Detroit Public Transportation: 2014 and beyond.

[DetroitPlanner]

So, how can we save mass transit?

Local Money. Federal funds do not cover operations.

[That Great Guy]

Local Money. Federal funds do not cover operations.

A tax for people who go to topless bars could help pay for bus service?

The BUSt tax

[brizee]

Genius. Pure genius.

-Nov 2014 just came out of NOWHERE! It's not like it's something solid like a date or anything.

-Letting this bozo hand around for 5 months without signing a contract was a bad idea?! Who would have guessed? He plays you, goes back to his day job and makes YOU look like fools.

-There's a lot of issues on the ballot this year. That CERTAINLY isn't the case every single election year ever!

-Public transportation is certainly not an URGENT ABSOLUTE MUST HAVE NEEDS TO IMPROVE IMMEDIATELY issue in this town. Not at all.

You let the same idiots that have been dicking around for 50 years and this is what you get. A system designed for old people who don't want to use transportation anyway.

It'll be 2024 and this place will still be talking about discussing planning to form a committee to maybe do something in a couple of years.

[brizee]

So last week the board vote, unanimously, to not seek funding until November 2016.

Idiots.

Appearantly the Oakland County board reperesentatives wanted to delay searching for a new CEO indefinitely until the legislature puts in an additional 3 million dollars so he can operate for a few years. They were defeated.

Dumbfucks.

Well now this week it comes out the state house wants to defund the RTA this year COMPLETELY.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...nsit-authority

Good call on not asking to be funded for nearly three years. Good goddamn call.

[That Great Guy]

So last week the board vote, unanimously, to not seek funding until November 2016.

Idiots.

Appearantly the Oakland County board reperesentatives wanted to delay searching for a new CEO indefinitely until the legislature puts in an additional 3 million dollars so he can operate for a few years. They were defeated.

Dumbfucks.

Well now this week it comes out the state house wants to defund the RTA this year COMPLETELY.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014022...nsit-authority

Good call on not asking to be funded for nearly three years. Good goddamn call.

Liberation from Federal and State money, you obviously agree to end all existing funds.

So, peace, love, and communism is your answer but not mine or those who fight for freedom of choice for a free market. We can protect state funds from ACT 51 to pay for the handicapped but instead Wayne County will pay for everything because it is those like you who are the majority at this time.

You represent flower power and rainbows, like the majority who only want to pay more and do nothing and this is exacty why mass transit SUCKS in Greater Detroit today.

[ABetterDetroit]

So, peace, love, and communism is your answer but not mine or those who fight for freedom of choice for a free market. We can protect state funds from ACT 51 to pay for the handicapped but instead Wayne County will pay for everything because it is those like you who are the majority at this time.

.

Was not your last idea a 2.5 mill property tax increase? Your "freedom of choice" sounds more like the same extremely divisive ideas that have failed to secure the necessary funding in the past. Besides calling people communist what is a viable funding idea?

[That Great Guy]

Was not your last idea a 2.5 mill property tax increase? Your "freedom of choice" sounds more like the same extremely divisive ideas that have failed to secure the necessary funding in the past. Besides calling people communist what is a viable funding idea?

A Property Tax with a proper set of conditions to put safety first and make the most of our limited transportation tax dollars. Not a donation to build large freeways and more bombs, much like in the former Soviet Union.

Next August, we can vote NO or YES based on the facts.

The large buses in Livonia were paid for using ACT 51 CTF funds from the State fuel tax for all expenses prior to 1995 when SMART passed their first property tax millage.

There is not enough money anymore from fuel taxes, so I helped SMART program their radios and computers to fill up buses and coordinate with DDOT. The result was full buses from June 2003 to November 2006

It is time to make mass transit work today, not wait until 2016

If Mr.Hertel can't get CTF and Federal money to remove cars from I-75 and I-94, then why support him with your YES vote? Unless of course his passengers can pay more maybe?

Telling people that handicapped vans will shut down without your YES vote IS indeed Communism. Most of us know this won't happen but some people still resort to this tactic and in my opinion, it should stop.

Thank you for replying to my post.

the answer is sometimes not A or B but C which is not on the ballot. Thus, actions should be taken like a protest in Lansing after the August vote to stop the public bus service reductions, high costs and tax shifting.

[brizee]

After absorbing the utter shelling transportation took the last few weeks I'd just like vent. First a little at the press, but mainly at the SORRY NO ACCOUNT board that has made up the RTA so far.

The press does such a scattershot inconsistent coverage of transit. We get an info dump every couple of months but that's about it.

According to the enrolling legislation all four counties should be changing one of their board appointees this month. There has been no coverage on potential candidates, and only Washtenaw's representatives have been selected. And we only know because the rinky dink website on SEMCOG.org very quietly updated.

