"Don't Detroit Virginia"

[Dan]

Anyone else see this? Detroit - verb, meaning ruin—Virginia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJhN...e_gdata_player

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Anyone else see this? Detroit - verb, meaning ruin—Virginia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJhN...e_gdata_player

This is unfortunate, but not unfair. Detroit has been self-destructive for generations. We're improving now, though. This wouldn't be insulting if there wasn't some underlying truth.

[DetroitPlanner]

Yeah Detroit is full of those Hollywood types and Wall Streeters who drive tiny Toyotas!

[davewindsor]

Anyone else see this? Detroit - verb, meaning ruin—Virginia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJhN...e_gdata_player

Where did you get Detroit is a verb that means "ruin" from the commercial? They said, "We won't let you Detroit us" while they put in quotation marks on the screen, "Why Obama let Detroit [[city) go bankrupt" [[Detroit News Editorial).

Detroit [[verb) from the commercial means "bankrupt", not the verb "ruin". If it was "ruin", you would have seen the verb "ruin" somewhere on the screen, not "bankrupt".

Bankruptcy these days is the process of getting your finances in order by wiping out bad debts. People are filing for bankruptcies and keeping their houses, cars, and other assets. Even Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy three times to clean up his bad debts and he still owns a bunch of skyscrapers across the nation. Detroit is filing for bankruptcy to reduce their huge public pension obligations that they couldn't negotiate outside of the courts; it's not the end of the city, and bankruptcy will not turn Detroit into a ghost town. Bankruptcy will not ruin Detroit; it will make Detroit stand on a much solider ground by having the courts clean up their bad debts so people will want to come back.

How did you not get that?

[Honky Tonk]

Where did you get Detroit is a verb that means "ruin" from the commercial? They said, "We won't let you Detroit us" while they put in quotation marks on the screen, "Why Obama let Detroit [[city) go bankrupt" [[Detroit News Editorial).

Detroit [[verb) from the commercial means "bankrupt", not the verb "ruin". If it was "ruin", you would have seen the verb "ruin" somewhere on the screen, not "bankrupt".

Bankruptcy these days is the process of getting your finances in order by wiping out bad debts. People are filing for bankruptcies and keeping their houses, cars, and other assets. Even Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy three times to clean up his bad debts and he still owns a bunch of skyscrapers across the nation. Detroit is filing for bankruptcy to reduce their huge public pension obligations that they couldn't negotiate outside of the courts; it's not the end of the city, and bankruptcy will not turn Detroit into a ghost town. Bankruptcy will not ruin Detroit; it will make Detroit stand on a much solider ground by having the courts clean up their bad debts so people will want to come back.

How did you not get that?

I'm thinking those few frames showing burned out, spray painted homes and the like.

[davewindsor]

I'm thinking those few frames showing burned out, spray painted homes and the like.

I saw only one frame at :43 with a couple empty houses and one of them had the word "Bert" on it. The next frame with a graffitied concrete median had the California caption over it. But, empty houses can also mean redevelopment. Doesn't that area north of downtown for the new hockey stadium have empty houses like the Temple hotel with a lot of vacant land and garbage on it? Does that imply the area is ruined or is it a new and improved start for that area when they put the new hockey stadium there??

[Honky Tonk]

I saw only one frame at :43 with a couple empty houses and one of them had the word "Bert" on it. The next frame with a graffitied concrete median had the California caption over it. But, empty houses can also mean redevelopment. Doesn't that area north of downtown for the new hockey stadium have empty houses like the Temple hotel with a lot of vacant land and garbage on it? Does that imply the area is ruined or is it a new and improved start for that area when they put the new hockey stadium there??

And if pigs could fly, we wouldn't have to drive them to market. You're absolutely right, it COULD mean all of those things, if it's intent were meant for thought provoking thinking or discussion. But, IMO, that wasn't the intent of this message. I'm just a little surprised that people actually buy into these kinds of scare-tactic messages.

[steve from virginia]

Detroit is filing for bankruptcy to reduce their huge public pension obligations that they couldn't negotiate outside of the courts;

That's incorrect, Detroit, pensioners' reps and the State of Michigan negotiated a payment schedule that was later overturned by the state legislature ... in order to pass the revised EM enabling law.

The city's pension obligations aren't a 'thing' but a series of payments to be made over time. Some of the payments can be made because the pensions are largely funded such as police and fire department workers.

Instead, it is the State of Illinois that is underwater by +$100 billion for state worker pensions.

