Bus Rapid Transit officials meeting and hoping to move forward

[ghettopalmetto]

We need buses. For the love of God, we just need buses. The real problem I see is that we have people that don't use the mass transit in this region planning the mass transit. YOU HAVE NO CLUE!

Trains on tires! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[casscorridor]

What do you all think of this alternative.

1. Enhance current flagship bus routes [[i.e. Woodward Ave) with incremental improvements to make them easier to use, with buses that come on time and more frequently, and perhaps even improvements such as signaling, dedicated lanes and fare-boxes at major transfer points and busy stops.

2. Commuter rail using the existing Amtramck route to Pontiac with, at the very least, stations at New Center, Fairgrounds, Royal Oak and Birmingham-Troy.

3. Local buses that arrive at commuter rail and light-rail stations on time for passengers to immediately board a bus after exiting the train, and take them to destinations like the many offices along Big Beaver Road or to Downtown Birmingham.

4. Extending M1 Rail to Royal Oak which will allow transfer to buses and commuter rail [[in addition to transfer opportunity at New Center).

This solves the main issues of:
The extremely long length of the route
Negotiating between short trips along the line [[light rail and buses) and longer trips [[commuter rail).

[nain rouge]

I mostly like your plan casscorridor, except I'd rather see major improvements on the bus routes and no light rail than light rail with incremental improvements on bus routes. In my mind, getting the buses working is priority #1. Then worry about light rail [[commuter rail heavily leverages existing infrastructure, so I'm still in favor of that).

I'm sorry, but if you're too good to ride a 24 hour bus from New Center to downtown, you need to get over yourself. Rail is better, but isn't that much better, especially over such short distances.

[That Great Guy]

Maybe Detroit WOULD be a little more like New York City if we'd invest in proper transit. Of course, if you refuse to invest in transit and hand out money for freeways like candy, than the result you get is a sprawled out mess. But it didn't have to be that way. We could've built out smartly instead of as quick as possible.


The last thing we need is to waste money on a new bus system on Woodward. What transit users want right now are buses that arrive frequently throughout the metro area, and the best way to do that is to leverage what we already have.

As it stands, when the buses come on roads like Woodward and Gratiot every 10-15 minutes during peak travel times, it's a very functional system that many people use. But outside of peak travel times, or off of the main avenues, wait times are horrific. And that's the real bottleneck. I want to be able to travel to Southfield Road or Van Dyke or on a mile road without waiting an hour or more.

We need buses. For the love of God, we just need buses. The real problem I see is that we have people that don't use the mass transit in this region planning the mass transit. YOU HAVE NO CLUE!
[/COLOR]

An effective campaign to defeat the August 2014 SMART Property Tax Renewal next August 2014 is what is now needed to improve transportation for everyone in Detroit and inner suburbs.

We have a choice whether we want cap local funding or not.

[professorscott]

An effective campaign to defeat the August 2014 SMART Property Tax Renewal next August 2014 is what is now needed to improve transportation for everyone in Detroit and inner suburbs.

We have a choice whether we want cap local funding or not. There will be no funding cuts for community transit or essential bus service no matter how you cast your vote.

Money talks

The last sentence of this post is unadulterated bullshit. Go to Livonia or Rochester Hills and wait for a bus; tell me how that works for you. If the SMART millage is defeated, SMART service will end, period.

Answering an earlier comment about commuter rail on the Detroit to Pontiac corridor: it's a great idea. The only difficulty is you need permission from whoever owns the tracks. SEMCOG and MDOT have been working on that for the Ann Arbor corridor for, what, six or seven years now, and do not have the permission they need. This takes a long time and can be difficult to impossible when the tracks are actively used for freight movements. But it's worth fighting for.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Hey GhettoPalmetto & NainRouge,
Your arguments are stellar. I no longer support any transit. Congratulations.

[That Great Guy]

The last sentence of this post is unadulterated bullshit. Go to Livonia or Rochester Hills and wait for a bus; tell me how that works for you. If the SMART millage is defeated, SMART service will end, period.

Answering an earlier comment about commuter rail on the Detroit to Pontiac corridor: it's a great idea. The only difficulty is you need permission from whoever owns the tracks. SEMCOG and MDOT have been working on that for the Ann Arbor corridor for, what, six or seven years now, and do not have the permission they need. This takes a long time and can be difficult to impossible when the tracks are actively used for freight movements. But it's worth fighting for.