Which is another problem. The common person still doesn't know the RTA and they're not doing anything to change it. A year later WHY are they still buried as a SEMCOG.org footnote?

This is an example of boards complete and utter lack of urgency and aggresision. Whether that's just through aloofness or willfull sabotage as insinuated in the michigannow.org article is unknown.

The Michigan Legislature as it is constructed right now is hostile to both the city of Detroit and the concept of public transportation. Waiting for them to release more funds is a fools errand.

-They let John Hertel dick around and not sign a contract. It was offered in August 13 and he declined in January 14. That is HALF A YEAR they let him string them along. They were not blindsided by this.

-They have money,through various government sources, to at least begin alternative analysis [[although what is the point with the unanimous poison pill against rail? Really?) and draft environmental impacts available back at the start of last year for corridors other than Woodward. Why exactly have they not been getting this necessary background activity done NOW so that when they go to a vote if they do get approved they can hit the ground running?

-It really was imperaitve they get this thing to a vote as soon as possible. As Larry Dilwortch a citizens advisory council illustrates they really risk completely burning and alienating the goodwill and enthusiasm of those who actually want transit the most.

-It's almost like they don't grasp just how bad it is out there. This place doesn't have nothing but time.

[That Great Guy]

After absorbing the utter shelling transportation took the last few weeks I'd just like vent. First a little at the press, but mainly at the SORRY NO ACCOUNT board that has made up the RTA so far.

The press does such a scattershot inconsistent coverage of transit. We get an info dump every couple of months but that's about it.

According to the enrolling legislation all four counties should be changing one of their board appointees this month. There has been no coverage on potential candidates, and only Washtenaw's representatives have been selected. And we only know because the rinky dink website on SEMCOG.org very quietly updated.

Which is another problem. The common person still doesn't know the RTA and they're not doing anything to change it. A year later WHY are they still buried as a SEMCOG.org footnote?

This is an example of boards complete and utter lack of urgency and aggresision. Whether that's just through aloofness or willfull sabotage as insinuated in the michigannow.org article is unknown.

The Michigan Legislature as it is constructed right now is hostile to both the city of Detroit and the concept of public transportation. Waiting for them to release more funds is a fools errand.

-They let John Hertel dick around and not sign a contract. It was offered in August 13 and he declined in January 14. That is HALF A YEAR they let him string them along. They were not blindsided by this.

-They have money,through various government sources, to at least begin alternative analysis [[although what is the point with the unanimous poison pill against rail? Really?) and draft environmental impacts available back at the start of last year for corridors other than Woodward. Why exactly have they not been getting this necessary background activity done NOW so that when they go to a vote if they do get approved they can hit the ground running?

-It really was imperaitve they get this thing to a vote as soon as possible. As Larry Dilwortch a citizens advisory council illustrates they really risk completely burning and alienating the goodwill and enthusiasm of those who actually want transit the most.

-It's almost like they don't grasp just how bad it is out there. This place doesn't have nothing but time.

In 1995, the SMART Property Tax was originally meant to cover a $17 Million budget shortfall.

Since then, it has been raised and there have been bus service reductions all over.

Scare tactics were and are stilled used, so I filed a Civil Rights Act of 1964 against MDOT, SEMCOG and SMART. On paper SMART is in violation of this federal law over the Livonia Opt. Out

If the August vote fails, there will be NO cuts in essential public or community bus service. And SMART supported the tax shifting from mass transit to freeway expansions. They too are against our rights because of handicapped facilities being shut down.

Yet, there is no formal opposition to get the August vote defeated, despite only being capped if you vote NO.

All funding cuts to SMART are against Federal Laws without alterative funds permanently secured first.

[brizee]

Just think, if John Engler wasn't such a hateful cretin this is the system we would be in the middle of right now.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Just think, if John Engler wasn't such a hateful cretin this is the system we would be in the middle of right now.

You do realize Michigan had 155 years of statehood before Engler, and it has now been 12 years since he left office, right? If this were an amazing and affordable option there was a lot of time both before and after Engler's terms to adopt and implement them.

One of our real problems in organizing a transit system is that we are serving too many masters. The local politicians [[yes, the county execs and mayor of Detroit, but also county commissioners, local officials), state legislators [[both the "ideological" ones for and against transit, and the local ones with strong personal preferences and opinions on the specs), the governor, state level transportation officials, federal transportation officials, Congress, SEMCOG, local transit agencies [[DDOT, SMART), Amtrak, transit planners and professors, private property and business owners directly affected by transit plans, and the general public. Every single possible action is a problem for at least one of those groups. It wouldn't be perfect, but a powerful RTA under a strong director, working from a list of short and specific objectives given him by the governor & legislature, would go a long way towards making our transit progress a little faster and more sure-footed.