Michigan pushed Detroit into bankruptcy in order to shift funds from workers to the NYC bankers who are also owed billion$.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Michigan pushed Detroit into bankruptcy in order to shift funds from workers to the NYC bankers who are also owed billion$.

No money has been taken from workers. They never possessed the money in question. The government merely has multiple creditors after less total money than is owed to everyone. If there were enough money to pay everyone, bankruptcy will be denied. If not, pension payments to former employees are lower on the totem poll than loan and bond payments. Same thing for any gov't or business bankruptcy. Agree or disagree, that is the bankruptcy law [[unlike the automakers, Detroit will not be eligible for TARP funds to pay the pension obligations before bankruptcy). If you feel pensions should come first, I suggest lobbying Congress to amend the bankruptcy laws. Although, if that change did pass, good luck to any city in getting any money from a bank.

[steve from virginia]

First of all, there is a question as to whether Detroit is eligible for bankruptcy.

Second, seniority in bankruptcy here is clouded by the jurisdictional reach of the State of Michigan. Bankruptcy is an administrative procedure and thereby subordinate to state law.

Third, seniority in bankruptcy is further clouded by the likelihood of criminal behavior on the part of claimants. This is an issue because of the widespread criminality on the part of banks, particularly JP Morgan-Chase. There is also the possibility [[likelihood) of ongoing criminality on the part of the EM. A criminal cannot use bankruptcy as a means to further his activities or hold ill-gotten gains.

Fourth, the real issue is not Detroit's insolvency but Michigan's. The entire thrust of the Detroit bankruptcy is to force obligations of the state onto Detroit where these can be discharged favorably onto it [[Detroit). Otherwise, Detroit's pension obligation will adhere to the State ... as they adhere right now.

This is the real bottom line: Detroit is ruined but so is Michigan which is likely in worse financial shape. I don't have the figures in front of me, but Michigan is another big, rust-belt, behemoth like Illinois and New York, with vast public infrastructure costs -- of which public employees are a fraction -- these costs have ballooned and cannot be met, without a Federal bailout.

Right now, the State is paying Detroit's ongoing government expenses: public safety, teachers, bond coupons, etc. They can do so because they [[Michigan) can borrow as Detroit cannot.

BTW: Virginia is broke, too. It is a 'right to work state' with no public unions ... but tens of thousands of miles of costly roads that do not return anything for their use ... as well as the hundreds of billion$ in debt taken on to create them.

[davewindsor]

No money has been taken from workers. They never possessed the money in question. The government merely has multiple creditors after less total money than is owed to everyone. If there were enough money to pay everyone, bankruptcy will be denied. If not, pension payments to former employees are lower on the totem poll than loan and bond payments. Same thing for any gov't or business bankruptcy. Agree or disagree, that is the bankruptcy law [[unlike the automakers, Detroit will not be eligible for TARP funds to pay the pension obligations before bankruptcy). If you feel pensions should come first, I suggest lobbying Congress to amend the bankruptcy laws. Although, if that change did pass, good luck to any city in getting any money from a bank.

What he said.

Third, seniority in bankruptcy is further clouded by the likelihood of criminal behavior on the part of claimants. This is an issue because of the widespread criminality on the part of banks, particularly JP Morgan-Chase. There is also the possibility [[likelihood) of ongoing criminality on the part of the EM. A criminal cannot use bankruptcy as a means to further his activities or hold ill-gotten gains.

Where did this crap come from? Cite your source. If criminality occurred, then that means criminal charges were laid and a prosecutor actually believed there was a reasonable chance of conviction in a criminal court. How do you prove criminal charges in a non-criminal court when no charges have been laid by the police to begin with??

How do you even prove criminal charges based on a likelihood?? The standard for a criminal charge is a lot higher. You have to prove criminality by JP Morgan-Chase or the claimants of the bankruptcy or the EM "beyond a reasonable doubt" not likelihood. Hasn't happened because neither the police nor a prosecutor believes it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so you're talking crap.

Fourth, the real issue is not Detroit's insolvency but Michigan's. The entire thrust of the Detroit bankruptcy is to force obligations of the state onto Detroit where these can be discharged favorably onto it [[Detroit). Otherwise, Detroit's pension obligation will adhere to the State ... as they adhere right now.

That's up to a bankruptcy judge, and I don't think that's going to happen because a bankruptcy judge is there to get the city's books in order, not make it worse. This is what bankruptcy courts do all the time in the private sector. Do you have a legal precedent saying otherwise?? It would defeat the purpose of why they legislated bankruptcy law to begin with.

