problems: 1. The joints between the new and old concrete are not sealed with tar, allowing water to get in, freeze, thaw and then cause further damage. 2. The new patches are slightly higher than the older [[worn) sections surrounding them, so the road feels rougher as tires drive over the patches.

[O3H]

The Detroit Michigan metropolitan area simply
has NOT put money into great roads.

https://international.fhwa.dot.gov/p...27/pl07027.pdf

Public-private partnerships [[P3s) and innovative contracting:
~ contractors are accepting more responsibility for design, construction, and long term maintenance of roadways. Under such systems, contractors are more likely to choose concrete pavement because its longer life and lower maintenance requirements reduce future risks ~

[Zacha341]

The potholes are insane. There's son-of-pothole right next to double wide/ deep mother-of-pothole! They're everywhere!

Driving at night is particularly fun as you cannot see them in time to dodge 'em. The tire and suspension repair places have got to be in hog heaven making money!! Hand over fist.

I wonder if the extra hard cold temps days on end was a factor in the extra damage to already bad roads this year??

[Honky Tonk]

The potholes are insane. There's son-of-pothole right next to double wide/ deep mother-of-pothole! They're everywhere!

Driving at night is particularly fun as you cannot see them in time to dodge 'em. The tire and suspension repair places have got to be in hog heaven making money!! Hand over fist.

I wonder if the extra hard cold temps days on end was a factor in the extra damage to already bad roads this year?

LOL! Cute, Zacha34. What happens is water gets into all the small cracks in the roads, especially around pothole patches, then when the water freezes, it expands, cracks the asphalt and patches and forces it out. Cars, trucks, and snowplows, running over this surface, help remove the loose asphalt and patches, and there you go.

[Zacha341]

LOL! Mother-of-PotHOLE indeed! I get it! It just seems extra this year....

I am avoiding driving at night until more patches are in place! You teeth fillings [[if you have them) are almost rattling out with these roads.

[canuck]

The most touching thing [[for your car's suspension) are the family potholes, Father, mother and kiddie potholes your car can't avoid. Very touching to notice that some families are still kept together.

[Uncledave54]

LOL! Cute, Zacha34. What happens is water gets into all the small cracks in the roads, especially around pothole patches, then when the water freezes, it expands, cracks the asphalt and patches and forces it out. Cars, trucks, and snowplows, running over this surface, help remove the loose asphalt and patches, and there you go.

Thats all bull crap!
Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and all the other surrounding states go thru the same freeze/thaw cycles. They don't have the kind of garbage for roads we have!

[Honky Tonk]

Thats all bull crap!
Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and all the other surrounding states go thru the same freeze/thaw cycles. They don't have the kind of garbage for roads we have!

Well please, there, Uncledave, enlighten me as to what causes pot holes.

[One Shot]

BREAKING NEWS:

Welfare will be discontinued and everyone will have to re-apply with a REAL reason. Disability benefits will also be discontinued and all beneficiaries will need to re-apply without local scumbag lawyer help.
Imagine the money we would have to fix the roads then.

[bust]

What about incentivizing development where roads and other utilities are already in place instead of continuing Metro Detroit's seemingly never ending [[ex-)urban sprawl?
Then the money otherwise wasted building more roads, water mains, power lines, and utility cables can be better spent maintaining the over-abundance that already exists.
Think it can happen [[Metro) Detroit?

[Bham1982]

BREAKING NEWS:
Welfare will be discontinued and everyone will have to re-apply with a REAL reason. Disability benefits will also be discontinued and all beneficiaries will need to re-apply without local scumbag lawyer help.
Imagine the money we would have to fix the roads then.

The biggest source of federal welfare is the homeowner mortgage/tax deduction, largely benefiting the middle and upper classes. There are all sorts of welfare programs for the rich under the idiotic new tax law, including incentives for new private plane purchases [[!).

The poor barely get anything from the feds these days. The entire HUD budget is chump change. Welfare is very limited and subject to strict work requirements and time limits.

So, no, you would not be able to rebuild the roads if you took formula away from babies, as enticing as that may sound...

[Uncledave54]

Well please, there, Uncledave, enlighten me as to what causes pot holes.

