What the Michigan Depot could look like

[mikeg19]

What ever happened to civic ambition?

We have to think more long term. The tracks lead to CANADA, and Detroit will be a major station on a future international high-speed rail line. Thousands of travelers from Montreal, Toronto, Chicago and beyond could pass through the station every day.

Subway or light-rail could easily connect passengers with Downtown, less than two miles to Campus Martius. The station could be a hub for suburban commuters and inter-city travelers alike.

The new center station can still be important, as many cities have multiple passenger rail hubs.

I agree with your points, but I feel like the problem is that high speed rail is so far off, the utilization of MCS wouldn't come for a long time. Yes, they are upgrading track from DET to CHI, but in terms of Detroit being a draw as a destination stop, it's a ways off. It Corktown were farther along where it is from a development standpoint, I could see possibly using the station.

My question is, how does the city of Detroit, or regional authority, convince Amtrack to use MCS as a hub, and does Amtrack need to sink any money into this, or would it be some sort of space leasing deal where they aren't on the hook for any rehab costs?

[Honky Tonk]

So, wait, you guys are saying...it's not gonna be the new police headquarters like Kwame promised??

It will be as soon as he gets out and gets re-elected. You all set him up for a come-back.

[ghettopalmetto]

My question is, how does the city of Detroit, or regional authority, convince Amtrack to use MCS as a hub, and does Amtrack need to sink any money into this, or would it be some sort of space leasing deal where they aren't on the hook for any rehab costs?

I think that's an important question. If I remember correctly, Amtrak does, for the most part, own its own stations. Amtrak, despite setting record ridership numbers every year, remains consistently underfunded by Congress. So I don't see them acquiring large properties in the near future.

I don't see why space couldn't be leased to Amtrak--I think the owner of the building would want to retain rights to the high-rise space above. If it were to be renovated back into a train station, several steps would need to be taken:

1. Establish a frequent and fast transit connection [[light rail) to the Central Business District [[Michigan Ave or Fort St). It reasons that such a connection would be more effective if it continued up Woodward. Recall that MCS is 1.6 miles from Campus Martius. The existing Amtrak station is 2.8 miles away, and it is assumed that M1 Rail will be able to make this connection. So distance is not the issue here.

2. Plan to operate commuter rail service [[from Ann Arbor, Pontiac/Flint, Mt. Clemens, Toledo[[?)) into MCS, connecting it with intercity service.

3. Establish a hub for intercity and local bus service at the station, a la Boston's South Station. This was the big mistake of the new Greyhound station--it was never coordinated at a regional level.

There is plenty of room at the site to accomplish all this, and certainly more than at the Milwaukee location. I would think the crux, of course, is leasing the space. I don't see why the high-rise couldn't be some mix of hotel, apartment, and office space, though, with retail in the station building. It could be the centerpiece and anchor of the neighborhood, as it once was--businesses LIKE being near transit hubs!

Whether anyone realizes it or not, a big blow was dealt to MCS when Gov. John Kasich of Ohio reneged on the Ohio Hub Plan, that would have brought several passenger trains to Detroit via Toledo every single day. I'm still optimistic that a future, more progressive, Ohio governor will implement the plan one day, but it's going to take time.

All of this is a pipe dream, though, as long as Maroun owns the building. It would also take an enormous paradigm shift at MDOT, who seems to take a mantle of obligation to ensure easy motoring at all costs.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Establish a frequent and fast transit connection [[light rail) to the Central Business District [[Michigan Ave or Fort St). It reasons that such a connection would be more effective if it continued up Woodward. Recall that MCS is 1.6 miles from Campus Martius. The existing Amtrak station is 2.8 miles away, and it is assumed that M1 Rail will be able to make this connection. So distance is not the issue here.

While MCS is closer than the current New Center station to Campus Martius, the existing station is profoundly closer to the Fisher Building, Henry Ford Hospital, Cadillac Place, Wayne State, Cultural Center & Medical Center than MCS is to anything except Slows. It is also on Detroit's main drag, and is served by city buses, soon to be complemented by M1 rail and possibly BRT.

Plan to operate commuter rail service [[from Ann Arbor, Pontiac/Flint, Mt. Clemens, Toledo[[?)) into MCS, connecting it with intercity service.

New rights-of-way and tracks would need to be created for these services. Amtrak's existing routes do not veer anywhere near MCS. And costs of renovating the station aside, and adapting Amtrak routes to serve it, where would the money come from to build and operate those new commuter rail lines? We are having trouble launching just the Detroit-Ann Arbor line, which would run on existing track and has a lot of potential users.

Establish a hub for intercity and local bus service at the station, a la Boston's South Station. This was the big mistake of the new Greyhound station--it was never coordinated at a regional level.