This is the real bottom line: Detroit is ruined but so is Michigan which is likely in worse financial shape. I don't have the figures in front of me, but Michigan is another big, rust-belt, behemoth like Illinois and New York, with vast public infrastructure costs -- of which public employees are a fraction -- these costs have ballooned and cannot be met, without a Federal bailout.

Ridiculous. More Tea party garbage.

[steve from virginia]

You aren't paying attention. JP Morgan-Chase is a criminal enterprise, much like the Cosa Nostra. Take a minute and Google, "JP Morgan-Chase criminal activities".

Here's one: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...99K00S20131021

Part of their scam is to bribe muni bosses in order to make 'deals' favorable to the bank ... and ruinous to the communities. Here's another:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aF_f8gLLNvn0

That's just one of the mega-banks. There are two dozen of them, all have engaged in price fixing [[Libor scandal and ongoing fixing of forex markets, oil markets) bribery, collusion, trading with customers' funds, stealing from fiduciary accounts and insider trading.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago and Orr was pushing for a deal between Detroit and Barclays over cash flow from one of the Detroit casinos. Barclays is another crooked bank this one in the UK. "Why Barclays and not another bank?" you might ask. The answer is that Barclays put the most cash under the table: this is how banks and government 'agencies' interact, if you believe otherwise you are naive.

Orr is an agent of the banks not Detroit; the state not Detroit. His job is to get Michigan off the hook just like his job was to get the Feds off the hook w/ the auto company bankruptcy.

Also, you need to better understand the jurisdictional limits to the various courts. Bankruptcy courts are administrative, at the lowest rung of the Federal judiciary food chain. Administrative courts hear trademark and patent cases as well as CFR disputes involving Federal rules and disputes involving agencies such as Social Security and Medicare, etc. Above them are Federal Courts that hear matters involving US Code- and Constitution: there are Federal Magistrates, District Courts, Courts of Appeals and the Supreme Court. Parallel jurisdiction are the state courts which are -- with the Federal courts -- constitutional courts. Administrative courts are rule courts, they are subordinate to state law where applicable.

Likewise, any citizen in Detroit can petition the Federal District Court to appoint a special master to oversee any bankruptcy action so that it conforms to US Code as well as serve the interest of justice. This demand has not been made but it certainly shall be.

Orr has a very short window before people start asking pointed questions about his lavish spending ... like where is the money coming from.

Because the State court in Michigan has already ruled [[somewhat confusingly) it is likely the jurisdiction issue will make its way to the US Supreme Court: there is no glamor to 'saving' Detroit as there was to 'saving' GM or Chrysler. The city is already conceded by the establishment to the voracious banks. So ... it's not up to the bankruptcy judge at all.

Save your faith: bankruptcy cannot 'save' Detroit, only divert what remains of Detroit funds to the bankers ... discharge as much of the state's obligations onto Detroit taxpayers as possible.

As for Tea Party, they are working for the governor and in the state legislature.

[Scottathew]

Well, I hope they don't "George Bush" Virginia, because that would kill 150,000 innocent people!

[finster]

Well, I hope they don't "Virginia" Detroit and subject us to these annoying political ads.

Oh, wait - we get those anyways.

[Dan]

Ok, perhaps bankrupt was the intent, however I think there was more to it.....

[davewindsor]

Ok, perhaps bankrupt was the intent, however I think there was more to it.....

Not perhaps. Bankruptcy is the intent and they didn't reference just Detroit. They even wrote "Collapsing Public Pensions" at :24, which is exactly why Detroit has to go through bankruptcy.

They attached different public policy references to other cities as well. They said, don't let them "Hollywood our families and schools" and "No District of Columbia tax and spend government in Virginia".

It's a statement of public policy, not a statement that "Detroit" is a verb meaning "ruin".

[poobert]

It's a Republican ad so may be quickly disregarded.

I seriously don't know what is wrong with that party. It is as if they are on self-destruct mode. Every fiber of their being is dedicated to attacking a second-term president who was elected by handy margins. Case and point, they just lost the VA election. I'm currently residing in VA and can tell you, this is not a bastion of liberaldom.

So essentially we're a one party state, with the [[centrist) Democrats in power and the Republicans divided into the plutocrats [[Old GOP) and the ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist "tea party." It's pretty boring going to the polls these days, with no real choice.

[Patrick]

It's a Republican ad so may be quickly disregarded.

I seriously don't know what is wrong with that party. It is as if they are on self-destruct mode. Every fiber of their being is dedicated to attacking a second-term president who was elected by handy margins. Case and point, they just lost the VA election. I'm currently residing in VA and can tell you, this is not a bastion of liberaldom.

