Austin Points The Way: More Freeways AREN'T the Answer to Traffic

[nain rouge]

As American cities go, Austin, Texas is one of the great success stories. It's lauded for its vibrant creative culture, has low unemployment, and is exploding population.

Austin also has - believe it or not - only one freeway running through the city. With the suburbs filling up along with the city, rush hour gridlock has become a serious, serious problem.

The conventional answer is to build more freeways. But according to researchers at Texas A&M, even if you were to build more freeways in Austin, traffic will still slow to an absolute standstill at peak times.

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't live in McMansion Sprawville and have fast commutes.

Don't believe me? Read the NPR piece:http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757...traffic-tangle

[Wesley Mouch]

As American cities go, Austin, Texas is one of the great success stories. It's lauded for its vibrant creative culture, has low unemployment, and is exploding population.

Austin also has - believe it or not - only one freeway running through the city. With the suburbs filling up along with the city, rush hour gridlock has become a serious, serious problem.

The conventional answer is to build more freeways. But according to researchers at Texas A&M, even if you were to build more freeways in Austin, traffic will still slow to an absolute standstill at peak times.

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

Turns out you can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't live in McMansion Sprawville and have fast commutes.

Don't believe me? Read the NPR piece:http://www.npr.org/2013/12/17/248757...traffic-tangle

Amen. For all my arguing for 94 improvements, I believe that this is true. There's little point in trying to eliminate congestion. All you can do is build reasonable roads and freeways, and let it happen. And once you have real congestion -- the likes of which Detroit hasn't seen for 50 years -- the demand for public transit will grow.

[nain rouge]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

[Wesley Mouch]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

Absolutely. But one should at least maximize what you have already invested in.

[nain rouge]

Well, if you want to talk about maximizing prior investments, there's that little city called Detroit. And if we filled in some of those empty spaces again, it'd probably fix things a lot more than billion dollar freeway lanes.

[DetroitPlanner]

There's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to freeways that people don't get. I recently had the unfortunate displeasure of driving from 9 Mile to Flint on a recent Friday evening, and I couldn't believe how long the traffic jam on I-75 was. It was backed up or extremely slow from 9 Mile to Holly, Michigan. Only after Holly was going over 50 MPH even an option.

In this scenario, say you add another lane or two north of Great Lakes Crossing. All you do is encourage a few more subdivisions in Independence Township, and the whole mess starts all over again.

Maybe you should have taken Dixie instead of contributing to the congestion on the road you hate?

[That Great Guy]

Voting NO for all transportation tax increases is the only way to stop the vast freeway expansions in greater Detroit including the SMART August 2014 renewal at this time. They will never work to serve any need but greed unless changed to serve everyone equally.

ACT 51 which is the ten percent of the State fuel tax for existing mass transit is a dead issue at this time. And you all will see this with both the Federal and State fuel taxes possibly doubling, unless you get in writing first for safe public community transit service to get some of this money. It won't happen on it's own.

[Bham1982]

So now Austin, one of the most car-oriented cities in the U.S., with no real transit to speak of, is considered the ideal for transit acoyltes on DYes?

Austin has four major freeway capacity improvements according to Texas DOT-

http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/sites.html

[iheartthed]

So now Austin, one of the most car-oriented cities in the U.S., with no real transit to speak of, is considered the ideal for transit acoyltes on DYes?

Austin has four major freeway capacity improvements according to Texas DOT-

http://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/sites.html

I was in Austin earlier this month. It's certainly not more car oriented than Metro Detroit. It also feels a lot more centralized than Detroit. But at least in Austin there is an honest debate about whether it makes sense to invest in more highway capacity or to invest in alternative transit options.

Even Dallas, which was probably more decentralized than Detroit at one point, started to invest in rail lines over a decade ago.

[ghettopalmetto]

According to the computer models researchers used, the only reliable way to reduce congestion is for more people to move to the center. And roughly 40% of the population would have to do that to bring commutes back down to reasonable lengths.

To allow this to happen, though, the local zoning regulations have to permit higher density uses than typical suburban zoning, and perhaps reduce minimum parking requirements [[in order to encourage more development and make the streetscapes more walkable). I don't know that most local zoning departments are sophisticated enough to understand this phenomenon. It's far easier to resort to the same cookbook they've used for decades.

[Wesley Mouch]

To allow this to happen, though, the local zoning regulations have to permit higher density uses than typical suburban zoning, and perhaps reduce minimum parking requirements [[in order to encourage more development and make the streetscapes more walkable). I don't know that most local zoning departments are sophisticated enough to understand this phenomenon. It's far easier to resort to the same cookbook they've used for decades.

Zoning Departments may not understand, but the real problem will be the existing residents. People living in a fairly dense neighborhood may not like allowing residences along alleys, multi-family dwellings, demolition of homes on streets like Trumbull and replacing them with apartment/condo buildings. We see the resistance to 'gentrification'. Wait till you see 'densification'.

[ghettopalmetto]

Zoning Departments may not understand, but the real problem will be the existing residents. People living in a fairly dense neighborhood may not like allowing residences along alleys, multi-family dwellings, demolition of homes on streets like Trumbull and replacing them with apartment/condo buildings. We see the resistance to 'gentrification'. Wait till you see 'densification'.

Well, "fairly dense" is a relative concept.

I have a buddy who is president of his homeowners association in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is perhaps one of the poster children for suburban sprawl. The county has been trying to create more population density near public transit. At first mention of the word "density", some residents think you're trying to build Calcutta in their backyard. I think a lot of it is a visceral reaction to the thought of "The Other" moving into their pristine kingdom.

