Grosse Pointe vs. Bloomfield Hills: best days behind them?

**mark.vandorn** · November-06-13, 02:36 PM

I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html

Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed?

**pkbroch** · November-06-13, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by mark.vandorn

I found this 2005 thread in the archives and thought it was worth revisiting:

http://atdetroit.net/forum/messages/62684/61765.html

Nine years later, post-recession, what has changed? Both of these enclaves seem to suffer from a rapidly aging population--especially the Pointes. Are both of them capable of being elite locations for another generation or is their fall from grace inevitable? I don't know anything about property values, demos, current new buyers, school systems, crime, etc. I look forward hearing from those of you well versed in those regards.

Another brilliant observation, from the expert on the Barden house.

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 02:54 PM

Bloomfield Hills replaced the Pointes as the region's wealth center 30-40 years ago. They're on completely different trajectories, and not really comparable.

**Detroitnerd** · November-06-13, 03:05 PM

I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.

Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.

**A2Mike** · November-06-13, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.

Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.

Grosse Pointe's WASP character, while not yet extinct, has gradually changed, and exerts its influence more in matters of style than economic dominance. Newer Pointers probably couldn't tell a canon in the undercroft from a nerf gun in the basement, but they like the discreet patination of well made and finely aged buildings, interiors and landscaping. Ralph Lauren tries, crudely, to evoke such images for a mass market, but Grosse Pointe evolved through time, study and care, not market testing. Grosse Pointe's unspoken elephant in the living room, however, is an inconvenient proximity to a place thought dangerous and unlovely by many, and that's why it's real estate values lag. Just imagine the price the price a house like 211 Vendome would bring in Bel-Air, Greenwich or Hillsborough, where Carolands, bigger but no grander than Rose Terrace, still stands and even gets books written about it, while 211 sits unsold.

**Hans64** · November-09-13, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I was talking with a former longtime resident of Grosse Pointe who told me that part of the problem with rehabilitating the reputation of the Pointes is the area's reputation for being restricted and WASPy. One joke that came up in the conversation was the idea that the best thing that could happen to the area would be for 10,000 wealthy gay couples to move into the Pointes and lavish their disposable income on those beautiful old homes. But there's the rub, as my friend saw it: The sort of young and well-to-do people the Pointes need don't necessarily like the idea of living in that kind of exclusive enclave, with the kind of baggage it carries.

Bear in mind, this was a conversation about perceptions. I'd be interested in actual statistics from, say, 2010 vs. 2000.

Well, here's my perspective as gay former Oakland County resident now living on the West Coast [[for the past 20 years). I grew up in Royal Oak, went to college in MI, then left for good. If I were moving back to the Detroit area, GP would be top of the list. When I was growing up Birmingham was upscale but still had a pleasant small town feel. Well, no more. Too busy, too dense. On a recent visit [[my parents still live there) I was dismayed to see all the McMansions that replaced lovely older homes around Quarton Lake. GP has better housing stock, is more walkable, has a lakefront location, and is closer to downtown. I'm not a shopper so the frequent complaint that GP is too far from a good shopping mall doesn't mean anything to me. GP will get more diverse and sooner or later the downtown/midtown crowd is going to find it very appealing--probably as soon as they have kids.

**sumas** · November-09-13, 04:11 AM

I hope I am not high jacking this thread too much. Our son is getting a divorce and moving from GPP to Midtown.

Me, I am doing snoopy dances. They have no kids so I'll never have to see that bitch again. His soon to be ex is GP, old money.Actually will only miss her Dad who was gracious and mannerly.

Mid town is a good choice for him. He can walk to work or bike. He is involved in many activities and this centralizes most of his interests. He plans to resume classes at WSU. Has a great creative job and am so happy he will be free to pursue his interests.

I expect he will eventually re-marry, he is great with kids and wants them. Mostly likely he will move back to one of the GPs. It is a good place to raise kids.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 07:46 PM

Bham1982, What trajectory do you think the GP's are on?

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ben

Bham1982, What trajectory do you think the GP's are on?

I think the Pointes will always be fine and relatively desirable, but I do think the home values have suffered relative to Oakland County [[though admit I'm biased). Compare GP Park to Birmingham. I live in Birmingham and will admit the architecture in GP Park is 100 times better. No tacky mega-bigfoot homes, and relatively few bungalows/future teardown jobs. Yet Birmingham real estate values blow away the Pointes. I think, very conservatively, per square foot values run 2 to 2.5 times those of the Pointes. In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.

