Population Stagnation in Michigan

[renf]

Yesterday the Census Bureau released their state population estimates for 7-1-13. In the interval since the 2010 count, Michigan gained 11,000 residents. Only 3 states grew more slowly. Rhode Island and West Virginia lost population and Maine’s population was essentially stable. Population growth would be a great stimulus for economic growth in Michigan but population growth typically depends upon a growth of jobs. In April 2000, non-farm employment in Michigan was estimated at 4.688 million. It sunk to a low of 3.826 million in March 2010 and has slowly increased to 4.094 million in November, 2013. That means the number of jobs in Michigan is still almost 15 percent below what it was in 2000. The auto industry is doing well but the investments vehicle firms are making imply that production will increase much more rapidly than employment. Agriculture is another booming sector of the state’s economy thanks to NAFTA but labor productivity in farming may be increasing even more rapidly than in manufacturing. Georgia passed Michigan in population last year. North Carolina will pass Michigan next year. Given its resources, it is too bad that Michigan is become a smaller and poorer state.

[Danny]

This is due to more tech jobs in some Michigan cities. Some folks can't leave the state due to their families.

[DetroitPlanner]

Stagnation is actually a huge improvement. The last census showed Michigan to be the only state to lose population. This included LA! Quite a bad decade for us.

Pretty sad state of affairs. A lot of us have ties here we can't or do not want to break. This is what keeps us afloat.

[poobert]

Yesterday the Census Bureau released their state population estimates for 7-1-13. In the interval since the 2010 count, Michigan gained 11,000 residents. Only 3 states grew more slowly. Rhode Island and West Virginia lost population and Maine’s population was essentially stable. Population growth would be a great stimulus for economic growth in Michigan but population growth typically depends upon a growth of jobs. In April 2000, non-farm employment in Michigan was estimated at 4.688 million. It sunk to a low of 3.826 million in March 2010 and has slowly increased to 4.094 million in November, 2013. That means the number of jobs in Michigan is still almost 15 percent below what it was in 2000. The auto industry is doing well but the investments vehicle firms are making imply that production will increase much more rapidly than employment. Agriculture is another booming sector of the state’s economy thanks to NAFTA but labor productivity in farming may be increasing even more rapidly than in manufacturing. Georgia passed Michigan in population last year. North Carolina will pass Michigan next year. Given its resources, it is too bad that Michigan is become a smaller and poorer state.

I'm not sure what's surprising here, though. Michigan hasn't done anything to reverse its fortunes.

-Detroit is bankrupt. Everyone keeps spinning this as a good thing but last I checked, I don't want to go bankrupt. No one does. Sure we want a clean slate in Detroit, but bankruptcy sucks no matter what. The population continues to decline despite small pockets of relative prosperity.

-The state is more undesirable than ever to young people. It is also rapidly aging. Not a good combination.

-Our infatuation with the auto industry reminds me of the communist bloc states reliance on heavy industry. The auto industry is more national and international than ever, and relatively small number of Michiganders are employed by it these days. It's definitely a good thing it is still afloat, but it isn't 1978 anymore. Not only that, plenty of people have no desire to work in the auto industry.

-We elected a bunch of scary crack pot Tea Partiers across the state, who rant and rave about homosexuality and Santa Claus.

-The biggest joke of all is Right to Work. Snyder and his ilk claim that it has worked wonders for the state, despite all evidence to contrary, but refuse to name any company that has relocated to the state or even had interest in the state because of RTW. I'm extremely ambivalent about unions but there is nothing desirable about being a RTW state. My staff are union and I can tell you it is more of a headache than anything. The union can now threaten to sue members who opt out of dues, so it ended up being moot anyway.

-Only 25% of the population has a degree, compared to 28% nationally. We generally don't give a shit about education here, except in the case of wealthy suburban school districts. I see dumb people. Fucking everywhere.

-Our infrastructure is falling apart and in no part of the state is their comprehensive mass transit or passenger rail. So we're widening I-94.

Do the same things and expect different results...

[compn]

-Only 25% of the population has a degree, compared to 28% nationally. We generally don't give a shit about education here, except in the case of wealthy suburban school districts. I see dumb people. Fucking everywhere.

we care about edumacashun. remember michigun banned affirmative action?

we r smarter now.

[Wesley Mouch]

Poo, I see things very differently.

I'm not sure what's surprising here, though. Michigan hasn't done anything to reverse its fortunes.