While I think integrating bus and rail services is generally a good idea, I think it's imperative to keep bus service downtown proper. It's one thing to move Amtrak, which serves a small and generally affluent set of riders to an off-the-beaten-path station like MCS. But wouldn't it be a real hardship to move bus service, used by thousands everyday, away from downtown?

businesses LIKE being near transit hubs!

Businesses like governments that don't throw good money after bad even more.

Whether anyone realizes it or not, a big blow was dealt to MCS when Gov. John Kasich of Ohio reneged on the Ohio Hub Plan, that would have brought several passenger trains to Detroit via Toledo every single day. I'm still optimistic that a future, more progressive, Ohio governor will implement the plan one day, but it's going to take time.

Precisely how many people would visit Detroit from Toledo, who aren't doing so now by means of frequent and inexpensive bus service, or driving their own cars? Now, I too have heard the rumors that hundreds of thousands of people with cash in hand, ready to spend in downtown Detroit, are stuck in Toledo just wishing they had infrequent and expensive service to 2 miles from downtown... But I think they are just rumors.

All of this is a pipe dream, though, as long as Maroun owns the building. It would also take an enormous paradigm shift at MDOT, who seems to take a mantle of obligation to ensure easy motoring at all costs.

Matty is not an obstacle for transit purposes. The city or state could take the station through eminent domain at fair market value, which since Matty loses money on it, would be very cheap. The extremely high cost of renovating it [[plus the cost of building all the transit to it) for little practical benefit is what prevents MCS from being a transit hub for Detroit. That's why the building's future is as part of a large commercial or cultural project.

[Richard]

Because railroads have always used east to west and north to south to designate trains.

It is Chicago-New Orleans, not New Orleans-Chicago.

It is Chicago-Denver not Denver-Chicago.

Thank you,sir, for clarifying that.

[Richard]

Not to be condescending, Richard, but could you summarize your main point or question? I can't really figure out from your post what you are trying to say.

You kinda need to use the whole thread to understand it,it was not a stand alone response.

I would agree that MCD could not act as a stand alone station in transit,but I also understand that it is no different then many other buildings in the city.

You could not just drop a Target into the East side without many other things taking place in conjunction for it to work,just like the city was unable to move forward without certain events taking place first.

Each building outside the CBD is like a picture puzzle,unless it is a non profit many pieces need to come together for it to work,otherwise it is speculation purchasing.

Now MCD is a picture puzzle and the transit piece is a given.

Next piece is the office tower,what does it have to offer right now?

Space and located next to rail,trucking and close access to air cargo.

Lets say for instance if Sears moved their online sales and shipping there going back to their roots and going up against Amazon,which is beating everybody.

That piece would not fit as a stand alone aspect because of the massive warehouse that is needed.

Next piece,Detroit becomes a Fed designated manufacturing hub and Sears becomes a Made in America outlet for goods. Opens a hands on brick and mortar store within,Mall Of America is remote but a destination in its own.

Under the hub aspect companies that manufacture Made in America goods locate to Detroit and supply Sears on demand,no need for Sears to warehouse,Sears can compete,goods have a buying source and faster shipping,manufactures save from having to ship cross country.

Now a derelict train station has not just been reused it also played a part in adding a large fast boost to the city in jobs and revenue and relocating thousands from outside.

Of course the next problem would be as to where everybody would park.

[river rat]

Oh my, Richard, you state that the DC Union Station [[a fabulous place designed by the great Daniel Burnham) is not in a walkable area!!! It 975 feet from the US Capitol and there are 28 restaurants within the three block radius of the station. Not to mention there are dozen more in the station itself. Under the lunacy of the Carter Admin. it too was derelict. Enter Ron Reagan and it is a jewel of a place that has thousands of visitors daily.

[Richard]

Oh my, Richard, you state that the DC Union Station [[a fabulous place designed by the great Daniel Burnham) is not in a walkable area!!! It 975 feet from the US Capitol and there are 28 restaurants within the three block radius of the station. Not to mention there are dozen more in the station itself. Under the lunacy of the Carter Admin. it too was derelict. Enter Ron Reagan and it is a jewel of a place that has thousands of visitors daily.

Yes if you know the area,but what about the first time,you get off of the train,go through a crowded station bypassing the stores there because you know you have hours to kill and not by sitting in a coffee shop.

Look at the spaghetti maze of transit options and spend an hour there,or walk out the front doors and see rows of cars and streets,you have to look at it through the eyes of a first time visitor to capitalize and how do you cater to that.

The point was the difference in Chicago you have to know where you are going and how you can get there.

To capitalize on first impressions and tourists you should be there to show them the way and make them feel comfortable.

If MCD became a station with layovers it would be the same thing,do you really want first time visitors to be wandering about Detroit without guidance?Tourists get mugged and it does have an impact on the trade.

It is 25 minute walk to the capital you cannot tell that from looking out the front doors.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

River rat, you are completely correct. And the station is also surrounded by office buildings [[to be fair, some are new since the reconstruction, but there are many that precede the reno, too).

Renovating Union Station in DC made a lot of sense in ways the MCS as a train hub does not. First, DC was [[and still is) a major destination for Amtrak, VIA, and MARC trains, which were stopping at the station anyway, even before the renovation. Metro built the Red Line with a stop right in the station. Second, all that foot traffic was in an area with little baisc retail services. Third, in addition to hordes of commuters, the immediate vicinity of Union Station has thousands of tourists who look for places to eat and to buy souvenirs. To be comparable, MCS would need to be walkable to the State Capitol, Cultural Center, a swarm of office buildings, and have very busy rail service already there. THEN it would make sense just like Union Station's renovation. But that isn't the case.

[ghettopalmetto]

Renovating Union Station in DC made a lot of sense in ways the MCS as a train hub does not. First, DC was [[and still is) a major destination for Amtrak, VIA, and MARC trains, which were stopping at the station anyway, even before the renovation. Metro built the Red Line with a stop right in the station. Second, all that foot traffic was in an area with little baisc retail services. Third, in addition to hordes of commuters, the immediate vicinity of Union Station has thousands of tourists who look for places to eat and to buy souvenirs. To be comparable, MCS would need to be walkable to the State Capitol, Cultural Center, a swarm of office buildings, and have very busy rail service already there. THEN it would make sense just like Union Station's renovation. But that isn't the case.

You know what doesn't generate foot traffic? An empty shell of a building.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to MCS as long as Maroun is alive. But it's fun to dream.

[Gistok]

You know what doesn't generate foot traffic? An empty shell of a building.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to MCS as long as Maroun is alive. But it's fun to dream.

The good news is that he's 87!

[Richard]

You know what doesn't generate foot traffic? An empty shell of a building.

We all know that nothing is going to happen to MCS as long as Maroun is alive. But it's fun to dream.

At the end of the day he is still a business man,one would think if a feasible plan was placed in front of him that would make money I would highly doubt it would be rejected or funding assistance denied.

The down side would be that in his realm of investing you would not invest $50 million into a taco stand,the rate of return would have to be comparable.

Most of the posts give opinions and reasons on why it will never happen,which for the most part are valid,but yet the owner is a POS because it does not happen.

[ghettopalmetto]

At the end of the day he is still a business man,one would think if a feasible plan was placed in front of him that would make money I would highly doubt it would be rejected or funding assistance denied.

The down side would be that in his realm of investing you would not invest $50 million into a taco stand,the rate of return would have to be comparable.

Most of the posts give opinions and reasons on why it will never happen,which for the most part are valid,but yet the owner is a POS because it does not happen.

Maroun is a businessman, but he's a trucking magnate, not a real estate developer. He has shown time and again that his only interest is preserving and expanding his trucking empire. It's not as if he's looked at the numbers to renovate MCS and decided that such a project is infeasible. I suspect the only reason he bought the building was so he could have control of the railroad trucks that cut through the property.

Michigan Central Station, like the Ambassador Bridge, is a piece of public infrastructure that frankly, has no business being in the hands of a private owner.

[Richard]

Maroun is a businessman, but he's a trucking magnate, not a real estate developer. He has shown time and again that his only interest is preserving and expanding his trucking empire. It's not as if he's looked at the numbers to renovate MCS and decided that such a project is infeasible. I suspect the only reason he bought the building was so he could have control of the railroad trucks that cut through the property.

Michigan Central Station, like the Ambassador Bridge, is a piece of public infrastructure that frankly, has no business being in the hands of a private owner.

Well there are several privately owned toll roads across the country that could be considered a part of the infrastructure,looking at the shape of our countries infrastructure it may have been better in private hands.

Remember the bridge collapse in St. Paul,chunks falling off of your overpasses shutting down those freeways to heaven.

My guess is if the city had control of MCD,and looking at the past,this conversation would be about what may be built on the empty lot based on the demolish it and they will come theory.

All and all at least the city has collected taxes on it which is more then a few other cases.

The current situation could be way worse.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

[QUOTE=Richard;420275

The current situation could be way worse.[/QUOTE]

i totally agree. Like you stated, he has paid taxes on it all these years. And it may be generally diliapidated, but it is not in imminent danger of collapse. And unlike structures located downtown, it is not a drag on an otherwise thriving area. I look forward to the day when a developer does something with it. Thrilled it didn't become police HQ.