**Ben** · November-06-13, 08:07 PM

I Agree, Bham. In my own case I have lost over 125,000 on my home. In fact I think one of the reasons some of the best houses don't sell is because they are expensive and the reality is that they're not going to increase in value.

**rb336** · November-06-13, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.

you can get a 4-bedroom, 3 bath for under $300K in Birmingham. If you are looking for a family with two kids, you can get a three-bedroom, 2 bath for under $200K. I was just looking

**Bham1982** · November-06-13, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

you can get a 4-bedroom, 3 bath for under $300K in Birmingham. If you are looking for a family with two kids, you can get a three-bedroom, 2 bath for under $200K. I was just looking

You cannot get such a house, unless you're talking about a wreck or tiny. For family-sized homes, in semi-move in condition, you're looking at least 500k. For something well located, in good shape, and at least 2,000-2,500 ft., probably closer to 600k.

**GP For Life** · November-07-13, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

I think the Pointes will always be fine and relatively desirable, but I do think the home values have suffered relative to Oakland County [[though admit I'm biased). Compare GP Park to Birmingham. I live in Birmingham and will admit the architecture in GP Park is 100 times better. No tacky mega-bigfoot homes, and relatively few bungalows/future teardown jobs. Yet Birmingham real estate values blow away the Pointes. I think, very conservatively, per square foot values run 2 to 2.5 times those of the Pointes. In Birmingham, 500k will not give you a family sized house and definitely nothing renovated and non-bungalow; in the Pointes it will give you something big, beautiful and distinctive, and in move-in condition.

Bham gets it. Oakland County in general has some architectural abominations that merit trials at The Hague and there’s some gorgeous classic architecture as well. The prevalence of architectural atrocities is far-lower in the Pointes.

GP is located on one of the nicest freshwater lakes in the country for pleasure boating and part of the world’s largest freshwater systems. We can be at our boats in five minutes and on the water in ten. Our parks are essentially private clubs unto themselves, with comparable amenities and private marinas.

Another thing that’s oft overlooked is that GP is legitimately a community. Kids ride their bikes to school, to the corner store, and to the parks. We don’t have a highway running through the middle of town [[which is nice, but is a drawback too) separating us from each other.

GP people, by and large, are more polite. I work in Bloomfield Hills and when I hold the door open for ladies and say please and thank you, people look at me strangely. Birmingham has less of those people, but in BH I am clearly an outlier.

Grosse Pointe has more of a classic sense of style as well. You see far less $300 jeans and Ed Hardy t-shirts and far more polos and pearls, as we say.

Yes, there’s less of a nightlife in GP, but then I can be downtown in ten minutes. I would also argue that the Park strip is coming back and with the increase economic activity in the area soon we’ll be back to the days of weekend evenings looking like mardi gras.

Is there less shopping in GP? Absolutely, go to Sommerset around Christmas time and then tell me you’re not thankful that it is 30 minutes away. The only thing worse than a mall at Christmas is listening to people complain about driving there the rest of the year. You can have your shopping and droves of aspirational undesirables clogging your roadways, thank you very much.

GP is far more tied to downtown than BH and Birmingham, which is tied far more to the faceless glass towers of Troy. Right now, I would be short suburban office space and long downtown office space, if I were looking at the trend. As for the demographic picture of GP [[BH and Birmingham, as well) having masses of old people, just look at our county’s demographics. It was just worse here because for the last eight years young people couldn’t get a job in SE Michigan to save their life. That trend is starting to reverse.

By the way, someone mentioned something about liquid wealth in GP. I will say this, one wealth management office from a bulge bracket bank is the second-largest in the world as measured by assets under management. There’s an astounding amount wealth in SE Michigan in general and GP in particular, it’s just that there wasn’t any wealth generation for the last ten years.

Don’t count out GP, or BH and Birmingham. Though, I would say Birmingham is probably overvalued right now from a market prospective, otherwise I like that town. BH is just ghastly and filled with people of poor breeding and even worse bearing. I wouldn’t live there if you paid me.

**jaytheory** · November-07-13, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Bloomfield Hills replaced the Pointes as the region's wealth center 30-40 years ago. They're on completely different trajectories, and not really comparable.

the region is no longer producing wealth so yes their best days are behind them.