So essentially we're a one party state, with the [[centrist) Democrats in power and the Republicans divided into the plutocrats [[Old GOP) and the ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist "tea party." It's pretty boring going to the polls these days, with no real choice.

The shrinking and aging Republican base can't handle the fact that the country is changing in ways they never thought possible. Demographics, sex, culture, technology, values...everything is changing and "their country" no longer exists. They want to "take their country back" but they fail to define what has actually been "taken" from them.

Living in Northern Virginia gave me a front row seat to the Ken Cuccinelli slow-mo trainwreck. I mean, Terry McAuliffe isn't the best candidate, but Cuccinelli was a fucking mess.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

and the ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist "tea party."

Poobert, I am openly conservative and consider myself a tea partier [[note: the "tea party" is not a single organized group). Please explain, with specifics, which policies generally advocated by the tea party could accurately be described as "ultra-nationalist" or "crypto-fascist". I know what those terms mean, and they do not describe any opinion that I hold. I am not asking you to debate the merits of your opinions or "tea party" opinions, only to announce which ideas caused you to use the terms you did.

[gameguy56]

Poobert, I am openly conservative and consider myself a tea partier [[note: the "tea party" is not a single organized group). Please explain, with specifics, which policies generally advocated by the tea party could accurately be described as "ultra-nationalist" or "crypto-fascist". I know what those terms mean, and they do not describe any opinion that I hold. I am not asking you to debate the merits of your opinions or "tea party" opinions, only to announce which ideas caused you to use the terms you did.

Mikey, I think the Tea Party definitely comes off that way to me as well.

I would be interested in understanding what policy positions/political positions you associate with the Tea Party?

[rb336]

It's a Republican ad so may be quickly disregarded.

I seriously don't know what is wrong with that party. It is as if they are on self-destruct mode. Every fiber of their being is dedicated to attacking a second-term president who was elected by handy margins. Case and point, they just lost the VA election. I'm currently residing in VA and can tell you, this is not a bastion of liberaldom.

So essentially we're a one party state, with the [[centrist) Democrats in power and the Republicans divided into the plutocrats [[Old GOP) and the ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist "tea party." It's pretty boring going to the polls these days, with no real choice.

I think it is fairly telling that the governor elect is fairly liberal by modern US standards [[I always put the center on Ike - and the Democratic platforms and Obama's policies are slightly to the right of the 1956 Republican/Eisenhower platform. hell, SOME of Obama's policies are straight out of the formerly considered "radical conservative" Barry Goldwater's playbook). Terry McAuliffe is a tad left of center, elected in a conservative state by beating a Tea Bagger. I suspect more and more "traditional" Republicans are finding even a genuinely liberal Dem more palatable than the tea baggers.

[steve from virginia]

I'm currently residing in VA and can tell you, this is not a bastion of liberaldom.

Where in Virginia?

[Jimaz]

The ad also morphed "California," "Hollywood" and "District of Columbia" into pejorative verbs as well as "Detroit." Maybe they should have alienated even more states and cities to win the election? Oh, wait.

Looks like someone unwittingly stepped into the hate trap and can't get free.

[EastsideAl]

I'm trying to figure out what part of the ongoing demonization of immigrants and non-Christians, the push for an aggressively isolationist foreign policy, the partisan use of the flag and other national symbols [[as if they belong only to them), the anti-democratic shutdown of our government [[over an issue that had already been decided by Congress, the President, the Supreme Court, and the voters), the resistance to even conversation with [[let alone any democratic compromise with) their political opposition and fellow Americans, all the ultra-divisive talk of "makers" and "takers", the attempted extreme imposition of their religious beliefs on everybody else, all the "god, guns, and guts" and "the south will rise again" rhetoric, all of the work aimed at minimizing or marginalizing minority participation in our democracy, all of the dark talk of Socialism, Kenyan-born double-agent presidents, black helicopters, internment camps, lists of Communists in Congress, "gangs of five", secessionism, "second amendment remedies", and the demonization of their political opposition as being anti-American forces out to purposely destroy the country, isn't ultra-nationalist and crypto-facist? [[Actually, I personally would say a whole lot more than "crypto")

There is nothing "conservative" about this cult-like hotbed of reactionary fanaticism, this American Taliban. And the extent to which one of our major political parties, and traditional American conservatism, has been captured by them is nothing short of tragic for our democracy. Fortunately, outside of certain areas of the country, they are quickly foaming and aging their way into a corner of political irrelevance, as last Tuesday's political events showed again.

[EastsideAl]

Don't Cuccinelli Detroit!