Population Stagnation in Michigan

[Gistok]

What do you call what the USA is doing over in the middle east and elsewhere now.

Despite what we are being fed through MSM I got a gut feeling things ain't going swimmingly over there. If we are so benevolent why did Saudi nationals take down the WTC. Why are Americanized Chechen youths involved with the Boston Bombings. Why is the NSA using the Boogyman terrorist as an excuse to spy and record activities of American citizens disregarding the Constitution of the US.

Our foreign policy sucks and it's coming home to roost.

I think you need to take that argument over to Non-Detroit Issues...

[Dan Wesson]

Too intense for you? Okay just a reminder of how it got to this point...

The way everyone seems to be throwing around the immigration word is scary. Watch what you wish for...

It's a double edge sword. Look to Europe for guidance.

I will now bow out of this thread.

[ghettopalmetto]

Europe's ethnic identity makes it a poor role model. They cling to the past much more than Americans do. Americans are more accepting of change and other cultures. Yes you do get your occasional redneck or nationalist but they are not running the culture. Here you don't have to hide your religion or creed.

Well, except for the American South, in which case if you're not a Scots-Irish Southern Baptist, you're just as bad as a furriner and not to be trusted.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I like how you mix religion as opposed to ethnicity as descriptions.

So which is it? Christians first and now brown and yellow people?
Or the Sunday people and now the Shinto and Hindu people?
Or maybe the Sunday people and now the Friday people.

You tell me, you're the one who seems to be afraid of the furiners, not me.

Just pointing out how the good Americans feared the Irish Catholics [[for being both Irish and Catholic) and now we seem to fear other new immigrants again.

[poobert]

Detroit itself could certainly benefit from a sizable increase in immigration. After all, the city is half empty. Does anyone with knowledge in this area know what policies can effectively encourage immigration? How did the Bangladeshi community come to settle in Hamtramck?

Hamtramck is cheap and has a long tradition of immigrants - thus the infrastructure of small businesses and groceries and places of worship that the immigrants need. It is extremely affordable and also walkable, not to mention, relatively safe.

Hamtramck isn't Beverly Hills but it generally succeeds where Detroit fails. It isn't overwhelmingly blighted and crime-ridden. There are also the immigrant familial ties there.

Detroit is a tough sell to immigrants. They may often have modest means but don't want to live in a shithole, and need JOBS! People here are talking about jobs in Michigan - what fucking jobs? Michigan's unemployment rate is 9%. Assembly line jobs for the general public are a thing of the past - you need to have an "in."

The immigration we have nowadays is for the medical and engineering fields, and they're not going to live in Detroit. If you want working class immigrants [[which is, I assume, who would be living in Detroit) you need working class jobs. If we had those anymore, Detroit's unemployment rate wouldn't be 18%.

Though I would offer some sort of Homestead Act in SW Detroit and Warrendale and Hamtramck Heights, maybe 8 Mile and Gratiot. The city never seems to follow though with that crap though [[Remember Project 14?) - maybe now that we have a non-senile, competent person in the Mayor's office that will change.

[dadesign]

good news... good news indeed.

[oladub]

Tons of high paying engineering jobs available in Michigan. I'm an engineer and my friends I graduated with are doing great. They have no use for Chicago or NYC since they make cars in Detroit. You know the "iPod" from the last century. I try to tell people to get a STEM degree and you can find a job anywhere. Just my 2 cents. You guys can argue about buses and malls and rat infested apartments in NYC, we will continue to work and make money and spend it in Detroit and not bail out of the area.

Cliffy is making a huge point. Let's not overlook building on the strengths Michigan has. Figure out ways to capitalize on this engineering reservoir for example. Maybe expand on the engineering parts of State universities, make foreign investors more aware of this asset, and advertise low housing costs.

