Population Stagnation in Michigan

[Patrick]

I think one of the best ways to understand where Michigan is headed is to live outside the state for a few years. Seems to me that too many people in Michigan are living in a bubble and have a rather one-dimensional view of things. Perhaps a less "provincial" among the local population attitude will help?

In a way, Michigan needs to figure out how to retain its recent college graduates, rather than send them off to Chicago, DC, and the South. How can Michigan compete with all these up and coming places? What can MI offer? Yes, a good economy is crucial [[if you build, will they come?).

[Novine]

Sounds contradictory - we have to keep recent college graduates but anyone who sticks around Michigan and doesn't experience life elsewhere is "provincial"? I think it's good that grads leave Michigan and get some seasoning elsewhere. Too many people in Michigan are stuck in a "provincial" mindset. The real problem is that we can't attract these people to come back to settle down and raise kids.

[Gistok]

Um OK... I'll bite... can someone give me a rational definition of PROVINCIAL? ... as implied in this thread...

What does Chicago, Atlanta or anywhere else [[outside of NYC) offer that we are missing here in Michigan?

Is it our lack of mass-transit that gives us a provincial mindset? Or is it not having enough hipster bars? Or not having enough of the mocha-latte experience?

What life changing force do other cities have that people here in metro Detroit do not?

We watch the same TV... we surf the same internet... so what makes these cosmopolitan places so "enlightened"??

[bibs]

I moved to the St Louis area and drove back to see family and friends in St Clair Shores. Took the Lodge downtown to see the lights on the Motor City Casino, Christmas tree in lobby of the Renaissance Center and the Christmas lights in the Grosse Pointes.
Here are my impressions. I wasn't disappointed with the Christmas light display downtown on in the Pointes. Much to my surprise all the streets lights were out on Jefferson all the way to the city limits and along I-94 too. Wow!The middle class people that saw at the McDonalds and Meijer in St Clair Shores looked like they were all struggling, worn out and tired. I left because I didn't want to be in the economic moshe pit anymore. It's painful being 10 hour away from family and friends but each time I go back it validates that I made the right move.
Why did I leave? A stable job in county goverment. My wife just got a permanent position at a bank after being laid off about six times in six years from permanent and contract position in Michigan and Illinois. The point I'm trying to make is that people go where the jobs are to maximize their income. That's why they move to Texas, Chicago or North Carolina. Think about how many people migrated to Michigan during the 1920's, 30's and 40's. They even came from Poland.

Why did they migrate to Michigan? Because Michigan was producing an unique product that everyone wanted [[the automobile) and was paying good wages? The automobile was the IPOD of the last century. Money was flowing into Michigan like water over Niagara Falls. The Fisher and GM building as well as the Masonic Temple illustrate the tremendous amount of money people had in those days. Stupid money! Michigan needs to produce got to have products and services that people can't get any where else in the world. Only then will the money flow into the state again.

I wish everyone the best in Michigan and I hope Detroit turns itself around.

[Wesley Mouch]

Poo, I see things very differently.

I'm not sure what's surprising here, though. Michigan hasn't done anything to reverse its fortunes.

-Detroit is bankrupt. Hooray. This is the clean slate to help Detroit's citizens. There's NOTHING bad about bankruptcy. It protects everyone from a much worse fate. You think the pension adjustments will hurt -- sure -- but a larger adjustment later would hurt more.

-The state is more undesirable than ever to young people. It is also rapidly aging. Not a good combination... Maybe that's why young people are moving downtown, is it?

-Our infatuation with the auto industry reminds me of the communist bloc states reliance on heavy industry... What infatuation? Auto remains important -- but I see no evidence of infatuation.

-We elected a bunch of scary crack pot Tea Partiers across the state, who rant and rave about homosexuality and Santa Claus. --- and they rant about much, much more. They are entitled to their opinions on those two topics. And I disagree with them. But you are brushing off what I think are valid opinions about how to solve our urban problems. Hint -- its not more money.

-The biggest joke of all is Right to Work. Snyder and his ilk claim that it has worked wonders for the state, despite all evidence to contrary, but refuse to name any company that has relocated to the state or even had interest in the state because of RTW. ... do you really expect a specific firm to relocate just because of RTW? I wouldn't even want a company that relocated for that reason. This is just one of a hundred initiatives that will help make our State a better place. Don't expect one issue to work miracles, and don't expect to see any results tied to this issue. Its just one block in the new foundation. Your argument is nothing but a union talking point to oppose a threat to their revenue stream.

-Only 25% of the population has a degree, compared to 28% nationally. We generally don't give a shit about education here, except in the case of wealthy suburban school districts. I see dumb people. Fucking everywhere. ---- 10% less than national rate is alarming, but what on earth are you talking about.