[Dan Wesson]

Expansion in Michigan was once necessary and possible. The Future is Contraction.

Plan accordingly.

[GP For Life]

Expansion in Michigan was once necessary and possible. The Future is Contraction.

Plan accordingly.

Bingo. All these fruitcakes keep comparing Detroit, and/or the Detroit metro area, to growing areas and then saying: Look these places expanded their highways and now look at the traffic. Bam, induced demand!

We've been contracting and our road system is still screwed.

If induced demand could exceed marginal supply, then you'd see every company with cheap access to capital [[right now every investment-grade company) building toll roads. The ROIC would increase directly proportionally to capital invested.

Get me a whiteboard and get yourself a chair. I'll educate you mongoloids if it kills you.

[Honky Tonk]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

[313WX]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

Why didn't you take Grand River as an alternate route?

[Honky Tonk]

Why didn't you take Grand River as an alternate route?

See my comments above. Thanx for the tip.

[313WX]

See my comments above. Thanx for the tip.

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

[Bham1982]

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

Why would someone prefer to travel long distances down extremely slow surface streets with all the lights? And why would the traffic ills of other cities be a mitigating factor?

[Honky Tonk]

Yes, I see your comment. My next question is why didn't you take the alternate routes? Even if coming from the suburbs, you could have gotten off the freeway and taken one of the surface streets the rest of the way before getting downtown. Detroit after all is blessed with a very comprehensive street grid, something many cities lack today.

BTW, sitting in traffic for 45 minutes is pretty typical for people in a *normal* big city on a *normal* day. If anything, we're spoiled rotten in that regard.

Ok, Here's the scenario. I didn't decide "Gee, a traffic jam. I'll just sit in it for 45 minutes". I know better then that, and I know Detroit streets better then that. My problem was once I got into it, [[took Lodge South, then I-75 North ramp, thinking I could get to I-375 South), there was nowhere to get off @. Had there been a Woodward exit, I would have taken that. All 3 Gratiot East exits had standing traffic, as did the right lane to get to I-375 South. Couple the Lion's game with the "usual" traffic jam from people getting off @ Lafayette for the Geektown Casino, things were impassable. There was no way you could see fom the Lodge to I-75 South on ramp what was going on until it was too late. They've added 2 stadiums, and a casino, but did nothing to alleviate traffic congestion or aid traffic flow. In fact, removing the Woodward exit ramp made things worse, IMO. Back to Novine, if the same setup was all Novi had for the Novi Mall/shopping area, I bet their customer base would drop off sharply. Being the only football and baseball teams in town, it's either put up or shut up.

[Khorasaurus]

Well, after sitting in a 45 minute traffic jam last Monday evening, trying to get from I-75 South to the Geektown exit, I think they not only need to expand I-375, widen the off-ramp to 4 lanes, but re-add the Woodward off-ramp as well, to alleviate traffic congestion for Ford Field, Comerica Park, and the Geektown Casino. You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to.

I'm a little confused. Where were you trying to get to? And where were you coming from?

[LeannaM]

Freeways [[we call them highways here) are both good and bad. They're good because people can get where they are going faster. They are bad because they divide[[d) neighborhoods and the city itself. In at least some cities, the highway caused a physical divided through neighborhoods. I believe that contributed to those neighborhoods' decline [[population loss and loss of industry contributed as well).

St. Louis is diverting the new highway through Illinois so it won't go through Downtown anymore. The current highway through Downtown is lower than street level and it's hard to walk from Downtown to the Arch. They're planning to build a lid over the highway [[which is below the road level) so we'll see how that goes. It's supposed to be done in 2015.

Highways/Freeways are a double-edged sword for cities. They make the city easier to navigate, but they don't necessarily help the city itself. As a visitor to the city, highways can be great because you get around a lot faster. But the highways have caused damage to cities.

[Novine]

"You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to."

How is that accomplished with more freeways? In the scenario you described, someone already living in the city isn't going to be helped by freeway widenings. Don't want to deal with the congestion? Live in the city where you can use alternative routes and modes of transportation to get from point A to point B.

[Honky Tonk]

"You want to stop "sprawl" and people moving out of the City? Make Detroit a safer and more welcoming place for people to move back to."

How is that accomplished with more freeways? In the scenario you described, someone already living in the city isn't going to be helped by freeway widenings. Don't want to deal with the congestion? Live in the city where you can use alternative routes and modes of transportation to get from point A to point B.

I just told you how it would help, I sat in a non-moving traffic jam for 45 minutes. I actually live in the City but work in the 'burbs, as many Detroit residents do. How is dealing with traffic jams from casino and stadium traffic slowing my return helping me? Do you actually think if I-375 was removed, and turned into a "stop & go" boulevard THAT would help? I already know all the alternative routes. Not knowing what is going on until you get to that point leaves you no choice. Ever been on Woodward & Mack & I-75 after one of the games? Gridlock for miles in each direction. Those are both boulevards.

[ghettopalmetto]

I just told you how it would help, I sat in a non-moving traffic jam for 45 minutes.

Do you think that could have been the result of 65,000 people ALL riding in cars, leaving the SAME location at the SAME time? I mean, you're only dumping the equivalent of the daily traffic load of a *very* busy road onto one point on the network all at once.

A freeway lane has a capacity of 1200 vehicles an hour. In the event of a football game letting out, let's assume there are 3 people per vehicle. You'd need eighteen lanes of freeway just to clear that crowd in an hour. Which means even the addition of one lane wouldn't help squat. Forty-five minutes, you didn't do too badly.

We'll get MDOT working on your own private lane ASAP.