One other strength that comes to mind is upstate recreation. Elliot Lake, Ontario was a good size mining town until its mine shut down. Instead of lapsing into a ghost town, Elliot Lake advertised itself as an affordable retirement community with awesome recreation and a hospital to overtaxed retirees in Toronto. It worked. Elliot Lake went on. I'm thinking that some upstate Michigan cities could do the same. This wouldn't be growth so much as a holding action.

Maybe some others here have some other strengths that could be built on that don't require huge capital investments besides a node of engineers, inexpensive housing, outstanding recreational possibilities, and underutilized infrastructure.

[DetroitPlanner]

Part of Europe's problem was colonialism. Many of people from former European colonies are granted immigration status in their former colonial European states. Many Algerians and Tunisians in France... many Indonesians in the Netherlands, many Pakistanis and Indians in Britain. Many of these immigrants are resented by the majority population... and are still not well received.

From my perspective that is an opportunity not a problem. However I don't come from a homogeneous background like most Europeans do. My limited time in Europe was spent in a place where the sectarian lines were hard [[Ireland). Imagine my surprise when I went to an anglican church in Windsor for a wedding and as a Catholic I was able to follow the entire service. I thought WTF is the fighting about? Oh its about control not religion.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hamtramck is cheap and has a long tradition of immigrants - thus the infrastructure of small businesses and groceries and places of worship that the immigrants need. It is extremely affordable and also walkable, not to mention, relatively safe.

Hamtramck isn't Beverly Hills but it generally succeeds where Detroit fails. It isn't overwhelmingly blighted and crime-ridden. There are also the immigrant familial ties there.

Detroit is a tough sell to immigrants. They may often have modest means but don't want to live in a shithole, and need JOBS! People here are talking about jobs in Michigan - what fucking jobs? Michigan's unemployment rate is 9%. Assembly line jobs for the general public are a thing of the past - you need to have an "in."

The immigration we have nowadays is for the medical and engineering fields, and they're not going to live in Detroit. If you want working class immigrants [[which is, I assume, who would be living in Detroit) you need working class jobs. If we had those anymore, Detroit's unemployment rate wouldn't be 18%.

Though I would offer some sort of Homestead Act in SW Detroit and Warrendale and Hamtramck Heights, maybe 8 Mile and Gratiot. The city never seems to follow though with that crap though [[Remember Project 14?) - maybe now that we have a non-senile, competent person in the Mayor's office that will change.

Central planned economies aren't the only path to vibrant economies. Sometimes immigrants use other paths. Don't close the doors. When you least expect, you may see jobs that weren't created by the chattering class.

[Bham1982]

I agree that immigrants can help Detroit, but it is not a practical solution. The suburbs are cheap, they will all go there, as they do now.

Been to Sterling Heights lately? It's a sprawl version of immigrant diversity. The Poles, Italians and Germans must be out in Macomb Twp. now.

[hortonz]

Instead of blaming Michigan for its' economic woes and population stagnation let's look at it another way. The southern states, contrary to popular belief, did not become boom centers because of their low taxes and anti-union policies. On the contrary, it was the federal government that enabled those states to prosper thanks to gigantic public works projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority that brought cheap electric power to millions of southerners, the Federal Interstate Highway Act that allowed goods to be transported easily and cheaply anywhere in America, and the national defense establishment that used taxpayer dollars to locate defense plants in southern states. The federal government created the Sunbelt by using tax dollars from northern and Midwestern states.

[Wesley Mouch]

Instead of blaming Michigan for its' economic woes and population stagnation let's look at it another way. The southern states, contrary to popular belief, did not become boom centers because of their low taxes and anti-union policies. On the contrary, it was the federal government that enabled those states to prosper thanks to gigantic public works projects like the Tennessee Valley Authority that brought cheap electric power to millions of southerners, the Federal Interstate Highway Act that allowed goods to be transported easily and cheaply anywhere in America, and the national defense establishment that used taxpayer dollars to locate defense plants in southern states. The federal government created the Sunbelt by using tax dollars from northern and Midwestern states.

