United Artists Theatre

**wolverine** · July-06-10, 07:51 AM

Yes, I think we can certainly say that with confidence now. You wouldn't be putting new windows in, that's for sure. It's going to get even more interesting as you start seeing more exterior work done.

**esp1986** · July-06-10, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by exmotowner

Well one thing for sure he is not demolishing the building. Just hope he's restoring the theater also.

Given all we have seen from the photos online, and the fact that they have solicited bids for plasterwork, I think it's safe to say the theater will be saved, also taking their entertainment business into account. The question in my mind is not whether they will restore the theater, but to what extent. Will they try to accurately restore the theater to it's grandeur, or rather just gut the auditorium entirely and simplify the design? That, in my mind, is the real question.

**preserve** · July-06-10, 10:06 AM

wasn't Marion Ilitch going to restore the DAR building as hdq for Motor City Casino? Could this be plan b?

**esp1986** · July-06-10, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by preserve

wasn't Marion Ilitch going to restore the DAR building as hdq for Motor City Casino? Could this be plan b?

I think you are referring to the GAR, or Grand Army of the Republic Building at the corner[[s) of Grand River, Adams and Cass. If you are, the sale of that building to the Ilitches was rescinded a year or so after the sale. I believe it was sold in 2005, and after a legal challenge by descendants of the Civil War Vets that it was built by, the sale was rescinded in 2006. It was then sold to a downtown based media company, whose plans were to renovate it as their headquarters. The case with the descendants of the vets, was settled with the condition that the company dedicate part of the building to the vets. Then the faltering economy shelved those plans, and I believe that ownership has, once again, reverted to the city.

**Gistok** · July-06-10, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Given all we have seen from the photos online, and the fact that they have solicited bids for plasterwork, I think it's safe to say the theater will be saved, also taking their entertainment business into account. The question in my mind is not whether they will restore the theater, but to what extent. Will they try to accurately restore the theater to it's grandeur, or rather just gut the auditorium entirely and simplify the design? That, in my mind, is the real question.

That's a very good question. I think that they will likely restore the huge fancy organ grilles, the procenium arch, and that fancy dangling procenium canopy. Also the fan vaults and ceiling could be restored.

What is questionable is whether they will be restoring the details to the auditorium sidewalls, and the rotunda lobby [[which has suffered the worst damage). The outer lobby is still in decent condition [[due to hit being at the base of the office tower.

As for all the stolen missing Indian Maiden busts.... all they have to do is recreate one of them, and then recreate more using the same plaster molds.

**esp1986** · July-06-10, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

That's a very good question. I think that they will likely restore the huge fancy organ grilles, the procenium arch, and that fancy dangling procenium canopy. Also the fan vaults and ceiling could be restored.

What is questionable is whether they will be restoring the details to the auditorium sidewalls, and the rotunda lobby [[which has suffered the worst damage). The outer lobby is still in decent condition [[due to hit being at the base of the office tower.

As for all the stolen missing Indian Maiden busts.... all they have to do is recreate one of them, and then recreate more using the same plaster molds.

Exactly, but with all of the time involved in recreating the [[now stolen) pieces, do they go to all of that trouble, or simplify it a bit to save, what would likely be, a whole lot of time in the research and re-creating areas.

**wolverine** · July-06-10, 02:20 PM

I've had more experience in dealing with reconstruction of limestone details than plaster, but I'm going to guess it's about the same. Basically a cast will need to be created for all the unique pieces. The cast is actually the expensive part. If there are alot of repeating pieces it shouldn't be a problem. In some instances you can almost consider cost negligible depending on the size and complexity of the duplicates.

We have digital fabrication to take care of the hard parts. There is no "time" element to restoring the theater. That's why we have computers to do the most difficult parts of the restoration for us.

**kathy2trips** · July-06-10, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by esp1986

I think you are referring to the GAR, or Grand Army of the Republic Building at the corner[[s) of Grand River,..... has, once again, reverted to the city.

Bit off topic, but have to say that I love the GAR building! Seeing it as a kid for the first time sparked my imagination and enhanced my love of architecture. Julius Hess [[1841-1899) was a Swiss-born architect who died too soon. Not many of his buildings remain. I think it should be given to a responsible Veterans group and made a clubhouse for veterans to go and network and have fun. There's something to be said for good karma. Come on, Mayor Bing, do the right thing!