The freeze/thaw excuse is getting old. Yes, the hole is indeed caused by it, but the real question is why does the road even get to that point? Can we say shoddy workmanship? Poor quality materials?

Like i said, other states have the same issues. Why don't they have the problem? Don't tell me tell they do! We all know they don't .

Edit: When this happens is the time to repair it, not wait until we're in the situation we're in.

[Jimaz]

Someone needs to get creative and breed a cement truck with a zamboni.

Or maybe just tow a big heavy squeegee behind a cement truck.

[Honky Tonk]

The freeze/thaw excuse is getting old. Yes, the hole is indeed caused by it, but the real question is why does the road even get to that point? Can we say shoddy workmanship? Poor quality materials?

Like i said, other states have the same issues. Why don't they have the problem? Don't tell me tell they do! We all know they don't .

Edit: When this happens is the time to repair it, not wait until we're in the situation we're in.

The real question was: "I wonder if the extra hard cold temps days on end was a factor in the extra damage to already bad roads this year??"

Which I answered correctly and honestly. Perhaps a remedial course in reading comprehension would help you before calling someone out for posting "Thats all bull crap!", no? Here's a link to Summit County's Engineering website, in PA, explaining the cause of potholes. [[the one's in roads, not the one's in your shirt from smoking one before responding) Let me know if you need help with any of the big words.

http://www.summitengineer.net/resources/learning/52-potholes

[Atticus]

I've seen many repairs made to surface streets with concrete pavement that consists of sawing out small damaged sections and then pouring concrete replacement patches or strips. This helps, but also causes two more problems: 1. The joints between the new and old concrete are not sealed with tar, allowing water to get in, freeze, thaw and then cause further damage. 2. The new patches are slightly higher than the older [[worn) sections surrounding them, so the road feels rougher as tires drive over the patches.

Those are called “band-aid” fixes. Basically, the road commission doesn’t have enough funds to fix it correctly... but the road is on the verge of becoming unsafe to drive, so they make a cheap fix for liability reasons. Then, as you pointed out, this cheap fix breaks down a few years later.

For political and legal reasons, Road commissions can’t just say “We aren’t going to fix this road until we have the money to do it right”. Trust me, they wish they could. But legally the potholes have to be filled, and the joints have to be replaced. So those short term band aids are applied, and they fall apart not long after.


Sorry for the heartburn, but it all comes back to not paying enough such that we can build the roads correctly, and reconstruct and maintain them on a proper schedule. And anytime someone goes off on a tangent about overweight trucks, or over salting, or bad crack seal... it just fulfills the politicans wishes of distracting the discussion from the main issue... which is simply we in Michigan don’t pay enough to have good roads.

[softailrider]

Those are called “band-aid” fixes. Basically, the road commission doesn’t have enough funds to fix it correctly... but the road is on the verge of becoming unsafe to drive, so they make a cheap fix for liability reasons. Then, as you pointed out, this cheap fix breaks down a few years later.

For political and legal reasons, Road commissions can’t just say “We aren’t going to fix this road until we have the money to do it right”. Trust me, they wish they could. But legally the potholes have to be filled, and the joints have to be replaced. So those short term band aids are applied, and they fall apart not long after.


Sorry for the heartburn, but it all comes back to not paying enough such that we can build the roads correctly, and reconstruct and maintain them on a proper schedule. And anytime someone goes off on a tangent about overweight trucks, or over salting, or bad crack seal... it just fulfills the politicans wishes of distracting the discussion from the main issue... which is simply we in Michigan don’t pay enough to have good roads.

When you refer to a band aid fix, are you talking about just patching the potholes as what is happing now, or do you mean totally repaving a road curb to curb in the manner that is done now where the road falls apart again in 2 or 3 years? Is that what you mean by a cheap fix? Every spring, summer and fall all I see is orange barrels, basically fixing the same roads over and over.

[Atticus]

When you refer to a band aid fix, are you talking about just patching the potholes as what is happing now, or do you mean totally repaving a road curb to curb in the manner that is done now where the road falls apart again in 2 or 3 years? Is that what you mean by a cheap fix? Every spring, summer and fall all I see is orange barrels, basically fixing the same roads over and over.