You make a lot of good points. It is important to look at what's happened from a broader perspective. However like most of life, there's not just one cause for our problems.

The South did benefit from much government investment. The TVA is a great example. This wasn't an effort to supplant the North, but to develop the economy of the agrarian South. To help millions of Americans out of rural poverty. One can see this as similar to the Three Gorges dam in China.

There were other factors, too. For example, the development of Air Conditioning. The South wouldn't have grown as it has without air conditioning. How many corporate executives would live in an Atlanta home without A/C?

And I wouldn't be true to my deep beliefs if I didn't mention that there's little doubt that the import car companies chose the South so they could control with plants without the stultifying legacy thinking of the UAW. The imports have created middle-class jobs at UAW wages and benefits without the UAW. That may not make George Reuther happy, but we don't live to serve the past.

The north did not build the south with our tax money. We did leverage our wealth to invest in rural America. We sold TVA bonds. The TVA pays interest from the money paid to it by corporations. Our national economy expanded itself into the South. It worked.

None of this caused the decline of the Rust Belt, and in particular Michigan. It did provide an alternative for some businesses. So perhaps you can list it as a cause. Where I won't join you is in seeing the development of the rural south as an excuse for the failure of our economy in Detroit and Michigan.

[hortonz]

A number of factors conspired to make Detroit and Michigan into a global industrial powerhouse in the 20th century: a wealth of natural resources and human capital that could be harnessed to meet the demand of the industrial age, a strategic location bordering on four of the five great lakes, and two world wars that impoverished Europe and left the United States the only global power with a functioning industrial economy. I think Detroit and Michigan will once again play an important role in the American economy while places like Atlanta will wither and die once the forces of climate change, resource scarcity and economic and political instability conspire to change the way we live.

[Wesley Mouch]

A number of factors conspired to make Detroit and Michigan into a global industrial powerhouse in the 20th century: a wealth of natural resources and human capital that could be harnessed to meet the demand of the industrial age, a strategic location bordering on four of the five great lakes, and two world wars that impoverished Europe and left the United States the only global power with a functioning industrial economy. I think Detroit and Michigan will once again play an important role in the American economy while places like Atlanta will wither and die once the forces of climate change, resource scarcity and economic and political instability conspire to change the way we live.

It will indeed be interesting to see what the future does bring.

You do cite the major factors the 'conspired' to make Detroit great. Let me add to the list that Detroit was 'new'. America has not found the recipe for sustaining the health of cities as they age and mature. The South may get the benefit of seeing what works with older northern cities before the problems him them big-time. There will be interesting times ahead.

[Novine]

"America has not found the recipe for sustaining the health of cities as they age and mature."

NYC? Boston? Philly? Seems that some of the oldest cities in the US are a lot healthier than some of the cities that aren't nearly as old.

[mwilbert]

NYC? Boston? Philly? Seems that some of the oldest cities in the US are a lot healthier than some of the cities that aren't nearly as old.

Yes. I think in this case age is an unreliable proxy for disinvestment.

[Hermod]

"America has not found the recipe for sustaining the health of cities as they age and mature."

NYC? Boston? Philly? Seems that some of the oldest cities in the US are a lot healthier than some of the cities that aren't nearly as old.

Those three cities are ports and national banking centers.

Detroit just watches most of the ships and cargoes cruise by on their way to somewhere else. Detroit was the center only for local banks. Once the auto became common, downtown Detroit lost its draw.

[Wesley Mouch]

Yes. I think in this case age is an unreliable proxy for disinvestment.

Yes, its not a strong proxy, but do you not see the correlation?

The question here is whether we have setup the right set of policies to allow our cities to mature and not calcify or rot.

I would suggest to you that the reason NYC, Phily, Boston, Chicago are succeeding is not because of how they are structured or run, but because there's just enough cash flow to paper over the structural issues. I've often said that Detroit's problem isn't money. And I believe that. But it certainly is true that if we had enough money, we could 'afford' to ignore our structural issues.