**detroitbob** · July-06-10, 02:51 PM

The Illitch's certainly set the bar for the FOX restoration and although there was minimal plaster damage, what was repaired/replaced was done expertly. The 'gold standard' in Detroit is the Orchestra Hall and Opera House auditoriums. Both theaters prove that anything can be recreated today and it's all a matter of $$$$$. If they restore the auditorium at the UA building I would expect it to be accurate. Now all the cirulation areas/ staircases/restrooms would need to be upgraded, but I suspect the Lobby, Rotunda, and Auditorium would be accurate.

**esp1986** · July-06-10, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

I've had more experience in dealing with reconstruction of limestone details than plaster, but I'm going to guess it's about the same. Basically a cast will need to be created for all the unique pieces. The cast is actually the expensive part. If there are alot of repeating pieces it shouldn't be a problem. In some instances you can almost consider cost negligible depending on the size and complexity of the duplicates.

We have digital fabrication to take care of the hard parts. There is no "time" element to restoring the theater. That's why we have computers to do the most difficult parts of the restoration for us.

The problem is, most of the originals are gone of nearly all of the ornamentational pieces in the UA. The only thing anyone has to go by is historical photographs. There were multiples of a lot of the pieces, but the problem is, they are all gone. The big piece is the Maidens, there were a number of them, four or five [[Gistok?)... but with them all being gone, research needs to be done to recreate a master from which to create the molds. Such is the case with the decorative lamps in the auditorium. The problem is, very little is left of the original pieces from which to create molds, so a lot of time would need to be put into researching old photographs and essentially recreating the old pieces.

**Gistok** · July-09-10, 01:46 AM

esp1986.... I think you're a little bit too pessimistic on what has survived at the Detroit United Artists Theatre. Granted what survives doesn't look good, but there's enough of the really ornate plasterwork surviving to make plaster casts from [[remember if 90% of Detroit Opera House Plaster was re-cast and installed, then likely 100% of the UA will be). But enough survives of the most ornate plasterwork to make that feasable [[although also expensive).

The worst damage was to the theatre sidewalls, which had mostly flat plasterwork made to look like ashlar stone blocks, as well as a Hindustani mural one the balcony sidewalls.

And those Indian Maiden and Monk busts, can easily be recreated from either Manning Brothers photos, or those from the Elmhurst Illinois Theatre Historical Society of America photo archives. And once you recreate one plaster cast mold... duplicate plasterwork cost pennies on the dollar.

Check out this website of UA photos taken this decade... before roof repair and cleanup work began....

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tag...s/interesting/

Although I will concede one thing... it is doubtful if any movie palace has had as much damage and been brought back to life... as the Detroit United Artists would... if our most optimistic hopes are fullfilled. The Detroit Opera House was the previous holder of that title...

**Gistok** · July-09-10, 02:14 AM

One point about the Flickr images linked to in my previous post...

The Detroit Unted Artists got a remodeling job in the 1950s... And part of that remodeling was to change the "ashlar stonework" look of many of the theatre and lobby surfaces to a flat painted look. This was because opulence was out of vogue in the 50s and beyond, so they toned down the theatre quite a bit, including removing the exotic "Hindustan" or "Rajastan" murals on the balcony sidewalls, and adding the curtains over the organ grilles and procenium.

So that "tromphe l'oeil" [[fool the eye) feature, as well as the taming down [[with flat paint colors) of the inner and outer lobby, sort of gives the lobby spaces a bland look... [[as in the image of the Indian Maiden) when they were originally really quite richly and colorfully appointed [[hence the theatre's nickname "Jewel Box").

Although I've posted this image before... this image of the [[smallest of the 3) United Artists Theatre in Chicago [[pounded to rubble in 1990) shows how the look of stonework, metalwork, and terra cotta... all in plaster [[as well as colorful jewelled lighting) once permeated the United Artists Theatre in Detroit [[where no good color images of the theatre before the 50s remodeling exist)....

**Whitehouse** · July-09-10, 09:29 AM

What took the place of the Chicago UA? Another parking lot? I can't help but wonder how small children would have loved that misterious inside. [[Or it could also scare themm maybe.

