Lansing's plan for immigration and Detroit?

**mwilbert** · January-24-14, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

What I have tried to explain is that I agree they are not the same. My point is that they are in fact conflicting. Which is the problem.

We have a labor over supply, not a shortage. Importing 50k new unemployed [[because he's asking for the waivers on employment requirement) STEM people from out of the country is not going to accomplish anything.

The fact that they are conflicting is relevant to whether it is a good idea, but it doesn't seem relevant to whether it would work. You are assuming that they wouldn't be hired. If that assumption is correct, the program wouldn't accomplish anything. However I don't think it is an obvious assumption.

As I think you already noted, there are lots of foreign STEM workers brought in on H1-B's now, despite the fact that there would appear to be US people who are qualified, so I'm guessing that despite the fact that there are lots of un/underemployed STEM people already, there would still be demand for this new pool of workers. The real question about the plan is whether having a known supply available in Detroit would create more demand for such worker in Detroit, as companies opened or expanded operations in the city to take advantage of this guaranteed source of skilled labor. It is entirely possible that it would not work, but I think it is also possible that it would.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-24-14, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Hey, dismiss the concerns -- and evidence -- of those you don't agree with and maybe it will all go away.

That website had no facts. Just opinions.

My Opinion: H1B visa encourage more foreign talent into the US, increasing our talent pool. Will it depress wages for engineers? Maybe. But you'll also depress wages for engineers if the work moves overseas.

I want the best talent of the world to come to the US.

If we don't open our doors, I guarantee you they will still compete with us. The right-wing anti-immigration policy is massively stupid.

Nerd, I encourage you to open your arms to those who aren't like you. Don't chase people away. Let the best student who study here stay here. Let them work for the US.

**oladub** · January-24-14, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

My Opinion: H1B visa encourage more foreign talent into the US, increasing our talent pool. Will it depress wages for engineers? Maybe. But you'll also depress wages for engineers if the work moves overseas.

I want the best talent of the world to come to the US.

If we don't open our doors, I guarantee you they will still compete with us. The right-wing anti-immigration policy is massively stupid.

Nerd, I encourage you to open your arms to those who aren't like you. Don't chase people away. Let the best student who study here stay here. Let them work for the US.

I wonder how much enthusiasm there would be for importing cheaper foreign labor if as part of such agreements, corporate taxes and taxes on the 1% went up, say, 30%. If competing with people willing to work for half your wages is so tonic, why not let the beneficiaries of such arrangement share the fun.

Meat packing plants used to be union but now they are starter jobs for illegal aliens or Somalis and taxpayers pay for what their employers don't. Construction jobs are going the same route. Now, its supposed to be a good idea to substitute cheaper foreign engineers like it's going to make our engineers work harder and be more competitive or something. The 1% love these ideas. The social compact between labor and management in this Country is broken and this idea, this scheme, is illustrative of that.

**mwilbert** · January-24-14, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

I wonder how much enthusiasm there would be for importing cheaper foreign labor if as part of such agreements, corporate taxes and taxes on the 1% went up, say, 30%. If competing with people willing to work for half your wages is so tonic, why not let the beneficiaries of such arrangement share the fun.

Meat packing plants used to be union but now they are starter jobs for illegal aliens or Somalis and taxpayers pay for what their employers don't. Construction jobs are going the same route. Now, its supposed to be a good idea to substitute cheaper foreign engineers like it's going to make our engineers work harder and be more competitive or something. The 1% love these ideas. The social compact between labor and management in this Country is broken and this idea, this scheme, is illustrative of that.

This scheme doesn't call for admitting any more people than are already being admitted. It is just a reallocation to people willing to live in Detroit. Your complaints about how income has become less equally distributed over time are legitimate, although how much of that is attributable to immigration is a lot less clear, but in either case not really directly applicable to this proposal.

**Wesley Mouch** · January-24-14, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

I wonder how much enthusiasm there would be for importing cheaper foreign labor if as part of such agreements, corporate taxes and taxes on the 1% went up, say, 30%. If competing with people willing to work for half your wages is so tonic, why not let the beneficiaries of such arrangement share the fun.

Meat packing plants used to be union but now they are starter jobs for illegal aliens or Somalis and taxpayers pay for what their employers don't. Construction jobs are going the same route. Now, its supposed to be a good idea to substitute cheaper foreign engineers like it's going to make our engineers work harder and be more competitive or something. The 1% love these ideas. The social compact between labor and management in this Country is broken and this idea, this scheme, is illustrative of that.

I hear you on the 1%... but don't let your mistrust of those at the top turn you into a protectionist. Trade and free movement of talent may have effect on wages -- but if we are to remain the world's most vibrant economy we cannot turn our backs to the world either. We have to engage. We have to be the place that everyone on the globe wants to come because we are the best. I know what some engineers at GM earn. It is not poverty. And they know that if they are not engaged in the world, GM will not stay profitable. Look at what happened last time. We got sloppy in the 70s and 80s. We thought we were the world. We were wrong. Japan and Germany entered the US and built better cars than we did. We had high wages. But then it was followed by the decline of Detroit. Let's not do that again. Let's be open to the world and continue to building the world's best cars, by the best and brightest engineers in the whole world. That's how we can do Detroit best.

**Chinman** · January-24-14, 10:50 PM

let me make this simple so please do not quote u.s. immigration poly on who is allowed in. scenario #1. young man in india get to go to college and get a degree in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering or computer systems. he then get a job at a subsidiary of gm, ford chrysler, siemens or any other manufacturing company [[or for that matter, publishing) that is in his country. an opportunity to fill an opening in the u.s. comes up and his managers promote his skills as valuable to the u.s. operation. the company files all the paperwork and negotiated to get him a h1-visa. he likes it here and works on getting his wife and kids here. she gets a job at cvs and adds to the economy. maybe now he gets mom and dad the ability to get here. his dad buys a franchise to a jets pizza or a retail outlet. now we have a whole family contributing to the u.s. economy. that is immigration. all of our great, great parents, grand parents and even parents did this! just sayin! i have many personal stories of this happening.

**Chinman** · January-24-14, 10:55 PM

scenario #2. any person south of texas, arizona, new mexico or california are sneaking into the country because the economies of their countries are not the greatest. the are looking for an opportunity to have a better life. they take the jobs that you don't want. 14 hour days bent over picking the tomatoes green beans and fruit that you enjoy for $1.99 a pound, or cutting your grass and trimming your bushes for cheap wages.

**Chinman** · January-24-14, 10:56 PM

both scenarios show a human need to better a life for themselves and the family.

**oladub** · January-24-14, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Chinman

scenario #2. any person south of texas, arizona, new mexico or california are sneaking into the country because the economies of their countries are not the greatest. the are looking for an opportunity to have a better life. they take the jobs that you don't want. 14 hour days bent over picking the tomatoes green beans and fruit that you enjoy for $1.99 a pound, or cutting your grass and trimming your bushes for cheap wages.

They take any job US workers won't do for illegal alien wages and then taxpayers give their kids free educations, free medical care, and other benefits their cheating employers don't provide. People rob banks because their personal economies are not the greatest either. That's not a good reason. Detroit already has a lot of people without jobs. I'll gladly pay an extra dime or quarter for a head of lettuce to put Americans to work if that's what it takes. It would be offset by lower taxes and better schools. I realize though that this thread is about somehow bringing in lower paid workers to compete with US engineers and not about someone trimming rich peoples' bushes.

**Chinman** · January-24-14, 11:58 PM

good point sir. but i ask...would you pay an extra dime and spend hours picking that head of lettuce and then buy it? as i said...it is not that an american engineer can't do the job...it is that subsidiary companies, i.e. american manufactures, pitch the job to the candidate that fits. it that person comes from india, japan or china, then that is up to the globalized companies that they are, to hire the right fit.

**Chinman** · January-25-14, 12:03 AM

those countries are beating us in upper-graduate scores in many industries. maybe this country should start investing in academic's more. damn...it is either norway or sweden that offers FREE college to any student or foreign student. talk about increasing your brain-pool!!!

**Dan Wesson** · January-25-14, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Trade and free movement of talent may have effect on wages -- but if we are to remain the world's most vibrant economy we cannot turn our backs to the world either.

Ha Ha Ha

Rose colored glasses. Remain? This economy has only the appearance of vibrancy. If it weren't for the fact that we have the World Reserve Currency, Legal Deficit Spending to Infinity and bringing resources needed in the future to the present....

All the above, by the way, are being abused.

Well let's put it this way "Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success".

This vibrancy is not robust or real. It's gilded glitter, it's a facade layered over a foundation of immense debt.

**oladub** · January-25-14, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Chinman

good point sir. but i ask...would you pay an extra dime and spend hours picking that head of lettuce and then buy it? as i said...it is not that an american engineer can't do the job...it is that subsidiary companies, i.e. american manufactures, pitch the job to the candidate that fits. it that person comes from india, japan or china, then that is up to the globalized companies that they are, to hire the right fit.

I'm the wrong person to ask. I have a quarter acre garden, raise beef, have butchered deer, raised hogs once, and have helped a neighbor harvest tobacco but yes, I would gladly pay the extra dime to get Americans off unemployment lines.

I really don't care about the convenience of transnational corporations. If I did, I would support the TPP. In the past, corporations provided education to upgrade their employees if public schools didn't prepare them or there was a labor shortage. Now, it is easier to capitalize foreign operations and just bring someone in to fill the gap you speak of. That is part of the broken social contract between management and labor I mentioned.

**SDCC** · January-25-14, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Chinman

those countries are beating us in upper-graduate scores in many industries. maybe this country should start investing in academic's more. damn...it is either norway or sweden that offers FREE college to any student or foreign student. talk about increasing your brain-pool!!!

In America the academic beat-down begins in high school – if not middle school – America’s youth is slipping, if not falling flat on its face. Mathematics, and mathematics related majors lead the way, and are America’s Achilles heel.

It’s not about the money

I would estimate 60% or more of the students attending SDCCD are receiving Pell grants and BGOG [[board of governor’s waiver). Classes are paid for via the BGOG waiver, books, supplies, and pocket money are provided by the Pell - $5645.00 per year.
Academically minded students can apply for scholarships as well, I have received 4 scholarships this year myself.

Additionally there are Stafford Loans – direct student loans - $3500.00 the first year, then $4500.00 a year thereafter. I have cut and paste my financial aid from SDCC. There are many students that are serious about their education and seriously compete in the classroom, then there are students that take the money and run.

Fall Spring TOTAL
DIRECT LOAN $2250 $2,250 | $4,500
PELL GRANT $2823 $2,822 | $5,645
-----
TOTAL $5,073 |$5,072| | $10,145

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...eading-science

**Wesley Mouch** · January-25-14, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

They take any job US workers won't do for illegal alien wages and then taxpayers give their kids free educations, free medical care, and other benefits their cheating employers don't provide. People rob banks because their personal economies are not the greatest either. That's not a good reason. Detroit already has a lot of people without jobs. I'll gladly pay an extra dime or quarter for a head of lettuce to put Americans to work if that's what it takes. It would be offset by lower taxes and better schools. I realize though that this thread is about somehow bringing in lower paid workers to compete with US engineers and not about someone trimming rich peoples' bushes.

Nobody is stopping you from paying 10 cents more for your lettuce. There are dozens of so-called 'fair trade' products on which you can voluntarily choose to spend your money -- if you want to. But this has nothing to do with skilled engineering H1B visas. You are allowed your protectionist, xenophobic opinions. But thoughts about field workers wages have nothing to do with how wages for engineers should be set, IMO.

**hortonz** · January-25-14, 02:28 PM

Frankly I am all in favor of increased immigration to Detroit. Both my parents were immigrants and much of the vitality that Detroit had in its' heyday came from immigration from other countries and migration from other parts of the U.S. But I wonder: given the way lunatics and extremists have taken over the GOP, will anything come out of the Governor's initiative or is it just another attempt by this administration to fool people into thinking the Republicans have come the their senses?

**coracle** · January-25-14, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by hortonz

Frankly I am all in favor of increased immigration to Detroit. Both my parents were immigrants and much of the vitality that Detroit had in its' heyday came from immigration from other countries and migration from other parts of the U.S. But I wonder: given the way lunatics and extremists have taken over the GOP, will anything come out of the Governor's initiative or is it just another attempt by this administration to fool people into thinking the Republicans have come the their senses?

Considering you are in favor of increased immigration why is it questionable now the lunatics and extremists of the GOP want to do it? Would you prefer Detroit relied on the Democrat plan succeeding.

**Dan Wesson** · January-25-14, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by SDCC

In America the academic beat-down begins in high school – if not middle school – America’s youth is slipping, if not falling flat on its face. Mathematics, and mathematics related majors lead the way, and are America’s Achilles heel.

It’s not about the money

Maybe something along this line?

http://www.mlive.com/education/index..._teachers.html

**CrashDummy** · January-26-14, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

THERE IS NO ENGINEERING/STEM SHORTAGE. there is a shortage of CHEAP STEM'ers.

With all due respect to your trade journals, when is the last time you tried to hire and engineer? THERE IS ABSOLUTELY AN ENGINEERING SHORTAGE. We have a number of unfilled requests for new engineers due to the lack of qualified applicants. I haven't been looking for a job in 3 years, but every week I get 4-5 phone calls and emails from headhunters looking for anybody who might want to change jobs or might know of someone looking for a job. Also, engineering jobs in India are lower paid because the cost of living is lower there. They don't come to the US and work for cheap. What, do you think I drive to work in a pickup truck, picking up Indians by the side of the road and herd them all into some hot, crowded room so they can crank out some engineering?

GUSHI · January-27-14, 06:34 PM

Both my parents are immigrants and
i think its a stupid idea.

**mwilbert** · February-06-14, 01:11 AM

In the NYT today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/op...-solution.html

Their editorial board isn't on board, except as a way of arguing for broader immigration reform.

**Wesley Mouch** · February-06-14, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

In the NYT today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/06/op...-solution.html

Their editorial board isn't on board, except as a way of arguing for broader immigration reform.

The NYTimes should consider becoming a regular at DYes. They'd fit right in.

"Such a limited visa program might also reinforce the misguided belief that highly skilled immigrants are the only ones worth the trouble. This is putting a velvet rope beside the Golden Door and saying: We’ll take you, you and you — not you. World-class entrepreneurs and scholars come from poor and blue-collar families, too."

Well, of course having standards excludes some people. We might like to help everyone, but sometimes you just have to work with something imperfect. The Times, like so many here, let their ideology get in the way of getting anything done.

**Detroitman32** · February-09-14, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

What I have tried to explain is that I agree they are not the same. My point is that they are in fact conflicting. Which is the problem.

We have a labor over supply, not a shortage. Importing 50k new unemployed [[because he's asking for the waivers on employment requirement) STEM people from out of the country is not going to accomplish anything.

That is the point though, THERE IS NO ENGINEERING/STEM SHORTAGE. there is a shortage of CHEAP STEM'ers.

The "EPI" is not an actual think-tank, but a labor union hack front. There is a STEM shortage, and everyone knows this. The idea of bringing in high-skilled immigrants to Detroit has been an idea I've supported for a long, long time, and I hope it comes through.

**mwilbert** · February-09-14, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitman32

The "EPI" is not an actual think-tank, but a labor union hack front. There is a STEM shortage, and everyone knows this. The idea of bringing in high-skilled immigrants to Detroit has been an idea I've supported for a long, long time, and I hope it comes through.

This is one of those things that "everyone knows" that isn't actually true. If there were a shortage of people with these skills, wages for people with those skills would be rising, which they are not. There is probably some shortage of skilled people in particular engineering disciplines and particular areas of computer science, but there is no generic STEM shortage, and there is a glut of people with chemistry and biology degrees. Most people getting STEM degrees now have to find jobs outside of STEM fields. See, for instance,

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/edu...isis-is-a-myth If you are interested in this topic, this article also has an extensive set of reference for further investigation.

And I say this as someone who is in favor of the immigration proposal.

**Honky Tonk** · February-09-14, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

This is one of those things that "everyone knows" that isn't actually true. If there were a shortage of people with these skills, wages for people with those skills would be rising, which they are not. There is probably some shortage of skilled people in particular engineering disciplines and particular areas of computer science, but there is no generic STEM shortage, and there is a glut of people with chemistry and biology degrees. Most people getting STEM degrees now have to find jobs outside of STEM fields. See, for instance,

http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/edu...isis-is-a-myth If you are interested in this topic, this article also has an extensive set of reference for further investigation.

And I say this as someone who is in favor of the immigration proposal.

I think the issue is people, including those who wrote the article, want to deal in absolutes. Take the term "Engineer" from the term STEM. In certain engineering fields, there probably ARE an abundance of certain types. In other engineering fields, there might be a shortage. I too think Ricky's STEM immigration idea is a good one, but he has to be careful on two accounts. One, that the end result actually benefits Detroit. And two, He doesn't create an overabundance of highly skilled, educated people, on assistance. How to orchestrate all that, AND get them to remain in Detroit proper, is beyond me.