-Our infrastructure is falling apart and in no part of the state is their comprehensive mass transit or passenger rail. So we're widening I-94 -- which would be investment in infrastructure. Blame Engler for killing DARTA. Sure -- but you might first blame Detroit for running a crappy bus system, and fighting SEMTA/SMART pickups/drop offs in the city to protect their monopoly above helping citizens.

Do the same things and expect different results... I see lots of changes. Some good. Others not so much. But see no change? Then what on earth is everyone so upset about. RTW is a change. You may not like it, but we aren't doing things the same.

[brizee]

52% of the states black population also has their local democracy set on fire thanks to a law they successfully repealed.

It was then forcefully reinstated a month later in the now infamous lame duck.

Despite the koolaid the true believers would have you drink, bankruptcy and emergency managers everygoddamnwhere is NOT attractive or inviting.

[Bham1982]

We watch the same TV... we surf the same internet... so what makes these cosmopolitan places so "enlightened"??

Indiana is actually the fastest growing state in the Great Lakes area, and Illinois is the slowest growing state, so I guess we need to be more sophisticated, like those progressive, worldly, transit-and-bike oriented Hoosiers...

[Cliffy]

How many drunk driving tickets do you have to pay that kind of coin???

Maybe you need to reassess more than your address. You have no right to drive drunk as it impacts dammed near every other person on the road with you. You may see it as morals, I see it as living up to the responsibility to others you agreed to when you applied for a driver's licence.

My brother was a habitual drunk driver among other things. He is now dead from bad decisions. Don't follow his lead.

Good riddance to people like him. Reminds me of the Belle Isle takeover thread where people were bitching that they wouldn't be able to drink out of paper bags and do drugs at night.

[313WX]

Um OK... I'll bite... can someone give me a rational definition of PROVINCIAL? ... as implied in this thread...

A narrow thinking/close-minded/regressive mindset resistant to change, namely due to the lack of experience with other cultures/lifestyles besides the one you're accustomed to [[thus not knowing any better).

[casscorridor]

Population and job growth does not equate a progressive state. I would rather have slow growth but have a more progressive society than fast growth where we can easily steamroll over people and leave them behind if they miss the economic boat.

The south may be growing in terms of population and jobs, but is education and progressive social policies also growing? I know HIV is spreading fast down there due to poverty and lack of health care and education.

We need to set our priorities straight. Quality in economics trumps quanitiy. What good is the growth do us if it's just shitty Wall-Mart and Amway jobs and the social and economic infrastructure of the state is crumbling?

[313WX]

Maybe that's why young people are moving downtown, is it?

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

[poobert]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

Mind = blown.

The voice of our generation. 313WX for Governor.

I think what a lot of the peanut gallery here is missing is that plenty of us with knowledge and technology-based degrees and training can live any number of places [[i.e. so why Michigan) so while jobs are probably the number one reason people relocate somewhere, plenty of us have options that isn't picking cotton in Mississippi or digging ditches in Michigan or whatever Snyder is purporting to make happen here.

There are also different recipes for success and job growth that can include low taxes and a business friendly climate, certainly, but the nation is full of other examples of ways cities can not be Metro Detroit.

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

You guys can be dicks all you want about transit and "hipster bars" but I'll take them over some trailer in Romulus or whatever is expected of me here.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

[maverick1]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

313WX, I am exactly the person you are talking about. Politicians talk about attracting others like me and getting us to stay but all of their moves do the direct opposite. We have friends in other states and cities we're reminded of where we are lacking every time we talk to them.

[Bham1982]

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

Pointing out actual Census data is not "Chicago sucks mantra". I'm just amazed people ignore actual stats and prefer obviously anecdotal perceptions.

The entire Midwest is showing slow growth, and Illinois, [[of which Chicagoland dominates) actually shows the slowest growth, and Indiana [[reactionary Hoosierville, for the most part) shows the highest growth, yet everyone on DYes thinks bike lanes and hipster bars are the keys to population growth and prosperity.

[maverick1]

Mind = blown.

The voice of our generation. 313WX for Governor.

I think what a lot of the peanut gallery here is missing is that plenty of us with knowledge and technology-based degrees and training can live any number of places [[i.e. so why Michigan) so while jobs are probably the number one reason people relocate somewhere, plenty of us have options that isn't picking cotton in Mississippi or digging ditches in Michigan or whatever Snyder is purporting to make happen here.

There are also different recipes for success and job growth that can include low taxes and a business friendly climate, certainly, but the nation is full of other examples of ways cities can not be Metro Detroit.

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

You guys can be dicks all you want about transit and "hipster bars" but I'll take them over some trailer in Romulus or whatever is expected of me here.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

do they honestly believe Chicago sucks? Or is it they know Chicago, DC, NYC, etc. are great cities they loathe because they're successful without following their way of how things should be?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Actually, bike lanes that lead to hipster bars are the key, Bham. I wonder which Midwestern state has the most conservative government and lowest taxes? Oh, INDIANA! And you're right, they are the fastest growing midwestern state.