**1953** · November-07-13, 09:51 AM

I live in Grosse Pointe and think its just fantastic. Great old homes on tree lined streets, close to the lake and downtown. There are some stuffy people there, but most are not. The stuffy ones just make you laugh.

If I could change one thing about the Grosse Pointes, it would be related to Eastland. When my wife and I want to go to a bix box retailer or chain restaurant, we usually go to Macomb Mall or Hall Road. I have followed many a Grosse Pointer on I-94 to and from those destinations over the years.

Don't get me wrong - I love the small retailers and family owned restaurants in the Pointes, but sometimes you just need cheaply made Chinese goods and low-quality mass-appeal food, and it would be nice to have better access to these things.

1953

**Cliffy** · November-07-13, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by jaytheory

the region is no longer producing wealth so yes their best days are behind them.

The wealth is still here. You just have to find it.

**Honky Tonk** · November-08-13, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Cliffy

The wealth is still here. You just have to find it.

Let me know if you do, will you?

**Cincinnati_Kid** · November-07-13, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Bloomfield Hills replaced the Pointes as the region's wealth center 30-40 years ago. They're on completely different trajectories, and not really comparable.

Really? I mean, is this news? Like who cares if the Bloomies have replaced the Pointes. People need a roof over their heads, regardless where and if they can pay for it.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · November-06-13, 02:59 PM

"Fall from grace" is a bit of stretch. In NY, the Upper East Side was the place for the moneyed class to live. Now, younger people with money prefer downtown and Brooklyn, or if they have kids, the Upper West Side. So demos do change, even in rich communities. But guess what? The Upper East Side is still pretty damn rich. I can't think of a community that I have lived in or visited extensively whose demos haven't changed.

**p69rrh51** · November-06-13, 03:51 PM

On the Grosse Pointe side from my 40 plus year experience. GP for the most part is not for those in their 20's or 30's but once the children of many of those mentioned above get to school age GP becomes quite attractive.

I can say right not that there are three homes for sale on my street. Five years ago there were up to 30 homes for sale on University Place at any given time. My realtor friends are all crying about the lack of homes to sell.

As for this thread its all Bull***t!

**313WX** · November-06-13, 04:20 PM

As to the OP's question, probably just like Detroit's best days are behind it.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be an attractive to live/wirk/play again, and that diesn't mean Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills won't continue to be attractive places to live.

**motz** · November-06-13, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

As to the OP's question, probably just like Detroit's best days are behind it.

That doesn't mean Detroit can't be an attractive to live/wirk/play again, and that diesn't mean Grosse Pointe and Bloomfield Hills won't continue to be attractive places to live.

That is pretty much it. If you have a city that knows how to market itself and stay relevent, it'll be fine. If you don't, it turns into another [[particularly south) Warren.

**Hermod** · November-07-13, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by motz

That is pretty much it. If you have a city that knows how to market itself and stay relevent, it'll be fine. If you don't, it turns into another [[particularly south) Warren.

South Warren is a totally different case. South Warren is a sea of 1000-1300 sq ft ranch houses [[little boxes made of ticky-tacky) whose original owners have moved on for better digs. It is not a collection of big and somewhat big houses as are GP and BH.

**sumas** · November-07-13, 05:52 AM

We rented in Gpp for the schools for our kids. I didn't find it too stuffy, mostly I was amused. Like the lab retriever dressed in a rain slicker complete with hat and booties. It is or at least was quite racist. That was not amusing.

Kids got through school and we made a bee line back to Detroit. EEV for 7 years [[great community) and now Islandview, another great community. I guess our house is big but it doesn't feel that way. Our home value is close to nothing being Detroit and all. But I am not selling so don't care. In fact we continue to invest in our home.

I went to a ritzy party in GPS and an old lady complimented me on my outfit then informed me it was 5 yrs out of date. Like I could care. I am typing this with my hair in a pony tail, no make up, wearing a hoodie and sweats.

Someone mentioned on this thread that Detroiters resent the attention to downtown/midtown and yes we do.

**JBMcB** · November-07-13, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by sumas

I went to a ritzy party in GPS and an old lady complimented me on my outfit then informed me it was 5 yrs out of date.

Then she wasn't from Grosse Pointe. If anything, Pointers are not trendy. It's the home of the mint condition 10-year-old luxury car. I think the most popular car is still the pre-GM Saab wagon.

So GP schools were good enough for your kids, but GP wasn't good enough to live in? Interesting.