Power Knocked Out for a Half Million Metro Detroit Customers. Why?

[Lowell]

If you are reading this you probably have power so the response might be tepid. I know we had big winds yesterday and all these outages may be completely explainable, but it just seem to me that even when mother nature simply sneezes big chunks of the grid go offline. From my experience this has worsened over the recent years.

I lose power, I would guess, 5-10 times a years. Most of these are just a few seconds, enough to have to reset the clock. Others are for hours.

A few years ago I gave up, bit the bullet and paid for a natural gas powered generator which is powering this post, not DTE. That choice was driven by the great 2003 blackout when the ability to get other forms of generator fuel, gasoline or propane, was next to impossible.

Is it time to start discussing/even mandating that key parts of the the grid be placed underground or otherwise sheltered? We do this with gas.

Here is the mess as of 10AM. Anything colored is out.

[Bham1982]

Is it time to start discussing/even mandating that key parts of the the grid be placed underground or otherwise sheltered? We do this with gas.

We could do this, but underground utilities are extremely expensive, and obviously those costs would be passed on to consumers. Burying power lines only makes sense in the densest areas, and Michigan doesn't really do dense areas.

[MotorCityTrikes]

I've had a DTE natural gas generator since 2000 and they are well worth the investment. Yesterday was great when our power went out that baby kicked on in less than ten seconds.

I have a 9500 watt unit Fiance' vacummed and I watched the game......... beer was cold and micro-wave was in full swing!!! :-0

[compn]

detroit's grid is older than the suburbs grid.
thats why it goes down more and for longer periods of time.

moving cables underground costs an enormous amount of money.
i think its a good idea , but no one cares to do it.
if you do it, you get the same idiots digging up utilities that you get now. broken water/sewer/gas mains all year long.

just like in the 2003 blackout, a tree falls somewhere and screws everyone.

could DTE add a few more relay stations to avoid having an outage in one area affect 20,000 people ? maybe.

[Lowell]

detroit's grid is older than the suburbs grid.
thats why it goes down more and for longer periods of time.

If you look at the picture I just added to the first post the outages in the City of Detroit are not nearly as bad as the burbs.

This is kind of like 'earthquakes don't kill people, buildings do'. In the case of Michigan with power, it is the trees that do the knocking out. Maybe Detroit is more clear cut overall than elsewhere.

As for cost, maybe requiring all new transmission to go underground would be a start. Also anything that is critical infrastructure should be considered for hardening and even an alternate grid, like traffic-control, public safety facilities, gas stations and other aspects that are needed for faster recovery.

[bailey]

ok, it's not like it was just a breezy day. It was a major storm with insane winds. We're not going to bury every transmission wire in the region because 10-15% of the region's power customers suffer a relatively minor inconvenience for a day after a record breaking storm.

sure, losing power everytime there is a significant breeze is a problem.
Having half a city go dark any time is 85 degrees and people use A/c is a problem. But once a decade storm event? c'mon...

[WaCoTS]

yes, the electrical infrastructure--and furthermore, the trees that hang over it--in Metro Detroit are aging and prone to breakage.

don't mistake me for playing Devil's advocate, because i have the same feelings about DTE as most other people, but you have to keep in mind that DTE doesnt necessarily have a duty, nor the ability to guarantee you power at all times. as they say, "shit happens." as a former phone company installer, i can tell you that the linemen out there have always done everything they can to keep the grid up. i cant speak for DTE's corporate policies, but i can tell you the men on the ground do their best to provide the best service. i heard a woman complaining at DTE on the radio this morning, who seemed to think it was DTE's fault the power went out. you cant blame them for an act of god. we still live in a world governed by mother nature. there is no guarantee of anything, such as the modern comfort of electricity. there are few people alive today who can remember the time before electrical service was universal, so i think our generations have taken it for granted to a large extent. if theres one thing i have learned from living in Detroit, it is: NEVER COUNT ON ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING FOR YOU. owning a generator is a wise investment, if you can afford it [[and dont live on the 10th floor of an apt blg).

yes, buried facilities are more storm-proof than aerial plant, but you have to understand what a colossal undertaking it is to relocate stuff like that. they cant just pull that out of their proverbial ass. AGAIN--i cant speak for DTE's corporate policies, so please dont assume im defending DTE, but i do know how much this stuff involves.

that said, i am happy to report that while Fort Wayne suffered some damage last night, we did not have any downed lines. the efforts of the Historic Fort Wayne Coalition have begun to pay off; we have done a lot of tree work over the years to help minimize damage to blgs and powerlines by our GIGANTIC FIRGGIN TREES, lol. we had a couple windows and doors blown out by the wind, and lots of tree boughs, shingles, and gutters strewn about, but other than that, nothing major.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Energy is so regulated that it is difficult to imagine DTE operating with a free hand. There are very strict rules on how much [[and how) they produce and distribute energy, what they can charge, etc. They are also at the whim of localities who can and do stipulate where energy lines can or cannot be located in their towns and cities. I suspect those rules are as often about aesthetics as they are about energy.

