Dan Dirks of DDOT ran the SMART buses on time

[That Great Guy]

So, should we help Mr. Dirks fill our city buses up?

How can this be done?

How can we get public support for this?

Can the freeway expansions be delayed, until community transit is included?

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/301100096

[Scottathew]

Can the freeway expansions be delayed, until community transit is included?

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

[Honky Tonk]

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

The City bus systems are caught in a Catch 22 situation. The majority of people aren't going to ride the bus system until it gets better, and it won't get better until ridership increases. There is also a large percentage of people that find it more convenient to use personal transportation, and won't use public transportation, [[be it bus or blight rail) no matter what you do.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

The majority of people aren't going to ride the bus system until it gets better, and it won't get better until ridership increases.

The majority of people in metro Detroit will never be regular users of mass transit, regardless of what we do. But usage can be increased, especially in Detroit and the denser suburbs. One of the points in the detnews article linked to above made by Mr. Dirks is that it is a goal of his to improve the coordination of different systems. In addition to more frequent and reliable service in clean, modern buses, coordination is paramount. I think all transit systems in the area [[actually, I favor the whole state) should be on a reloadable debit card system, which could be used on any system with free transfers. Saves time and money for everyone involved; also, no cash on a bus is no stolen cash on a bus. And coordinating stations to serve multiple lines and services would be a big benefit. I think the RTA should make coordination as much a priority as anything else [[although I think launching the BRT project and improving the bus fleet, bus stops and technology throughout the system are important, too).

[stasu1213]

The majority of people in metro Detroit will never be regular users of mass transit, regardless of what we do. But usage can be increased, especially in Detroit and the denser suburbs. One of the points in the detnews article linked to above made by Mr. Dirks is that it is a goal of his to improve the coordination of different systems. In addition to more frequent and reliable service in clean, modern buses, coordination is paramount. I think all transit systems in the area [[actually, I favor the whole state) should be on a reloadable debit card system, which could be used on any system with free transfers. Saves time and money for everyone involved; also, no cash on a bus is no stolen cash on a bus. And coordinating stations to serve multiple lines and services would be a big benefit. I think the RTA should make coordination as much a priority as anything else [[although I think launching the BRT project and improving the bus fleet, bus stops and technology throughout the system are important, too).

I agree. I hate standing behind someone who didn't have their change in their hands prepared before the bus arrived and fiddeling in their pockets for the correct change while at the change box holding up the line behind her/him trying to get on the bus out of the freezing temps

[Detroitnerd]

There's no reason not to invest in our freeways.

We need to do more mass transit, we need to regionalize, we need a better bus system, but we don't need to halt freeway investments.

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. That's motherfucking funny.

The bridges should be replaced if we're going to keep I-94 another 50 years, but the expansion plan should be shitcanned.

[Hermod]

Hahahahaha. Oh, man. That's motherfucking funny.

The bridges should be replaced if we're going to keep I-94 another 50 years, but the expansion plan should be shitcanned.

The bridges are the big expense. Just eliminate them and people can't use cars to get around.

[stasu1213]

I disagree Honkytonk. There are many people using public transportation. Especially in Detroit. The biggest myth is that there are not enough people using publiic transportation. Look at all of the people at the bus stops. One of the plots is to make it inconvenient to use public transportation in Detroit. It had been that way since the final days of the DSR

[Honky Tonk]

I disagree Honkytonk. There are many people using public transportation. Especially in Detroit. The biggest myth is that there are not enough people using publiic transportation. Look at all of the people at the bus stops. One of the plots is to make it inconvenient to use public transportation in Detroit. It had been that way since the final days of the DSR

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

[Khorasaurus]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

[That Great Guy]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Yes it is a public service.

In my opinion, Oakland County should help pay for Detroit. Or, NO widening of I-75

[Honky Tonk]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Well then with that approach, I'd say it's running just like it's supposed to.

[leapfrog]

Well then with that approach, I'd say it's running just like it's supposed to.

Honky Tonk, I don't always agree with your posts, but this one made me laugh out loud! I have to clean up my spilled coffee, now.

[Wesley Mouch]

Public transportation isn't a business. It's a public service.

Sure. But there's little difference between the two in terms of how to best operate.

[stasu1213]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

I don't know what line that you live off of. Gratiot, Grand River, Michigan, Hamilton, the mile rds routes, are busy all day and after 6pm. I catches the bus daily. Not just temporarily. I see it. Motorist don't have a clue

[Hermod]

I'm not a PT expert, but for a time period, my ride was in the shop. Luckily, I lived [[@ the time) within walking distance of a major DOT bus route, that dropped me off within walking distance of work. Sure it was packed @ rush hours, both a.m. & p.m., but the rest of the day you were lucky to get half a dozen people @ any given time. It doesn't seem financially feasible that you can run a business this way.

Even when the transit systems were privately owned, the operators were always faced with the problem of being able to afford the capacity for the morning and evening rush while not getting much revenue providing service during the slack times of the day or night.

Attachment 22651

Attachment 22652

[professorscott]

Even when the transit systems were privately owned, the operators were always faced with the problem of being able to afford the capacity for the morning and evening rush while not getting much revenue providing service during the slack times of the day or night.

