Oh no! Say it ain't so... Detroit ain't gonna make without Casino money?

[Dan Wesson]

This ain't good at all.

“Casino revenue is the single most stable source of revenue available to the city,” Orr testified Wednesday in a hearing before U.S. bankruptcy Judge Steven Rhodes.

“Without it,” he added, “the city couldn’t operate.”

Ripped from the Free press the above quote describes the dire situation Detroit finds itself in even after all debt is vacated.

Casinos were fine at one time but it tain't no more.

The market is maturing and saturated. Then the latecomers want what's left of the pie.

Gambling produces nothing substantial, it's just another redistributing scheme.

[gazhekwe]

Welcome to Atlantic City's pain.

[Zacha341]

Precisely! Gambling is down from what I have read and hear from the folks I know who used to gamble heavy or moderately, who admit to it. I visited two Detroit casinos about two weeks ago and I could see the change from when I used to play [[pay). Thankfully, I have given up gambling as I witnessed the construct depreciate on every level [[payouts, food quality, perks, rewards card benefits) etc.

Aside from the card games, the gaming commission has turned down the percentages of payout on the digital slots and other controllable gambling devices. This is allowable within gaming law I understand. BOTTOM LINE: CASINO GAMBLING is a loosing game [[sic), with little gain for any municipality directly involved or downstream hoping to receive any residual profits which are clearly dwindling.

Welcome to Atlantic City's pain.

[Jimaz]

This ain't good at all.

“Casino revenue is the single most stable source of revenue available to the city,” Orr testified Wednesday in a hearing before U.S. bankruptcy Judge Steven Rhodes.

“Without it,” he added, “the city couldn’t operate.”
...
The market is maturing and saturated. Then the latecomers want what's left of the pie.

Gambling produces nothing substantial, it's just another redistributing scheme.

Agreed. I suppose that technically qualifies Detroit itself as a "professional gambler."

That quote came from yesterday's Brian Dickerson: Detroit has gone from being the Motor City to being the Casino City. Today's Lower casino revenues could mean dwindling jackpot for Detroit shows a graphic indicating how the revenue has been leveling off.

It raises the question of where Detroit would be today if the casinos were never allowed in the first place. [[I was against them in Detroit although I've played at all three.)

[Chicago48]

Agreed. I suppose that technically qualifies Detroit itself as a "professional gambler."

That quote came from yesterday's Brian Dickerson: Detroit has gone from being the Motor City to being the Casino City. Today's Lower casino revenues could mean dwindling jackpot for Detroit shows a graphic indicating how the revenue has been leveling off.

It raises the question of where Detroit would be today if the casinos were never allowed in the first place. [[I was against them in Detroit although I've played at all three.)

Detroit will probably do like NJ and enter sports betting and online betting.

[renf]

I believe I recall reading in a Citizen's Research Council report about the
city's finances that Detroit, in recent years, obtained about 31 percent
of its general fund revenues from the 10.9% tax on gambling revenues.
Anyway you want to look at it, the tax base in Detroit is far too small
to support the services a city of 700,000 needs. There are other Michigan
cities and school districts in a similar financial state. Sooner or later, the
state's leaders need to address how we finance local governments and
schools.

[Dan Wesson]

Deficit Spending has allowed governments to become outsized compared to the private sector. Where once upon a time the government had to exist on tax revenues created by the private sector that relationship no longer exists.
With the acceptance of deficit spending by government, the public sector has outgrown the the private sector.

Unable to collect enough taxes from the populace and business, governments find it necessary to borrow from the future.

This has allowed government to escape the limiting factors concerning costs and revenues that would put the private sector out of business.
It has also allowed government to assume the role of parasite... smothering the life out of the proverbial host.

[Gistok]

Nothing at all surprising in the above articles... yes Detroit depends on casino profits... we've known that since they came online. And when one considers the increased competition in Ohio and Indiana... the 4 percent drop in revenue since 2011 is really surprisingly small.

[KOMPOST]

No, no, there has to be some sort of a mistake.
I was promised that the 3 casinos would be the savior of this fair city. This promise came complete with space age renderings on the front page both major papers of what these wonderful casinos would look like.
Archer swore it.
He even used the word "synergy". Many, many times.
So, obviously there is some mistake.

[Zacha341]

Well in a way we have a 'synergy' of sorts: A synergism of increased poverty and dissipation as an outworking of several factors [[reckless gambling, dwindling economy, sub-prime lending, drugs, crime, declining population, etc.).