Agreed also that burying cables is expensive and not always possible. There are construction, water and accessibility issues with underground lines. Every area of the world has it's own geographic drawbacks. We tend not to get hurricanes and earthquakes. But we get midwestern storms. We should bury lines where it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense everywhere. California doesn't require every single building to be retrofitted to maximum earthquake-resistant codes. It's way too expensive. So they try to get the most critical public infrastructure and large-scale new construction ready. We should follow the same procedures here for storms. Unless some has spare billions sitting around, most of us will lose power occasionally.

[Detroitnerd]

In response to Lowell's original question, I'm going to say that a certain amount of this happens because DTE is a private company that puts profits ahead of reliable service. As to how much of a factor that is, I'm not sure, but it's definitely there with any corporation.

Corporate bottom-lickers: No need to respond. Just continue to apologize for this quasi-monopoly that defies the free market that so many of you glorify.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Corporate bottom-lickers: No need to respond. Just continue to apologize for this quasi-monopoly that defies the free market that so many of you glorify.

I am absolutely opposed to public utility monopolies. The government established and effectively maintains the monopoly. The government prevents the electricity market from operating like phone companies do now, offering different services and prices. And as I stated above, along with being a monopoly, DTE is micromanaged by state and federal energy regs. Undoubtedly prices would be lower and service better if the market were freed up. Call your congressman and legislator.

[Detroitnerd]

I am absolutely opposed to public utility monopolies. The government established and effectively maintains the monopoly. The government prevents the electricity market from operating like phone companies do now, offering different services and prices. And as I stated above, along with being a monopoly, DTE is micromanaged by state and federal energy regs. Undoubtedly prices would be lower and service better if the market were freed up. Call your congressman and legislator.

Yeah, that sounds nutty. I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies. Fuck the phone companies. Fuck "freeing up the market." We the people should own that shit.

[mwilbert]

I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies.

The phone company was never public, so it was never privatized. It went from one giant monopoly and some midgets to two giant monopolies and some insignificant companies by way of 9 local monopolies. Now you have much more competition because you have multiple wireless providers and usually a cable company provided telecom services. Some places have public power or coops. They work pretty well, but they aren't immune to the rise of distributed generation either, so it will be interesting to see how they fare going forward.

[Hermod]

Yeah, that sounds nutty. I'd rather have power production be part of the government than engage in some kind of privatization shell game like they did to the phone companies. Fuck the phone companies. Fuck "freeing up the market." We the people should own that shit.

Yes, in Germany, the phone system was run by the post office. In 1966, when I got a new set of quarters, Bundespost said it was an eight month lead time to get a phone installed. In 1966, Ma Bell could hook you up in 24-48 hours.

[WaCoTS]

consider this:
it is in DTE's interest, on one hand, to move buried plant underground due to the high expenditure of paying labor costs [[and overtime!) for union linemen to respond to these storm-induced catastrophes.

yet they still have not.

this should illustrate just how hard it is to make such an infrastructure change like that. they would rather pay union guys overtime everytime it storms. in fact, there are relief linemen crews driving all the way from Colorado as we speak to help DTE men. thats got to be expensive. if they were to undertake a relocation campaign, expect to see your electric bill EXPLOOOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDDEEEEEE when you open it.

im thinking a large chunk of the region's customers are already on payment assistance plans; if they jacked rates up any more im sure there would be a significant segment of the population who simply couldnt afford it

[Scottathew]

My subdivision in Rochester Hills has underground utilities. This results in less power issues. However, much of the distribution leading up to the point where it goes underground, is above ground. Larger distribution lines usually are better maintained.

DTE is working on this issue. Here's a map of system improvement and tree maintenance: http://www.dteenergy.com/map/systemImprovements.html

[mwilbert]

At this point, this problem is more likely to be dealt with by distributed generation than by the utilities.

The electric utility business model is under threat from distributed generation, which both reduces the need for hardened power distribution and makes it harder for the utilities to afford it.

[Detroitnerd]

Distributed generation as practiced by cool hippies running power back into the grid from their windmills and photovoltaics? Or by asshats who want to make extra money by upending the economies of scale of power grids by pretty much forcing individual households to buy their own fucking power plants?

You know it's a shitty deal for the average person when they give it a hard-to-understand name like "distributed generation."


"Sorry, poor folks. Go fund your own power plants. We don't need you anymore." Signed, residents, Galt's Gulch

[mwilbert]

Distributed generation as practiced by cool hippies running power back into the grid from their windmills and photovoltaics? Or by asshats who want to make extra money by upending the economies of scale of power grids by pretty much forcing individual households to buy their own fucking power plants?