Cutting funds from SMART or equivalent is against Federal Laws. Thus, a NO vote caps the tax

[EastsideAl]

Answering an earlier comment about commuter rail on the Detroit to Pontiac corridor: it's a great idea. The only difficulty is you need permission from whoever owns the tracks. SEMCOG and MDOT have been working on that for the Ann Arbor corridor for, what, six or seven years now, and do not have the permission they need. This takes a long time and can be difficult to impossible when the tracks are actively used for freight movements. But it's worth fighting for.

Would it be so difficult on the Detroit-Pontiac corridor though? After all, SEMTA [[the precursor of SMART) operated commuter trains on those tracks until 1983. I remember back in high school taking those trains from right next to the Ren Cen [[well, the construction site where it would eventually be) up to Pontiac in a very short time - despite the aging Grand Trunk rolling stock.

As for actual, real, light rail on north Woodward [[instead of slightly-more-Rapid Bus Transit), why do folks think that big median was originally built?

[professorscott]

Would it be so difficult on the Detroit-Pontiac corridor though? After all, SEMTA [[the precursor of SMART) operated commuter trains on those tracks until 1983.

If we had continued to operate the commuter trains in the intervening 31 years, it would be difficult for the freight railways to make us stop. Since we haven't, though, it is very easy; it is their facility and they can decide who uses it and for what.

With regard to your other comment about light rail in the median, there is no question that light rail would physically fit into much of the Woodward corridor if you were able to restrict the number of driving lanes to what it was in the 1920s, which I believe is about the end of when the interurbans ran through Oakland County. Since you can't do that - at least, I can't conceive of how one could convince MDOT to allow it - you don't have the continuous median wide enough for trains and stations.

It's not that light rail on Woodward isn't possible, it's a question of economic practicability. We're going to have enough trouble coming up with the fairly small amount of money to do a couple of BRT lines - just watch - and light rail is a lot more expensive, capital-cost wise. The people planning this stuff just aren't able to figure out a way that we could really pay for light rail on any reasonably expansive scale.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's not that light rail on Woodward isn't possible, it's a question of economic practicability. We're going to have enough trouble coming up with the fairly small amount of money to do a couple of BRT lines - just watch - and light rail is a lot more expensive, capital-cost wise. The people planning this stuff just aren't able to figure out a way that we could really pay for light rail on any reasonably expansive scale.

This is questionable. Anything done "on the cheap" is most likely not going to be "rapid" transit, but an overglorified bus. Building a "true rapid" bus system would cost on the order of light rail to construct. I have the feeling, though, that the RTA is going to cheap-out and present not-even-close-to-rapid-transit. The reasons are outlined in the link:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...erior-to-rail/

One of the big problems with BRT is that it's too easy to strip down. There are too many corners you can cut that save a lot of money and only degrade service a little bit...

...There are a thousand corners like that you can cut that individually may or may not hurt too much, but collectively add up to the difference between BRT and a regular bus.
In the US, BRT creep is a big problem. Generally speaking the main reason American cities opt to build BRT instead of rail is to cut a corner and make it less expensive. Once you've adopted that view of your transit system—that cutting corners to save money is OK—it's too easy to keep going and cut a lot of other corners as well. Once you've made the decision to cheap out and go with BRT rather than rail, then your priorities are clear and the temptation to cheap out in other ways is too strong to pass up.

It happens all the time. The four leading examples of recently-built BRT in the United States are in Boston, Cleveland, Eugene, and Los Angeles. Boston's Silver Line BRT was built with curbside bus lanes like the one on 7th Street in DC, and is perpetually stuck behind car traffic using the lane illegally. Cleveland's Euclid Avenue BRT spends half its time stopped at red lights because it doesn't include signal preemption.

Eugene's EmX BRT doesn't even have its own lane for much of its route. LA's San Fernando Valley Orange Line BRT is probably this country's most successful "rail like" bus line, but even it was forced to repave its running way after barely a year of operation because the originally-constructed running way was substandard. So far, every example of BRT built in the United States has cut at least one extremely damaging corner.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. BRT is sold as a cost-cutting measure, so it only reasons that additional cost-cutting will follow in its implementation. If New York had followed this logic 100 years ago, the subways would have never been built, and people would still be using "rapid" horsecars.

I guess the RTA and SEMCOG are counting on people not knowing that transit ridership took a precipitous drop when streetcars were replaced with buses running the same exact routes. This bustitution was sold the exact same way that folks are shilling for bus "rapid" transit now. We'd be stupid to fall for it twice.

[Hermod]

With regard to your other comment about light rail in the median, there is no question that light rail would physically fit into much of the Woodward corridor if you were able to restrict the number of driving lanes to what it was in the 1920s, which I believe is about the end of when the interurbans ran through Oakland County.

April 25, 1931 was the last day of Detroit-Pontiac interurban service on Woodward. May 31, 1931 the DSR streetcars extended service to Royal oak on the old interurban tracks. Buses took this over in 1947.

[DetroitPlanner]

Would it be so difficult on the Detroit-Pontiac corridor though? After all, SEMTA [[the precursor of SMART) operated commuter trains on those tracks until 1983. I remember back in high school taking those trains from right next to the Ren Cen [[well, the construction site where it would eventually be) up to Pontiac in a very short time - despite the aging Grand Trunk rolling stock.

As for actual, real, light rail on north Woodward [[instead of slightly-more-Rapid Bus Transit), why do folks think that big median was originally built?

Would you want to give up the Dequindre Cut and put the train back in?
There is a building where the old stop was. How do you propose people get downtown? You are not going to get much ridership by stopping the train at Gratiot and making people walk the rest of the way downtown.

[Lowell]

A little set back? I just noticed this resignation.

Paul Hillegonds, chairman of the RTA board, commented on the loss in a statement Tuesday and added that the board would reopen the CEO selection process.


“John has been very engaged in moving the RTA forward from the moment he was offered the position of CEO,” he said. “I am disappointed that John will not be leading the Regional Transit Authority but understand his concern about leaving SMART shortly before an important millage campaign.”

Full article at Freep.com

[Neilr]

Would it be so difficult on the Detroit-Pontiac corridor though? After all, SEMTA [[the precursor of SMART) operated commuter trains on those tracks until 1983. I remember back in high school taking those trains from right next to the Ren Cen [[well, the construction site where it would eventually be) up to Pontiac in a very short time - despite the aging Grand Trunk rolling stock....

My favorite Detroit poster:

[nain rouge]

Hey GhettoPalmetto & NainRouge,
Your arguments are stellar. I no longer support any transit. Congratulations.

Oh, come on, that's a cop out.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't add new transit options when we can't get the operations we already have running effectively. We spend too much time fretting over how to get affluent people to ride the bus when their reasons are completely arbitrary. If Dick and Jane from Royal Oak will only take the Woodward bus if someone slaps the words "rapid transit" on it in fancy paint, then they need to get their heads screwed on tighter.

Meanwhile, poor people are huddled in the cold waiting over an hour for a bus that might break down before it even gets to them.

Only 2 plans interest me: [[1) A complete overhaul and improvement of DDOT and SMART services, or [[2) Light rail throughout the entire metropolitan region.

M1 rail and Woodward BRT are a slap in the face to the rest of the region. Hell, I live near Woodward, and I don't even think it's right. Don't waste people's time and money.

[EastsideAl]

Would you want to give up the Dequindre Cut and put the train back in?
There is a building where the old stop was. How do you propose people get downtown? You are not going to get much ridership by stopping the train at Gratiot and making people walk the rest of the way downtown.

This why I thought that the Dequindre Cut repurposing, cute as it is, was more than a little short-sighted. Along with the removal of the old Union Depot tracks on the west side, this has left us with no train tracks that come directly into the downtown area. That's highly unfortunate in my view, but that was the decision that was made by our planners.

Even so though, a train ending in the Eastern Market area like you mention would still be considerably closer to downtown than the New Center termination point of the Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter line that is already well on its way to becoming a reality. There could be a simple bus connection there, but eventually it could hook up with a Downtown-Eastern Market light rail line, which I've long thought would be a good idea anyway [[and could have some intriguing extensions).

However, the much more likely scenario would be to have the Detroit-Pontiac commuter line take the same routing as Amtrak does on that route, and end up at the New Center station. Already the M-1 Woodward transit line is proposed to connect that station with downtown. Again, far from optimal imo, but you have to make the best of what you've got.