Forward thinking back during the early debate re. the 'salvation' factor, I knew casino gaming [[government enshrined gambling) would be a disaster for the city of Detroit, if not quickly, incrementally. I voted NO at every instance I could only to fall into the trap of gambling myself [[recovered casino gambler 5+ years and counting).

My own [[thankfully short) dissipation into casino gambling only reaffirmed IMO why casinos are buckets of smoke - the chasing therein. Able in some case to capture people who'd have never considered said behaviors otherwise. Gambling - the lure of easy money - initially seems so reasonable and workable: so promising.

I got out before doing any major fiscal harm to myself or my family.

Now how does the city of Detroit get out?

No, no, there has to be some sort of a mistake.
I was promised that the 3 casinos would be the savior of this fair city. This promise came complete with space age renderings on the front page both major papers of what these wonderful casinos would look like.
Archer swore it.
He even used the word "synergy". Many, many times.
So, obviously there is some mistake.

[Gistok]

LOL... hehehe Kompost... I agree... they had promised something like 12,000 jobs [[or more)... but they're down to about 7,000. And remember those 800 room hotels in the original plans? However the hotel room counts were reduced to keep other hotels downtown from going belly up via the competition.

But I do remember Steve Wynn's MARQUESSA... a massive $800 million casino that looked like a huge MCS style building [[the hotel) but in a French Belle Epoque design with a huge greenhouse atrium. Lots of mansard roofs in that beautiful design. But alas Wynn wouldn't play by the "get a local investor" gameplan... and his casino was therefore rejected.

[renf]

Let's give the casinos some credit for the revitalization of downtown Detroit.
Fifteen years ago many people were reluctant to visit downtown because of
crime issues. The casinos are one reason there has been a change in the image of downtown Detroit. You could argue that the new stadia, some increases in employment, the shift of GM to the Ren Center play a larger role but the casinos should get some credit.
I believe that each of the three casinos are among the 12 largest private sectors employers in the city of Detroit.
At one time the city income tax was 3%. The state insisted that it be lowered to 2%. As part of the negotiations of the city and state, casino
revenues were used to replace the revenue lost from the lower city income
tax rate. The city income tax rate was cut to 2.4%, at least in part because of casino revenues. If casino revenues ever boom, the city income tax rate may fall to a lower level.

[Hamtragedy]

If the market is indeed saturated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute, then we all know the next step:

Amsterdam.

Red Light district, legalized prostitution and all. Weed cafe's, edibles, hash, you name it. Tax the hell out of all of it. Someone else is gonna do it eventually, we might as well capitalize on it first.

Laugh all you want, but imagine a Red Light District this upcoming week, with the Winter Blast, Hockey fans from all over, etc. Tell me we wouldn't add a substantial amount to city coffers, not to mention marketing.

[Hypestyles]

If the market is indeed saturated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute, then we all know the next step:

Amsterdam.

Red Light district, legalized prostitution and all. Weed cafe's, edibles, hash, you name it. Tax the hell out of all of it. Someone else is gonna do it eventually, we might as well capitalize on it first.

Laugh all you want, but imagine a Red Light District this upcoming week, with the Winter Blast, Hockey fans from all over, etc. Tell me we wouldn't add a substantial amount to city coffers, not to mention marketing.

I'd support it, but you'd have the local religious class and "traditional" civil-rights types campaigning against it, since no one is proposing this for [[fill in the blank: bloomfield, grosse pointes, etc.)

[Zacha341]

Heaven help us from such traditional types and their pals...... But I digress.

To your larger point [[I think and hope - smile), yeah, how's about starting those red light 'districts' in satellite areas thru out the tri-counties. Could not other cities and counties benefit from an infusion of fast money?

I recall years back asking a suburban co-worker why casinos need only be in Detroit. His response was "Well, Detroit's already a 'dump' so why not?!"

Now we're really ready [[dumpier?) for ANYTHING to generate revenue? GREAT!

I'd support it, but you'd have the local religious class and "traditional" civil-rights types campaigning against it, since no one is proposing this for [[fill in the blank: bloomfield, grosse pointes, etc.)

[401don]

If the market is indeed saturated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute, then we all know the next step:

Amsterdam.

Red Light district, legalized prostitution and all. Weed cafe's, edibles, hash, you name it. Tax the hell out of all of it. Someone else is gonna do it eventually, we might as well capitalize on it first.