Probably some of both. I doubt anyone is going to actually force households to buy their own generation capacity, but there will probably have to be some kind of change to the pricing of connection to the grid. Maybe that could cost enough to force people to generate their own power, but unless generation becomes way cheaper I wouldn't think so. If it does become way cheaper, probably a good idea.

You know it's a shitty deal for the average person when they give it a hard-to-understand name like "distributed generation."

OK, I'll bite. What do you think would be a simpler yet descriptive name? I actually think "distributed generation" is a pretty straightforward term for what it going on. I certainly don't think it is a masterpiece of obfuscation.

[sumas]

First: I am grateful I did not lose power. I contracted with a private firm 3 weeks ago to cut a dead tree limb that hangs over my power lines that come from our alley. I guess the job was too small to bother with. Still haven't seen them.

Second: I believe as a granted easement it should have been DTE's responsibility to cut that limb but they say: not our problem. Duh. They said no way. My attorney and insurance company say otherwise.

That limb maintained its placement THANK GOD!

Third: I believe DTE to be illegal monopoly.

Forth: DTE has it name plastered all over as funders for concerts, grants for community programs etc but cut off utilities with zero mercy to the poor who get behind.

Sorry Lowell for swearing: Fuck DTE

[Hermod]

Second: I believe as a granted easement it should have been DTE's responsibility to cut that limb but they say: not our problem. Duh. They said no way. My attorney and insurance company say otherwise.

Third: I believe DTE to be illegal monopoly.

Forth: DTE has it name plastered all over as funders for concerts, grants for community programs etc but cut off utilities with zero mercy to the poor who get behind.

Two: Most place I have lived, the electric company trims the trees hanging over the trunk line while the homeowner trims the trees hanging over the line from the pole to the house.

Three: Illegal? Utilities are granted the monopoly by the government in return for submitting to regulation. There are a lot of electric and gas companies in the US which have service monopolies for their area. Landline telephone and CATV service works the same way. They are granted an exclusive franchise by the state/locality.

Four: Utilities have their rates set on a "cost-plus" basis where the "plus" is their profit. Charitable giving comes out of their "plus" and is "advertising".
Allowing people to continue to use electricity without paying for it is a "cost" and if they do that, they will have to go to the regulators and request increased rates for the people that do pay for their electricity to make up for the shortfall.

[trotwood]

I live in an area where,almost without fail,if the wind blows slightly too hard or I sneeze too loudly the power goes out. I've been in this area for a little over three years. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the outages. Last winter power went out in an odd manner. It was out in a three block radius but it specific spots. My home,my neighbors,&an apartment building lost power yet homes across the street were functioning. During the last Presidental election cycle power went out in a three block radius again yet a school almost directly behind my home was still powered as were buisnesses a few blocks west of me. What made that outage all the stranger was as I stood in line to vote a man spoke of how his power had gone out the night before and was still out yet his next door neighbors on both sides hadn't gone dark.
This past September power went out one night just after 7:00pm and wasn't restored until that following morning around 11:30am. The only bright spot of the last outage was I remembered DTE's policy of issuing a small credit to customers who experience extended outages. As nice is it was to receive the credit I'd much rather DTE work to make improvements to issue constant outages aren't happening so often.
Thank heaven during this last storm power flickered off for only a few minutes. I'm not sure why DTE is having a problem[[other than the obvious;storms cause power outages)but it seems to me power goes off more often than it should.

[sumas]

Well in Detroit, used be that above ground lines were easements, below were owner issues from the main line to house. All of that is moot. Monopolies are illegal but our government refuses to recognize our own laws.

Charity has nothing to do with DTE, they are vicious to the poor. Just want to point out that advertising the shit out there doesn't hold water. Both are tax deductible. One is just more fun then the other cause they get huge banks of free tickets and other perks. Helping people in need only fuels the soul. They are soulless blood suckers.

In case you wonder, all my utilities are paid and current, but I have many many neighbors that struggle to survive. DTE doesn't give a shit. Community pitches in to help. DTE,They make zero effort to compromise or help despite what they say.

Given DTE "altruism" for big civic affairs and total lack of concern for the poor, I never attend anything that has their name attached, which only means I attend small un-sponsored events. Doubt their freebies get taxed but should be.

[Jimaz]

FWIW, here's a link to the DTE Outage Map.

According to that map, fewer than 99 people were affected inside the Utica cemetery. Well, duh. I guess that's a truism.

[Detroitnerd]

That's the executives' money, not yours to play with on silly projects such as creating jobs and upgrading infrastructure!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Detroitnerd, I suggest you get some solar panels and go off-grid. That should help you both with the electricity and your anger issues.