Along with the Ann Arbor/Airport line, and Amtrak, the inclusion of northward-bound commuter rail would make for something of a local transit center there, and may spur more growth in New Center [[ as well as the Cultural Center, and Midtown). And, as mentioned above, the best thing about this is that the commuter rail could likely be reinstated for a fraction of the cost of other proposals - either light rail or the ultimately futile BRT.

[That Great Guy]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...age-vote-delay

Before we can move forward, we must protect all Local, Federal and State funding for SMART and fill up the fare boxes by a majority vote of NO

Or, think to ourselves how good it feels to pay higher local taxes to bail out our Federal and State governments and support Wal-Mart to provide us with more low wage jobs.

Your Choice

Livonia would have lost the large buses anyway even if they opt in due to MDOT cuts in funding and the lack of good paying jobs in the inner ring suburbs to support Detroit residents. So, they can afford garbage being picked up and other essential city services.

[EastsideAl]

Do you actually believe these things you write?

[nain rouge]

That Great Guy was against it before he was for it. Or he was for it before he was against it. Or it could be he is for it and against it?

[professorscott]

That Great Guy was against it before he was for it. Or he was for it before he was against it. Or it could be he is for it and against it?

Ah, so it's a Schrodinger's cat kind of thing! Now I get it! Quantum physics meets public transportation.

[mwilbert]

Some posts may be examples of computer programs attempting to mimic human communication.

[That Great Guy]

Input equals Output. Higher costs and low community transit property taxes and loss of Federal and State revenue sharing equals SMART public bus service reductions

Extract of Letter to SMART

The December 7, 2006 conclusion by the Federal Transit Administration ~ FTA of complaint #DOT 2006-0238 against the November 8, 2005 city of Livonia, MI bus service reductions was a request your organization conduct a more detailed demographic analysis of the population that would be impacted, both positively and negatively, by the changes in question under Chapter III of Circular 4702. This was entirely ignored.

This complaint is an opposition to the funding shift away from an existing need to pay for new freeway expansions, in regard to the basic human rights of everyone.

Also, the known detrimental effects of the natural environment are disregarded with poor planning by your organization, despite your resources to take many corrective actions.

Consequently, the August 2014 SMART property tax renewal should be defeated by a majority vote of NO.

End of Extract

[That Great Guy]

So, DetroitYES posters. What do we have to do to Move Forward to improve mass transit?

[DetroitPlanner]

So, DetroitYES posters. What do we have to do to Move Forward to improve mass transit?

We need to put our money where our mouth is.

Money is the key to end all your woes
Your ups, your downs, your highs and your lows
Won't you tell me the last time that love bought you clothes?
It's like that, and that's the way it is

Bills rise higher every day
We receive much lower pay
I'd rather stay young, go out and play
It's like that, and that's the way it is
Huh!

[royce]

What this region really needs to do is settle on a corridor that we are willing to invest transit dollars into. Since Woodward is our beloved thoroughfare, that's where all of the dollars should go. Leaders in this region need to be more focused on the Woodward corridor. Yeah, it's supposed to be Woodward, but all of this BRT crap has transit dollars going all over the place. Now, I can see BRT along Gratiot to Hall Road, but nothing on Hall Road. Who the hell is going to get on the thing on Hall Road?

Better yet, all transit dollars and all human energy should be focused on building one subway line from Downtown Detroit to Pontiac along Woodward. Case closed. Build the damn thing and force those who want to be apart of the redevelopment of Metro Detroit, not just Detroit, to line up their businesses, residential developments, restaurants, and shops along Woodward. Really, why bother with anything else? Besides, from all I have read, it appears that communities along Woodward seem to be more progressive in wanting better transit. Let's focus our efforts there, period.

BTW1, why in the hell can't we call the RTA, DARTA? The Detroit Area Rapid [[or Regional) Transit Authority sounds better than some non-descript crap. The term RTA says nothing about who we are. Now, SEMTA, that was a good name. Its name signifies who we are.

BTW2, why would BRT, according to the article, veer off on Cass or John R? If the route is a Woodward route, shouldn't it travel all of Woodward? I swear, I thought that was the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That's why we need to focus on one mode of transportation if we're going to get anything to work. My choice: a fully functioning subway serving Downtown Detroit to Pontiac via Woodward.