Both are likely band-aid fixes. Another term often used in the industry is "Paint the road black", referring to a thin milling and a thin layer of asphalt done on the cheap. This happens all of the time, and people get confused and think their road has been repaved and become baffled/angry when it falls apart 3-5 years later.

There are very few actual reconstruction projects in Michigan, which is now far too often what is really needed. I am way oversimplifying this, but for most highways, you need to reconstruct it about every 50 years or so, and then within those 50 years you need to mill and resurface that same road about every 15 years. However, if you go cheap on the resurfacing by "painting the road black", or miss the 15 year cycle because of funding problems, then permanent damage is done to the base and sub-base, and reconstruction is needed again before reaching the 50 year mark.

What most people see today is what is called a "mill and fill", and because of budget problems it is normally done on a road with a bad base or sub-base that should also be fixed. Again, this will buy you 3-5 years before the problems return. This is what is commonly happening out there in Metro Detroit today.

There are also some who will argue that you should go all out and "build the roads to last 50 years", which means you reconstruct and so overbuild the road you don't have to resurface it in 15 year cycles. While it sounds nice, this is also usually a bad idea. It is almost guaranteed that over some 50 year period, a water main under the road will break, or a sewer line will need to be repaired or replaced, or someone will want a new natural gas line connection bored under the road. Point being, the road isn't going to last 50 years anyway, so don't waste money trying to build for it. Reconstruct every 50 years, and then let the resurfacing every 15 years address the damages done by utility changes mentioned above.

Road agencies all know this, but sadly they don't have the funds to do what is needed. So they end up "painting the road black" to appease some poltico, and keep it "safe" to drive on for another 3-5 years.

[O3H]

Wacky weather -- north of us -- yeah they have potholes too

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...2018-1.4545821

[sirrealone]

Other states start repairing roads before they fall apart. It's call preventative maintenance. People in Michigan have no idea what that really means because it's never been done.

Other states also schedule complete reconstruction of a road before it actually falls to pieces. Again, something citizens in Michigan probably can't grasp.

But both of these things come down to money. If you speak to the head honchos at MDOT or the county road commissions, they will agree that the things above aren't happening, but will point out that it comes down to money. Other states spend more money on their roads than we do and therefore they have better roads.

Remember, the citizens of Michigan voted down a measure a few years ago that would have allocated a lot more money toward road spending. I wonder if any of the people that voted 'no' on that have now had to pay a lot more money in car repair bills since their vote than they would have in the extra taxes or fees that they would have had to pay.

[erikd]

What about incentivizing development where roads and other utilities are already in place instead of continuing Metro Detroit's seemingly never ending [[ex-)urban sprawl?
Then the money otherwise wasted building more roads, water mains, power lines, and utility cables can be better spent maintaining the over-abundance that already exists.
Think it can happen [[Metro) Detroit?

This is primary reason for our shitty infrastructure, and it is almost never brought up or discussed.

The metro Detroit population hasn't grown since its peak in 1970, yet metro Detroit has continued to expand our infrastructure significantly since that time.

Consider all of the expansions of roads, bridges, sidewalks, water/sewer lines, streetlights, etc. that we have built over the last 50 years in the six-county metro Detroit region. Then consider the fact that we have built all of that additional infrastructure with no additional population to pay for it.

The current state of our infrastructure shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who has lived here for any length of time.

How could we possibly maintain all of this unnecessary additional infrastructure that we have built over the last 50 years without any population growth?

[Bham1982]

T
Consider all of the expansions of roads, bridges, sidewalks, water/sewer lines, streetlights, etc. that we have built over the last 50 years in the six-county metro Detroit region. Then consider the fact that we have built all of that additional infrastructure with no additional population to pay for it.

New infrastructure is paid by new users. If a developer builds a subdivision in some random exurban township, the developer and homebuyers are paying the costs of utilities, water, roads and the like.

You basically can't buy in a new subdivision without separate bill for associated infrastructure, at least for the first few years.

So, no, the roads in Redford Township aren't crappy because they're building new roads in Milford Township or wherever.

[313WX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvhZFUnTjKk