Shoeless George Jackson Resigns!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

We rushed the Tiger Stadium demo? People had 9 years of it sitting vacant to put together a plan with money to do something with it. And if the Hudson's hulk was still there, we would just now be beginning the plans to demo it. Which would put a new development there years further out than it already is. AND I have a hunch that the projects that have occurred from Campus Martius Park [[which wouldn't exist) through GCP might not have emerged with empty and boarded up Big Red Building in the middle of it all. Do you remember the pigeons that lived all over and in that place?

Also, if you read my posts, I do favor historic preservation. I just think when you try to save every old building you get no new development and end up losing a lot of old buildings anyway to decay. If I could save one building on GCP it would be the UA theater & office building. It sure looks in better condition than the Statler did before it came down. And I think it has more potential for future use.

And ghettopalmetto, if the Statler just needed a splash of paint and was ripe for reno, why did no one even propose doing anything with it for the 20 years [[was it more?) it was vacant? Ditto the Lafayette. Something sits unused and rotting for ages, and people moan that it was a rush job? As you suggest, I do not have a background in construction or engineering to give out specific quotes on what most building renovations would cost. But I do have eyes, which allow me to both see the general condition of a building and to read articles about the costs and obstacles that faced other renovations of buildings downtown. I feel fairly safe in stating that the Statler Hotel, at the point it came down, would have been a very expensive renovation into either a new hotel or residential development. If you are aware of information about how it would have been surprisingly inexpensive to renovate, please share.

[motz]

Unless the building is structurally unsound or may cause bodily harm to citizens at the street level, why would you demo it when there is very little to no active development occurring? Tigers' Stadium was fenced off, was not harming anyone, and didn't NEED to be demolished that moment. Lafayette could've been delayed long enough to let interested parties complete at least an initial inspection, but George "Came in with a Wrecking Ball" Jackson insisted that it had to come down immediately or several orphanages of nuns and babies would be killed. Seriously, you can bide a bit of time until the structure becomes dangerous [[Hotel Charlevoix) or until redevelopment plans that involve a new structure are in place.

[Jason]

imo the problem with George Jackson is that he understood money [[which is very important), but didn't understand cities. I think with more urban planning and architecture expertise/focus they could have accomplished more.

[ghettopalmetto]

We rushed the Tiger Stadium demo? People had 9 years of it sitting vacant to put together a plan with money to do something with it.

As the City of Detroit was the owner of that property, well...even an idiot can tell you who had responsibility to do what you suggest.

And if the Hudson's hulk was still there, we would just now be beginning the plans to demo it. Which would put a new development there years further out than it already is. AND I have a hunch that the projects that have occurred from Campus Martius Park [[which wouldn't exist) through GCP might not have emerged with empty and boarded up Big Red Building in the middle of it all.

Pure, unadulterated, speculation.

And ghettopalmetto, if the Statler just needed a splash of paint and was ripe for reno, why did no one even propose doing anything with it for the 20 years [[was it more?) it was vacant? Ditto the Lafayette. Something sits unused and rotting for ages, and people moan that it was a rush job?

You're a smart fella. Real estate conditions are constantly changing. Just because they might be unfavorable at one specific point on a trendline, does not necessitate immediate [[and extremely expensive) demolition at right-this-fricking-moment. Cuyahoga County, Ohio is moving its administrative offices into a 29-story building that has been vacant since 1996. It sits at E9th and Euclid, smack in the middle of downtown. The renovated building will have apartments, a theatre, high-end grocery store, and restaurants. The County once voted to demolish the structure, but actually found it was CHEAPER to renovate the existing building than to demolish-and-build. I guess they should have demolished it as soon as the lights were turned off, huh? I mean, how long are you going to wait for something to happen--18 years? Ain't nobody got time fo dat. There are similar examples in Detroit, of buildings that people thought should have been demolished long ago. I honestly have no idea where Detroit gets all this money for demolition. It's baffling.

With every damned demolition that George Jackson has given Detroit, he has created higher hurdles for redevelopment to take place. And he's done it all using PUBLIC money, and without conducting due diligence--such as condition assessments--that are commonplace and expected in the rest of the country. It's just been the word of one man, taken as Gospel truth. And really, after the Hudson's demolition failed to "jump-start" development over 15 years ago, you'd think people wouldn't be stupid enough to fall for these pre-ordained schemes time and again. But you'd be wrong.

[mwilbert]

And this kind of building also gets rehabbed all the time. There are only the resources to do a relatively small number of demolitions downtown, and it is certainly not obvious to me that demoing the Statler was the best use of those resources.

Sure, it could have worked out differently, if someone had shown up who wanted to renovate it. While I think that is a big if, one of my complaints about the DEGC is that they seem to have a serious aversion to mothballing anything, even when it seem like that might have be an economical choice and would preserve the option of redevelopment at some future time. For example, I thought they were in a rather big hurry to get rid of the Lafayette Building. On the other hand, the Statler was vacant for 30 years before it was demolished, so that may not be the best example of rushing to demolition.

[Detroitnerd]

Sure, it could have worked out differently, if someone had shown up who wanted to renovate it. While I think that is a big if, one of my complaints about the DEGC is that they seem to have a serious aversion to mothballing anything, even when it seem like that might have be an economical choice and would preserve the option of redevelopment at some future time. For example, I thought they were in a rather big hurry to get rid of the Lafayette Building. On the other hand, the Statler was vacant for 30 years before it was demolished, so that may not be the best example of rushing to demolition.

Yeah, I tend to think you get the skillset you fund. Since public money is used to grow a bunch of demolition companies, that's what you get, and when demolition is the biggest tool in your box, it's going to seem to always be the appropriate tool.

What would happen if we used government money to seed repurposers, refixers, rehabbers, engineering evaluators ... who knows?

One thing is certain, and that's that we haven't tried that at all.

[trstar]

The Statler was never going to be redeveloped. It would have been a very expensive redo for a building that was never as nice as the B-C [[the most comparable project downtown). Unless someone was willing to just lose money forever on it [[and no one would do that, including anyone on this site, even if they had the money), it just wasn't in the cards. It is easier to one day build on a dirt lot with a clear title than deal with a decrepit eyesore looming over GCP. Since you can't save and renovate every building, you need to be choosy about what to save. The Statler didn't merit saving. Same thing with Tiger Stadium. Sure, there were lots of pretend plans to save it. In reality, there wasn't any realistic way to save it. All the "plans" lacked an ability to pay for the condos/retail/restaurants/baseball museums/ballfields they contained. Gilbert has the right idea: save the buildings that can have a useful future at a reasonable price. Save the dramatic efforts for the one or two most important buildings. I would put MCS on that list [[although, as noted in other threads, not as a train station). George Jackson may have made his share of mistakes, but he has also left a lot of places available for development that were not beforehand. I shudder to think where economic growth would be in this city if some of those on this board had their way. We would still be figuring out how to reopen Hudson's [[world's largest check cashing store?). Sepia-toned memories of old buildings does not a sensible economic policy make. Ironically, uber-preservations do their cause harm. It renders neighborhoods empty and decaying, preventing entrepreneurs from wanting to redevelop the odd project that would otherwise make sense.

I believe your analysis is spot on. Except for Tiger Stadium. I think it could have been downsized to an earlier version of Briggs Field.

I am glad those "development of the week" plans are over for Tiger Stadium. Plus I'm tired of the ruin porn video of non-viable hulking structures. Take you pictures, say a prayer, tear it down, and rebuild.

[Hermod]

I believe your analysis is spot on. Except for Tiger Stadium. I think it could have been downsized to an earlier version of Briggs Field.

I am glad those "development of the week" plans are over for Tiger Stadium. Plus I'm tired of the ruin porn video of non-viable hulking structures. Take you pictures, say a prayer, tear it down, and rebuild.

Navin Field, then Briggs Stadium, and only then Tiger Stadium


George Kell, Hoot Evers, Hal Newhauser, Dizzy Trout.......

[Danny]

Bump!............................

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The Statler might not have been as nice as the Book Cadillac, but neither was the Fort Shelby. That got renovated after having been closed since the '70's.

[ghettopalmetto]

I believe your analysis is spot on. Except for Tiger Stadium. I think it could have been downsized to an earlier version of Briggs Field.

I am glad those "development of the week" plans are over for Tiger Stadium. Plus I'm tired of the ruin porn video of non-viable hulking structures. Take you pictures, say a prayer, tear it down, and rebuild.

Great thought. Except for that nasty little "rebuild" part--it doesn't happen. The hurdles of brand new construction are too high.

The reality is that new development has taken place in the Book-Cadillac, Fort-Shelby, Kales, David Whitney, and so forth. At one time or another, all of these buildings were written off as "dinosaurs". The Compuware building is the only brand-new, constructed-on-an-empty lot downtown building I can recall. And even that lot was vacant for decades.

Still waiting on Hudson's [[with its already-completed on-site parking) to take root after 15 years.

[Khorasaurus]

Great thought. Except for that nasty little "rebuild" part--it doesn't happen. The hurdles of brand new construction are too high.

The reality is that new development has taken place in the Book-Cadillac, Fort-Shelby, Kales, David Whitney, and so forth. At one time or another, all of these buildings were written off as "dinosaurs". The Compuware building is the only brand-new, constructed-on-an-empty lot downtown building I can recall. And even that lot was vacant for decades.

Still waiting on Hudson's [[with its already-completed on-site parking) to take root after 15 years.

I actually don't disagree, but I find it ironic that you posted this on the day that a serious proposal for the Statler site was announced. And I am pretty confident Gilbert will build something on the Hudson's site in the next few years.

But in general, like I said, I agree. The list of renovated buildings is long and getting longer. The list of new construction after speculative demolition is short.

If we demolish buildings, it should be because they are extremely unsafe/blighting their neighbors or because there is a definite plan in place to build on the lot immediately following the demolition [[like the Hammer building in Midtown).

[Huggybear]

The Compuware building is the only brand-new, constructed-on-an-empty lot downtown building I can recall.

One Kennedy Square, the Greektown Casino Hotel, the MGM Grand complex, the Boll YMCA, Gilbert's Z-Lot retail component; the office space built by the Opera House; the office building off of Ford Field, and Book Cadillac annex.

You're right. Not a damn thing has been built on an empty lot since the Compuware Building.

HB

[Huggybear]

Keep beating your heads against the wall.

George Jackson has made decisions some people don't like. But why do you think Tom Lewand might be better? Consider the Lewand-Duggan-Gilbert complex. Then do the math and tell us what you think the prospects would be for the Metropolitan Building, the Wurlitzer, the National Theater, 1300 Beaubien, and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice? Those are all on Gilbert's demo list. Neither the city government nor Lewand has any demonstrated track record on preservation. And Mayor Duggan likes to move on things quickly.

It's not very likely that there will be any structural shift that changes the way the DEGC, DDA and the city interact. But even if there were, and you wanted to cheerlead it, you should know what is behind door #2.

HB

[gthomas]

Show the man some respect. For all he's accomplished he deserves a gravel parking lot named after him.

Lol The most funniest gift EVER!! Hahaha

[ghettopalmetto]

One Kennedy Square, the Greektown Casino Hotel, the MGM Grand complex, the Boll YMCA, Gilbert's Z-Lot retail component; the office space built by the Opera House; the office building off of Ford Field, and Book Cadillac annex.

You're right. Not a damn thing has been built on an empty lot since the Compuware Building.

HB

Ah yeah, I forgot about One Kennedy Square. My bad. I think the casinos were special cases--there just weren't any suitable buildings that could have housed those operations [[although it's worth noting that Motor City went into a renovated building). The office building at Ford Field was the old Hudson's warehouse, was it not?

So yes, I may have exaggerated a bit. I'll concede that. But where a renovation project of a downtown high-rise structure would have been completely unthinkable 10 years ago, they are actually happening. One might think that this indicates a paradigm shift, and thus, stop relying on demolition to somehow "jump start" magic that causes miraculous new development to appear [[I'm *still* not sure how this mechanism is supposed to work.).

But, like you said, Huggybear. You get the skill sets that you breed. And as you've aptly noted, there isn't a strong preservation or adaptive-reuse culture or cadre of professionals in Detroit. The demolition contractors, of course, are in abundance, because they've been the ones to make a buck.

Now, the Lewand-Duggan-Gilbert complex may not be perfect. But I'd have to imagine that, not hiding behind the guise of an unaccountable quasi-public agency, that they might conduct more due diligence and be more forthcoming with information than Detroit's Michael Bay of Real Estate Development.

[ismoakrack]

You know what makes me sad? All of the 'high rises' that were demo'd for Comerica. I have not lived in the city/area long enough to have ever seen what that area looked like when those building were still standing [[except for in pictures). But what an awesome residential area THAT could have been. Seems the same short-sightedness is in play regarding the current plans for the Cass Park area.

[downtownguy]

Consider the Lewand-Duggan-Gilbert complex. Then do the math and tell us what you think the prospects would be for the Metropolitan Building, the Wurlitzer, the National Theater, 1300 Beaubien, and the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice? Those are all on Gilbert's demo list.

What's your source on this? I haven't heard any plans to demo any of these buildings. A few rumors, but no facts. Wurlitzer has new owners. How do they get to demo it?

[motz]

What's your source on this? I haven't heard any plans to demo any of these buildings. A few rumors, but no facts. Wurlitzer has new owners. How do they get to demo it?

Well by stealing our precious jewels and EMs and maybe L Brooks Patterson? I'm not sure but they figure it out.

I mean seriously, don't go barfing a bunch of names of building that Gilbert wants to demo without backing it up. The only one I've heard he wants to demo is the National Theater's theater portion. He wants to keep the facade and entrance area with its Pewabic tiles.

[royce]

This thread should have been titled, "Clueless George Jackson Resigns!" It's about time. His stance on the Tiger Stadium site is what sealed the deal for me in terms of realizing he didn't understand the passion behind people's desire to save certain structures in this city. Again, that's because he was absolutely "clueless."

Also, learning that he lived in Southfield didn't help win me over either. Not saying that those who live outside the city don't care about the city, but for someone in the position he was in should have lived in the city to truly understand what it means to live in a city. Again, that's why I think he was "clueless."

[stasu1213]

Was one of the role of the DEGC was to decide what small business would open in a certain location. Were it responsible for the Hatch grant or award given to nrw small businesses

[Novine]

Looks like Demolition Jackson wants to get a cut of the public tax dollars. From Crains.

'He will remain with the economic development group as the president and CEO until March 31, when he will leave to form his own consulting firm.


There is no name for Jackson's new firm, and he won't identify any potential clients or projects he hopes to work on, but he did say he is working with several investors.


"It will be development and consulting, things of this nature," he said. "I don't want to get into the details yet; that will be coming next. We are still crossing the T's and dotting the I's."'

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...tion-from-degc

[Richard]

Looks like Demolition Jackson wants to get a cut of the public tax dollars. From Crains.

'He will remain with the economic development group as the president and CEO until March 31, when he will leave to form his own consulting firm.


There is no name for Jackson's new firm, and he won't identify any potential clients or projects he hopes to work on, but he did say he is working with several investors.


"It will be development and consulting, things of this nature," he said. "I don't want to get into the details yet; that will be coming next. We are still crossing the T's and dotting the I's."'

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...tion-from-degc

To me the only reason he existed was because the city gov was so screwed up,so they created another job to make up for it.

Other cities handle this aspect quite well,sans the insults,no reason for the city not to handle it,this is just a form of bowing out.

Finial say still has to come from the city,so why not just go to the source in the future.Unless it is a pay me to make it easier, cause I know how to go around that... wink wink.

Ever notice,for all the good done,outside investment other then speculative buying was kept to a bare minimum,as if only a few local well connected were allowed to participate.

What now? opps that only works for so long until you get what you have.