People on the left see bike lanes and hipster bars as things that lead to economic growth. On the right, we know that they stem from economic growth.

[Bham1982]

do they honestly believe Chicago sucks? Or is it they know Chicago, DC, NYC, etc. are great cities they loathe because they're successful without following their way of how things should be?

Or maybe folks have a more nuanced view than "insert city sucks" and believe that the data show there are other things going on that differentiate cities and states?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't hate any city. I love cities in general. Every city has it's pros and cons, of course. Some are better governed than others. Some have better nightlife. I have never wanted Detroit to become some other city. We are unique. If I had to say I disliked any city, only Boston and LA come to mind, but I dislike them for personality reasons, not for any civic failures.

[Gistok]

OK thanks 313XY... but that definition of Provincialism I already knew...

But if one uses some of these criteria... then folks in Europe are light years ahead of us in many of these same traits... urban living, mass transit... night life, haute couture.

As far as standard of living goes... when my niece got out of college 5 years ago [[a nurse)... here in Michigan she was able to buy a house outright... since metro Detroit home values were so low. In other cities, all I hear about are urban living and that usually means rentals... doesn't some of this living in Chicago or other urban areas preclude folks from buying homes... due to their urban lifestyles... or the über expensive housing prices in NYC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco or Boston??

I would add that places from Texas to the Carolina's don't exactly exude a lot of cosmopolitan behaviors... and outside of the big cities, one can picture a provincialism [[everything from Andy of Mayberry to Deliverance) that makes outstate Michigan seem almost "sophisticated".

So, I'm going to keep an open ear to what folks have to say... but so far I've yet to be convinced that for anything besides a 20something new college grad... that everything outside of Michigan is the promised land...

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Actually, bike lanes that lead to hipster bars are the key, Bham. I wonder which Midwestern state has the most conservative government and lowest taxes? Oh, INDIANA! And you're right, they are the fastest growing midwestern state.

People on the left see bike lanes and hipster bars as things that lead to economic growth. On the right, we know that they stem from economic growth.

Indiana is growing slower than the national average.

http://www.newsandtribune.com/clarkcounty/x1005135164/Hoosier-population-growth-continues-to-lag-behind-U-S

Meanwhile, out here in ultra-blue and progressive California where state policies do not institutionalize the homophobia that Mikey's political idols follow, the growth rate exceeded the national average.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Well, both Mississippi and Alabama have lower unemployment rates than Michigan, Alabama substantially so.

I did not mean to imply that roads independently appear out of nowhere down south. Merely, that the citizenry doesn't use bitching about inadquate government as an excuse to be unproductive. I think a lot of people up here do that.

Lastly, Poobert you have previously informed me- contrary to my own observation- that I am already oppressed here in Michigan. I might as well try the south, right? And I do love a southern drawl...

Isn't Mississippi still dead last in educational attainment? Oh, I forgot, that is a right wing goal.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Isn't Mississippi still dead last in educational attainment? Oh, I forgot, that is a right wing goal.

Gadzooks! WHO TOLD YOU?

[Wesley Mouch]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

And to that I say, good bye. I'd rather replace those depressing people who can't see good opportunity with people who can make lemonade out of lemons. This forum is loaded with depressed people who only see bad. The world, including Detroit and Michigan have a great future. Stagnation is a pejorative term. I think one could just have easily been an optimist and said that Michigan's population is 'stablizing'. After years of decline, 'stagnation' is overdue improvement. I'm glad to see Michigan no longer shrinking. Glad that its now 'stable'. Someday soon it will grow -- for those of us still around.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Well said, WesMouch. I would never have come back to Detroit if I thought it couldn't be brought back. No matter how many times I am told how awful and oppressive and hopeless it is, Detroit does have a bright future. Detroit and Michigan are already substantially improved from just a few years ago. I think most people are resourceful and resilient and capable of improving their lives. Most people will make themselves, and thus the city, a better place. Those who don't want to participate are welcome to not enjoy their lives, or move away. To a place that will seem less-than-satisfactory in short order, I am sure. I, for one, am in it for the long haul.

[Bham1982]

Meanwhile, out here in ultra-blue and progressive California where state policies do not institutionalize the homophobia that Mikey's political idols follow, the growth rate exceeded the national average.

IMO the argument is that such things [[liberal/conservative, urban/sprawl) don't matter as much as claimed. I'm guessing jobs, family, and maybe weather are the biggest factors in population migration.

California sits on the Pacific Rim, and borders Mexico, so gets huge immigration from Asia and Latin America. Tech is currently reaching the height of another boom, also benefitting growth. Weather is also a big draw.