Indeed. The streetcar companies came up with many novel ways to try to increase the off-peak business. Among other things, this is why amusement parks were originally created: by streetcar companies who would build them at the remote end of a line, to give people a reason to ride on the weekend.

The problem of being too busy a few hours a day and barely busy at all the rest of the time was always an issue for transit operators. Before automobiles became popular and governments started building roads, streetcar companies had a captive audience, so they could make money despite this problem, though in many cases just barely. Of course the streetcar companies put in all their own infrastructure at their own expense, so when the government put in competing infrastructure at government expense, it was the ruin of the private streetcar-line industry.

Once the government started subsidizing any kind of transportation, we became addicted to this and now the government subsidizes, in one way or another, nearly every kind of transportation, freight railways and toll expressways being the notable exceptions.

[Hermod]

Indeed. The streetcar companies came up with many novel ways to try to increase the off-peak business. Among other things, this is why amusement parks were originally created: by streetcar companies who would build them at the remote end of a line, to give people a reason to ride on the weekend.

Jefferson Beached jazzed up weekend traffic on the Jefferson line.
Eastwood Park jazzed up traffic on the Gratiot line.
Edgewater park jazzed up traffic on the Grand River line

[DetroitPlanner]

How can you disagree that the majority of people do not use transit?
http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-15.pdf

Please explain 'the plot to make it inconvenient to use public transport'. If by plot you mean there are a lot less revenues coming in to support everything that government has to do? I suppose there is a plot to have poor police and fire protection, and a plot to empty out neighborhoods due to high taxes and low services?

[downtownguy]

To be fair, stasu said many people use mass transit, not the majority of people. The report cited 5.0% use public transportation. One in 20. I think that's many people.

[downtownguy]

To be fair, stasu said many people use mass transit, not the majority of people. The report cited 5.0% use public transportation. One in 20. I think that's many people.

Article from USA Today in today's Freep says 9.4% of Detroiters use public transit to commute to work. Also interesting to note is that Detroit ranks 8th in the percentage of households without a vehicle at 26.2%. Chicago ranks 7th.

I'll excerpt the part about Detroit here, but the rest of the article makes for interesting reading.

Detroit ranks high on list of U.S. cities where residents are driving less

8. Detroit


> Pct. of households without a vehicle: 26.2%


> Pct. commuting to work via public transportation: 9.4% [[69th most)


> Transit score: n/a


> Population: 706,201 [[18th largest)


Just 21.2% of Detroit households did not have a vehicle in 2007. By 2012, that figure jumped to more than 26%. Residents’ especially low incomes may be one reason for the high percentage of households without a car; the city’s median household income was just $23,600, or well less than half the U.S. median of over $51,000. Detroit had, by far, the lowest walk score of any city where so few households had a car. According to a 2011 analysis by the Brookings Institution, just 59.7% of working-age residents in the Detroit metro area were served by transit systems, lower than more than half of the metro areas reviewed. One public transportation system, the Detroit People Mover, is little-used and extremely expensive to maintain.

[Danny]

This year there suppose to be 225 D-DOT busses running in the City of Detroit. However D-DOT only has 160 working busses. Most of them are almost 10 years old. It least it's not worst than the D-DOT bus crisis of the late 1970s and 80s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdJmHBpglFA

[That Great Guy]

Good comments. The funding and service SMART provides is all protected by the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

We should remember the 50th anniversary of this Federal Law next August by voting on the SMART Property Tax Renewal.

[astongraham]

I'd rather not carry bed bugs home from the bus. I'd rather not sit next to a smelly drunk or listen to the high school students curse and disrespect everyone on the bus. I'd rather not stand outside in the cold and risk not making it to work or doctors appointment on time. I'd rather not get raped or robbed while waiting on the bus. I'd rather get in my car and have peace from all that. I caught the DDOT my entire adolescent and part of my adult life. After having a gun pointed at me at 1am, I'd rather not stand helplessly waiting for a bus, or even worse, a police department that won't respond.
I've caught the Chicago EL and bus system everyday for 8 years. I'm not saying that I could not have been robbed at some point, but it was a FAR better experience that what's offered here.
No one feels safe and secure riding DDOT. In Chicago, everyone from my regional VP to members of my staff all caught the same EL every morning together. It was supported and it was safe and very clean. It also didn't take roughly half to day to move from one point in the city to the next.
I'll settle with expanding freeways until there is an EPIC improvement in public transit and safety in Detroit. I know it will never happen, it's all makeup on a pig at this point.

[astongraham]

It's also very convenient to not ever have to deal with standing behind someone who has no change to board the bus and is hounding everyone to break their $5. Having a completely cashless system like other major cities really speeds things up. For some reason Detroit thought it was a wise decision to invest in the cheapest produced transit fare boxes that are on the market. These machines jam if you try to put more than one coin in at a time, they frequently refuse to accept dollar bills, incorrectly read fare cards and I've noticed that the boxes simply don't work. How much cash is Detroit losing from the dozen or more fare boxes that are broken when you board a coach? I'm sure they are made by the same company that make those toyish looking crappy parking meter kiosks downtown.