[brizee]

You do realize Michigan had 155 years of statehood before Engler, and it has now been 12 years since he left office, right?

He vetoed transit authority legislation on his last day in office.

That scarlet letter will not be coming off of him.

[That Great Guy]

The SEMCOG Framework for Action plan was copied from mine first developed in 1995. My regional transit plan was taken off the shelf in June 2003. My plan worked and was affordable and filled up both SMART and DDOT buses and coordinated both SMART and DDOT routes.

The former SMART Middlebelt 285 buses had standing room only because of me posting bus schedules and getting lots of industry support. The buses filled up fast after I took action because I got tired of all the talk and promises from our leaders.

I'm now writing to Mr. Hertel because my plan went back on the shelf in November 2006 with the Livonia Opt. Out. I want to fill up the SMART and DDOT buses again by coordinating my plans with Mr.Hertel and Dan Dirks of DDOT

I know how to configure radios and computers and am a customer of SMART who takes the bus to work. It would be a very smart idea for those who manage our public bus system to listen to their riders.

Detroit put the World on wheels, so I'm sure we can also fill up buses with fare box paying customers to help make the best use of our transportation tax dollars

[That Great Guy]

Just think, if John Engler wasn't such a hateful cretin this is the system we would be in the middle of right now.

WOW Thanks for posting this. This is the plan that was copied from mine first developed in 1995. My regional transit plan was taken off the shelf in June 2003. My plan worked and was affordable and filled up both SMART and DDOT buses and coordinated both SMART and DDOT routes.

The former SMART Middlebelt 285 buses had standing room only because of me posting bus schedules and getting lots of industry support. The buses filled up fast after I took action because I got tired of all the talk and promises from our leaders.

I'm now writing to Mr. Hertel because my plan went back on the shelf in November 2006 with the Livonia Opt. Out. I want to help fill up the SMART and DDOT buses again by coordinating my plans with Mr.Hertel and Dan Dirks of DDOT

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

He vetoed transit authority legislation on his last day in office.

That scarlet letter will not be coming off of him.

I think he sleeps just fine, perceptions of being branded notwithstanding.

No good piece of legislation has rarely ever had only one shot at being passed [[I never read the bill he vetoed, so I don't know if he had good cause or not from my perspective to veto it). I find it weird that under the 8 years of a substantially more liberal successor, who had a legislature that was not quite as conservative as it had been under Engler, a similar plan never developed. It also might be something of a blessing that big transit projects weren't in the middle of being built in the mid to late 2000s; money shriveled up in a big way for nearly a decade in this state, and for all its localities. We don't need a Bloomfield Park Railroad running through metro Detroit.

[That Great Guy]

I think he sleeps just fine, perceptions of being branded notwithstanding.

No good piece of legislation has rarely ever had only one shot at being passed [[I never read the bill he vetoed, so I don't know if he had good cause or not from my perspective to veto it). I find it weird that under the 8 years of a substantially more liberal successor, who had a legislature that was not quite as conservative as it had been under Engler, a similar plan never developed. It also might be something of a blessing that big transit projects weren't in the middle of being built in the mid to late 2000s; money shriveled up in a big way for nearly a decade in this state, and for all its localities. We don't need a Bloomfield Park Railroad running through metro Detroit.

The plan in the pix was grossly incompetent and too costly. That is why we are getting $2 Billion in new freeway expansions. Regional officials did not listen or respond to the public at meetings. I was there and tried to help them.

If my plan stayed off the shelf, there would be 40,000 fewer cars on the roads, no public bus service reductions and the Livonia opt out would have been prevented. I know it is not much what I did but it is more then what Gov. Engler and Gov. Granholm and Gov. Snyder has done, so far.

The Bill that Gov. Engler vetoed was a piece of garbage. If passed, it would have done nothing but raise local taxes to pay for more wild and crazy plans, instead of competent and cost effective plans like mine. The fact is mine came off the shelf and worked but not the SEMCOG Framework for Action as in the pictures posted. So, I will again try to help out SMART, DDOT, MDOT and the TRU to hopefully make mass transit work and get us Moving Forward.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I think a key component of making good public policy is blocking bad public policy. Any transit plan which wastes money, causes needless uncertainty and further political gridlock, or makes plans unrealistic in either scope or specifics actually sets us much further back. As I said earlier, the current RTA is not a very workable organization. It might be better to reformulate that than to proceed with flailing and powerless bureaucracy.

[professorscott]

It might be better to reformulate that than to proceed with flailing and powerless bureaucracy.

It might be better if it were possible, which it is not.