-Detroit is bankrupt. Hooray. This is the clean slate to help Detroit's citizens. There's NOTHING bad about bankruptcy. It protects everyone from a much worse fate. You think the pension adjustments will hurt -- sure -- but a larger adjustment later would hurt more.

-The state is more undesirable than ever to young people. It is also rapidly aging. Not a good combination... Maybe that's why young people are moving downtown, is it?

-Our infatuation with the auto industry reminds me of the communist bloc states reliance on heavy industry... What infatuation? Auto remains important -- but I see no evidence of infatuation.

-We elected a bunch of scary crack pot Tea Partiers across the state, who rant and rave about homosexuality and Santa Claus. --- and they rant about much, much more. They are entitled to their opinions on those two topics. And I disagree with them. But you are brushing off what I think are valid opinions about how to solve our urban problems. Hint -- its not more money.

-The biggest joke of all is Right to Work. Snyder and his ilk claim that it has worked wonders for the state, despite all evidence to contrary, but refuse to name any company that has relocated to the state or even had interest in the state because of RTW. ... do you really expect a specific firm to relocate just because of RTW? I wouldn't even want a company that relocated for that reason. This is just one of a hundred initiatives that will help make our State a better place. Don't expect one issue to work miracles, and don't expect to see any results tied to this issue. Its just one block in the new foundation. Your argument is nothing but a union talking point to oppose a threat to their revenue stream.

-Only 25% of the population has a degree, compared to 28% nationally. We generally don't give a shit about education here, except in the case of wealthy suburban school districts. I see dumb people. Fucking everywhere. ---- 10% less than national rate is alarming, but what on earth are you talking about.

-Our infrastructure is falling apart and in no part of the state is their comprehensive mass transit or passenger rail. So we're widening I-94 -- which would be investment in infrastructure. Blame Engler for killing DARTA. Sure -- but you might first blame Detroit for running a crappy bus system, and fighting SEMTA/SMART pickups/drop offs in the city to protect their monopoly above helping citizens.

Do the same things and expect different results... I see lots of changes. Some good. Others not so much. But see no change? Then what on earth is everyone so upset about. RTW is a change. You may not like it, but we aren't doing things the same.

[313WX]

Maybe that's why young people are moving downtown, is it?

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

[poobert]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

Mind = blown.

The voice of our generation. 313WX for Governor.

I think what a lot of the peanut gallery here is missing is that plenty of us with knowledge and technology-based degrees and training can live any number of places [[i.e. so why Michigan) so while jobs are probably the number one reason people relocate somewhere, plenty of us have options that isn't picking cotton in Mississippi or digging ditches in Michigan or whatever Snyder is purporting to make happen here.

There are also different recipes for success and job growth that can include low taxes and a business friendly climate, certainly, but the nation is full of other examples of ways cities can not be Metro Detroit.

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

You guys can be dicks all you want about transit and "hipster bars" but I'll take them over some trailer in Romulus or whatever is expected of me here.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

[Bham1982]

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

Pointing out actual Census data is not "Chicago sucks mantra". I'm just amazed people ignore actual stats and prefer obviously anecdotal perceptions.

The entire Midwest is showing slow growth, and Illinois, [[of which Chicagoland dominates) actually shows the slowest growth, and Indiana [[reactionary Hoosierville, for the most part) shows the highest growth, yet everyone on DYes thinks bike lanes and hipster bars are the keys to population growth and prosperity.

[maverick1]

Mind = blown.

The voice of our generation. 313WX for Governor.

I think what a lot of the peanut gallery here is missing is that plenty of us with knowledge and technology-based degrees and training can live any number of places [[i.e. so why Michigan) so while jobs are probably the number one reason people relocate somewhere, plenty of us have options that isn't picking cotton in Mississippi or digging ditches in Michigan or whatever Snyder is purporting to make happen here.

There are also different recipes for success and job growth that can include low taxes and a business friendly climate, certainly, but the nation is full of other examples of ways cities can not be Metro Detroit.

Predictably, Bham trotted out the whole Chicago sucks mantra, which there is some truth to. However Chicago's relative success and functionality is due ot the fact that people do want to live there for the environment, even if job and population is stagnant. Last I checked home prices in Chicago's many middle class and yuppie neighborhoods exceed that of most of our allegedly tony suburbs.

You guys can be dicks all you want about transit and "hipster bars" but I'll take them over some trailer in Romulus or whatever is expected of me here.

Bankruptcy of our state's largest city is a good thing? Yeah, I remember a time when I couldn't pay my bills, it was freaking awesome.

do they honestly believe Chicago sucks? Or is it they know Chicago, DC, NYC, etc. are great cities they loathe because they're successful without following their way of how things should be?