Laugh all you want, but imagine a Red Light District this upcoming week, with the Winter Blast, Hockey fans from all over, etc. Tell me we wouldn't add a substantial amount to city coffers, not to mention marketing.

Too many problems like -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RnqTTNO3nI

[DetroitPlanner]

If the market is indeed saturated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute, then we all know the next step:

Amsterdam.

Red Light district, legalized prostitution and all. Weed cafe's, edibles, hash, you name it. Tax the hell out of all of it. Someone else is gonna do it eventually, we might as well capitalize on it first.

Laugh all you want, but imagine a Red Light District this upcoming week, with the Winter Blast, Hockey fans from all over, etc. Tell me we wouldn't add a substantial amount to city coffers, not to mention marketing.

Toronto is debating this right now. I blame it on all of their politicians always being in drunken stupors and smoking crack.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011...s.html#article

[Gannon]

Toronto is debating this right now. I blame it on all of their politicians always being in drunken stupors and smoking crack.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011...s.html#article

Rob Ford is not alone in his indulgences...he is merely more honest about 'em.

[Zacha341]

You present a wonderfully pragmatic point. So, yep, let us go on down this road and see how that plays out in about three to five years.

Can we start this eh' 'district' your neighborhood first......?

If the market is indeed saturated, which I wouldn't doubt for a minute, then we all know the next step:

Amsterdam.

Red Light district, legalized prostitution and all. Weed cafe's, edibles, hash, you name it. Tax the hell out of all of it. Someone else is gonna do it eventually, we might as well capitalize on it first.

[401don]

It will be interesting to see what Dan Gilbert does to improve Greektown's fortunes. Some of the problem stems from location [[it's not as easy for the high rollers to park, get in/out) which is why he has just improved the valet parking. Much of it though is due to the multi-level historic design. Gilbert, like most of us, wants to see it open to the street more with bigger windows and better entrances. This however goes against the fortress design of successful casinos. His Cleveland casino incorporates some of these features but it doesn't have any downtown competition.

[maverick1]

I'm not sure if I'm on or off topic but what happened to the 3 casinos being located next to each other? I think I remember property at the riverfront being cleared for them also.

[Gistok]

I'm not sure if I'm on or off topic but what happened to the 3 casinos being located next to each other? I think I remember property at the riverfront being cleared for them also.

That was what is know as "Archer's Folly"... former Mayor Archer's plans to locate all 3 of the casinos on the riverfront resulted in absurdly excessive money demands for buying land at the riverfront site... the city was hoping to get the entire site for $150 million, which the casinos were going to pony up. Well they only got as far as about 1/3 of the land area for the $150 million set aside, so Archer saw that this wasn't going to happen, and then told the casinos to go find their own sites... which is what we have today.

The plus side is that some very greedy landowners were holdouts stuck with their land... but unfortunately the downside was that the east riverfront was decimated of viable business that closed up when demolition was imminent...

[downtownguy]

That was what is know as "Archer's Folly"... former Mayor Archer's plans to locate all 3 of the casinos on the riverfront resulted in absurdly excessive money demands for buying land at the riverfront site.

The restaurants, pubs and clubs in Rivertown were second to Greektown as Detroit's entertainment district. It was always hopping on weekends, and held up well during the week, too.

What is absurd is that Archer used the excuse that speculators had already driven up the price of land that the casinos originally had been looking at. So, he decides instead to move them down to the area of greatest potential for any other development, the riverfront. To quote Speaker of the House Boehner, "Are you kidding me??"

When that debacle was over, Greektown said they would move to land they owned at St. Antoine and Gratiot, the site of Ficano's jail folly. But eventually, they opted to stay in Trapper's Alley. Now that Gilbert controls Greektown Casino, and will likely take the jail site off the county's hands, I would love to see him return to those original plans. It would connect the stadia area to Monroe Street quite nicely.

[canuck]

Montreal's red light district is a pale copy of what it once was but on the other hand, massage parlors have sprouted in every part of the city. Some of them have been known to hand bills for insurance purposes as legitimate therapeutic massage givers. I find the whole prostitution thing very sad. Chances are now that prostitution in Canada is not illegal, the pimps will find other coercive measures to fit the bill.

[Bham1982]

Greektown Casino has never made money and should close. The layout and location are unworkable. The other two have always been fine financially.