[ABetterDetroit]

Honestly I have no idea, does anyone else have a clue?

The question is.... If one more time you were going to put the house in order so to speak and create a one "entity" like the RTA to manage a four county wide "public transportation system" how much annual budget would it require to get the job done in a reasonable manner? I'm not talking magnetic trains here just a reliable bus system that some other metro areas across the country seem to have but we do not.

[professorscott]

Honestly I have no idea, does anyone else have a clue?

The question is.... If one more time you were going to put the house in order so to speak and create a one "entity" like the RTA to manage a four county wide "public transportation system" how much annual budget would it require to get the job done in a reasonable manner? I'm not talking magnetic trains here just a reliable bus system that some other metro areas across the country seem to have but we do not.

First, cut out Washtenaw County, which has a fine bus system, though admittedly it's not county wide. But that's OK; much of the county is exurban or rural and not really transit-supportive. The densely populated areas, it's pretty reasonable to get around by bus.

For the tri-county, there's no simple answer to your question, because it depends on what you mean by a "reasonable manner". The SMART system works fine, there just aren't nearly enough routes, they don't serve large areas that they ought to be able to serve [[because of opt-outs and budget considerations), and the buses don't come often enough except, arguable, on Woodward and Gratiot.

DDOT doesn't work well at all for a lot of reasons, but I expect Mayor Duggan's folks to turn that around as best they can with their funding the way it is.

The folks who put together the RTA have figured out, at a high level, what it will cost to implement a few somewhat-better bus routes to serve the major corridors. The M-59 route looks silly because it's silly, but you have to pick some east-west corridor in the 'burbs; lots of people need to travel between Oakland and Macomb Counties. There is also a sense of how to put that money together, requiring a vote of the public. If you do that, it relieves the pressure from both DDOT and SMART of having to operate so many buses on the streets the RTA will serve. Not that they won't have to still run routes on Woodward etc., just not quite as often.

So take that, get DDOT in order and double its budget, get rid of "opt out" and beyond that add about 60% to SMART's post-opt-out budget, and you have enough money to operate a fairly decent transit system.

[ABetterDetroit]

So take that, get DDOT in order and double its budget, get rid of "opt out" and beyond that add about 60% to SMART's post-opt-out budget, and you have enough money to operate a fairly decent transit system.

Save me the research how much more do we need? 3 county then?

[That Great Guy]

Save me the research how much more do we need? 3 county then?

An operating budget of $300 Million per year which would require a property tax of about $420 per year on each house OR a full one per cent County Sales tax and not the half percent many people say is enough.

[professorscott]

Save me the research how much more do we need? 3 county then?

When we studied this in detail for the RTCC 2008 report [[which you can still pull off SEMCOG's website) the then-current operating costs for DDOT, SMART and DTC [[PeopleMover) were $293M annually. There have been massive cuts since then; it is much lower now but I couldn't tell you how much. Properly funding the route improvements that were suggested back then to the existing bus systems, plus adding several corridors of higher-capacity bus service [[BRT of some variety) will about double this, $600M per year. Right now we're probably at about $190M, so we need an additional $410M per year, for operating costs.

Plus building BRT will cost capital money; you can compete to get some money from Uncle Sugar for that, but you have to provide some percentage of match. So, from a mile up, let's say $500M of local money to build out some of the projects, assuming a federal match, over the next 10 years, so that's on average $50M a year. So overall we have to add back abour $460M per year in locally raised money in order to get this to work. That only sounds like a lot of money until you look at what every other big-city region in America spends. DC's annual budget for Metro is getting close to $2B.

That will still put us in the lower 50% of cities but at least we'll be in the league.

[DetroitPlanner]

Uncle Sugar has replaced pork projects with 5339 & 5337. I don't think you can expect him to come to the plate with a whole lot more than we get right now.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/MAP...Facilities.pdf
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/MAP...air_Grants.pdf

Local funding cuts have come largely due to the drop in housing values. Local funds are from millages [[or in the case of DDOT, general funds). While housing is increasing in value, this will lag due to Proposal A as property tax revenues cannot increase faster than inflation.

[professorscott]

Uncle Sugar has replaced pork projects with 5339 & 5337. I don't think you can expect him to come to the plate with a whole lot more than we get right now.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/MAP...Facilities.pdf
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/MAP...air_Grants.pdf

Local funding cuts have come largely due to the drop in housing values. Local funds are from millages [[or in the case of DDOT, general funds). While housing is increasing in value, this will lag due to Proposal A as property tax revenues cannot increase faster than inflation.

Our Uncle can still come up with money for good capital projects. Operating-funding-wise, we're on our own. Your comment about property tax revenues is spot on; yet another reason to try to come up with a different funding mechanism.