[maverick1]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

313WX, I am exactly the person you are talking about. Politicians talk about attracting others like me and getting us to stay but all of their moves do the direct opposite. We have friends in other states and cities we're reminded of where we are lacking every time we talk to them.

[Wesley Mouch]

So people decide to live in the best looking home on a block of nothing but dilapitated homes. It still doesn't mean the best looking home isn't dilapitated.

These young people have called Michigan their home for much of their lives, and this is where all of their loved ones still live. The last thing they would want to do is leave a place that's familiar to them.

So despite how much is lacking in Michigan for them, they're trying to make the best of the situation with the limited resources they have, hoping things will get better [[despite a conservative-leaning government, a lack of good-paying jobs, falling wages and a state/region that's shrinking in population).

However, don't believe for a second that these young people aren't having 2nd thoughts about staying themselves when the state government has done nothing to prove to them that good paying jobs [[unemployment rate has remained steady during Snyder's terms) will soon be created, the state government is absolutely hostile to some of their political views [[the feet dragging on homosexuality, passing RTW, etc.), and the best you can offer them for city life is either a small college town or a bankrupt/declining major city where most people who live outside of said city make it a cultural phenomenom to bash said city.

And to that I say, good bye. I'd rather replace those depressing people who can't see good opportunity with people who can make lemonade out of lemons. This forum is loaded with depressed people who only see bad. The world, including Detroit and Michigan have a great future. Stagnation is a pejorative term. I think one could just have easily been an optimist and said that Michigan's population is 'stablizing'. After years of decline, 'stagnation' is overdue improvement. I'm glad to see Michigan no longer shrinking. Glad that its now 'stable'. Someday soon it will grow -- for those of us still around.

[poobert]

And to that I say, good bye. I'd rather replace those depressing people who can't see good opportunity with people who can make lemonade out of lemons. This forum is loaded with depressed people who only see bad. The world, including Detroit and Michigan have a great future. Stagnation is a pejorative term. I think one could just have easily been an optimist and said that Michigan's population is 'stablizing'. After years of decline, 'stagnation' is overdue improvement. I'm glad to see Michigan no longer shrinking. Glad that its now 'stable'. Someday soon it will grow -- for those of us still around.

Where can I get a pair of those rose colored glasses? Do they give them out free when you're discharged from the nut house?

Mikey is right though, the Tea Party has been hard at work with new ideas to make Michigan better:
http://www.equalitymi.org/media-cent...signed-further

Man, you right wingers really do know better.

[Baselinepunk]

^^^^^^ Excellent post!

[313WX]

^^^^^^ Excellent post!

^^^^^^Seconded.

Detroit and Michigan's best days are behind it. For some, that may not be a bad thing. And in fact, that doesn't Detroit and Michigan can't be OK places to live/visit in the future.

That said, the bread and butter [[Auto Industry) that made our city and state great in the past has been absolutely decimated and globalized. So what we're experiencing presently is an economic and social correction in the wake of its local collapse from a place that was once very wealthy/progressive to a place that's very poor/regressive. It really sucks the most for those who are living through this transition period during the prime years [[20s/30s) of their lives, because there's nothing that can be done about this besides adaption.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I don't understand. Why are the low tax states growing? Don't the people moving there miss the services their money buys?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Poobert, did you know that the Tea Party is much more prevalent in these rapidly growing southern states? Those states have very low rates of unionization, and are all, in fact, Right to Work states. Beyond the low taxes, fewer regulations, and blissfully weak unions, though, there is an ideological difference in the southern states. Here, many people gripe about the lack of adequate central planning for education, transit, roads, etc. Down there, people just go about their business.

[poobert]

Poobert, did you know that the Tea Party is much more prevalent in these rapidly growing southern states? Those states have very low rates of unionization, and are all, in fact, Right to Work states. Beyond the low taxes, fewer regulations, and blissfully weak unions, though, there is an ideological difference in the southern states. Here, many people gripe about the lack of adequate central planning for education, transit, roads, etc. Down there, people just go about their business.

I know, I've been to Alabama and Mississippi, they're positively booming.

I was not, however, aware they did not have "central planning" for roads. They build their own, huh? You learn something new every day.

Good luck being gay in Mississippi, by the way, when you decide to move to that economic paradise.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

I know, I've been to Alabama and Mississippi, they're positively booming.

I was not, however, aware they did not have "central planning" for roads. They build their own, huh? You learn something new every day.

Good luck being gay in Mississippi, by the way, when you decide to move to that economic paradise.

Well, both Mississippi and Alabama have lower unemployment rates than Michigan, Alabama substantially so.

I did not mean to imply that roads independently appear out of nowhere down south. Merely, that the citizenry doesn't use bitching about inadquate government as an excuse to be unproductive. I think a lot of people up here do that.

Lastly, Poobert you have previously informed me- contrary to my own observation- that I am already oppressed here in Michigan. I might as well try the south, right? And I do love a southern drawl...

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Well, both Mississippi and Alabama have lower unemployment rates than Michigan, Alabama substantially so.

I did not mean to imply that roads independently appear out of nowhere down south. Merely, that the citizenry doesn't use bitching about inadquate government as an excuse to be unproductive. I think a lot of people up here do that.

Lastly, Poobert you have previously informed me- contrary to my own observation- that I am already oppressed here in Michigan. I might as well try the south, right? And I do love a southern drawl...

Isn't Mississippi still dead last in educational attainment? Oh, I forgot, that is a right wing goal.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Isn't Mississippi still dead last in educational attainment? Oh, I forgot, that is a right wing goal.

Gadzooks! WHO TOLD YOU?

[Hermod]

North of the Bay City-Midland-Muskegon line, the state has been losing population since 1920 as the extraction industries [[mining, quarrying, and forest products) declined.

[rex]

I cant wait to leave. Started working on a network security graduate classes a year and a semester ago. Makes no sense to quit now... I'm almost done. Take my certs and degrees and be on my way. 8 years ago they jammed me with 5K in drivers responsibility fees. They were bleeding $$$ and manufactured creative new ways to screw people. I was one of em. Plus I don't trust recent Michigan politics. That lame duck shit was fuct. There are people out there with religious/conservative moral convictions I want nothing to do with, unfortunately they like to force their morals on everybody else when they should mind their damn business. I feel like these fuckwits have gained traction here lately. My entire adult life this place has been in recession. It sucks. When i was a kid I liked Detroit mostly because it was lawless. I could do and did whatever i wanted. Not a kid anymore. I live in a boring suburb and have no biz in the city except a few restaurants and the occasional show or ballgame.

[illwill]

I cant wait to leave. Started working on a network security graduate classes a year and a semester ago. Makes no sense to quit now... I'm almost done. Take my certs and degrees and be on my way. 8 years ago they jammed me with 5K in drivers responsibility fees. They were bleeding $$$ and manufactured creative new ways to screw people. I was one of em. Plus I don't trust recent Michigan politics. That lame duck shit was fuct. There are people out there with religious/conservative moral convictions I want nothing to do with, unfortunately they like to force their morals on everybody else when they should mind their damn business. I feel like these fuckwits have gained traction here lately. My entire adult life this place has been in recession. It sucks. When i was a kid I liked Detroit mostly because it was lawless. I could do and did whatever i wanted. Not a kid anymore. I live in a boring suburb and have no biz in the city except a few restaurants and the occasional show or ballgame.

Your reasoning is EXACTLY why cities such as Chicago, Toronto, Minneapolis and Ann Arbor are popular destinations among young & older professionals seeking a progressive urban lifestyle. And for those who want a slice of the "gritty life", Chicago especially, is in fact a very edgy city for those who are wanting that "lawless lifestyle" as you put it. Just read the newspapers or watch the 6 o'clock news. Crazy wild city!

Most people that are able to afford a high-quality lifestyle; one that offers vibrant-walkable neighborhoods, excellent city services, clean graffiti-less buildings, culture, nightlife, public transportation etc... will continue to see those cities as some of the few areas in the Great Lakes Region that offer a high-level quality of lifestyle.

I appreciate the way Detroit embraces its "realness, edginess, gritty-thing" but in fact, the people with money, college degrees, families etc... aren't buying it. We need to clean up these buildings, curb crime and make Detroit a city that's CLEAN and not catered to people who come here on the weekends to party but for people who actually live here. Forget keeping it real! Nightclubs and all those good things are exciting but it's the people and neighborhood density that makes cities vibrant.

[DetroitPlanner]

8 years ago they jammed me with 5K in drivers responsibility fees.

How many drunk driving tickets do you have to pay that kind of coin???

Maybe you need to reassess more than your address. You have no right to drive drunk as it impacts dammed near every other person on the road with you. You may see it as morals, I see it as living up to the responsibility to others you agreed to when you applied for a driver's licence.

My brother was a habitual drunk driver among other things. He is now dead from bad decisions. Don't follow his lead.