) I think it would be wishful thinking to ask if the outside could also be brought back to the 1920's. It wouldn't be original but who cares. Better than the cool drab of the 50's.

Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Bit off topic, but have to say that I love the GAR building! Seeing it as a kid for the first time sparked my imagination and enhanced my love of architecture. Julius Hess [[1841-1899) was a Swiss-born architect who died too soon. Not many of his buildings remain. I think it should be given to a responsible Veterans group and made a clubhouse for veterans to go and network and have fun. There's something to be said for good karma. Come on, Mayor Bing, do the right thing!

Compared to what I've seen here this building is in a pretty good shape. It's just that pesky term of the daughters or sons of the Republic that limits progress. If I remember correct the integrity to it's past tennants has to be upheld. And this limits the kind of new use for the building. Am I correct?

**esp1986** · July-09-10, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

What took the place of the Chicago UA? Another parking lot? I can't help but wonder how small children would have loved that misterious inside. [[Or it could also scare themm maybe.

) I think it would be wishful thinking to ask if the outside could also be brought back to the 1920's. It wouldn't be original but who cares. Better than the cool drab of the 50's.

Compared to what I've seen here this building is in a pretty good shape. It's just that pesky term of the daughters or sons of the Republic that limits progress. If I remember correct the integrity to it's past tennants has to be upheld. And this limits the kind of new use for the building. Am I correct?

To an extent. I believe that the two parties settled, and the agreement was that part of the building was to be dedicated as a sort-of memorial to the Civil War Vets, or in other words, the prior tenants.

**wolverine** · July-09-10, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

What took the place of the Chicago UA? Another parking lot?

No, the B37 Mall at Block 37. Block 37 is toward the top of the list of worst midwest demolition travesties. The major skyscraper development that was supposed to be built there fell through and the site sat underutilized for 30 years and future redevelopment efforts always seemed to be cursed. Finally, a 5 level shopping mall was built with a 22 story tower. The complex opened early 2010. However, the development in general is considered a failure. 2 additional towers on top of the mall were never built because of the recession, and the mall is in foreclosure, because of defunct mall developer Mills Corp.. However a court decision forces the mall to remain open and in operation and stores must complete their build-outs. Despite being open and still very imcomplete, the mall is always very busy.

**Gistok** · July-10-10, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

No, the B37 Mall at Block 37. Block 37 is toward the top of the list of worst midwest demolition travesties. The major skyscraper development that was supposed to be built there fell through and the site sat underutilized for 30 years and future redevelopment efforts always seemed to be cursed. Finally, a 5 level shopping mall was built with a 22 story tower. The complex opened early 2010. However, the development in general is considered a failure. 2 additional towers on top of the mall were never built because of the recession, and the mall is in foreclosure, because of defunct mall developer Mills Corp.. However a court decision forces the mall to remain open and in operation and stores must complete their build-outs. Despite being open and still very imcomplete, the mall is always very busy.

Thanks for the history Wolverine! I had heard that the entire block was empty for decades, but didn't know too many details. Before the Chicago UA was razed, they had a serious rodent problem. It seems that there were some restaurants that shared the block with the Chicago UA, and there were so many rats that got into the UA, that eventually they closed off the main floor seating, and put patrons only in the mezzanine and balcony.

One can only imagine the the rodent exodus to other parts of Chicago once the theatre was razed 1989-90.

**Whitehouse** · July-10-10, 03:32 PM

A nice anology about the Chicago UA and the jazz years.

**WayneMan** · July-10-10, 09:50 PM

I found these images of the interior of the LA united Artist theater that were taken recently. It will be interesting to see how close ours will come to this one

http://web.me.com/jmaxsimon/UNITED_A..._BUILDING.html

by the way, my first post on DYES

**wolverine** · July-10-10, 10:26 PM

Great find and welcome, Wayne Man. The LA UA is beautiful. I like how that site covers almost every angle of the place. You can also see how nice the office floors can be once you knock out all those interior partitions.

**Gistok** · July-11-10, 02:42 AM

Welcome Wayne Man!! And thanks for the great links!!

When United Artists first started building their own theatres, the Los Angeles [[1927), Chicago [[1927) and Detroit [[Feb. 1928) UA theatres were the 3 flagship theatres. After those 3 were finished the UA chain decided to share their theatres with the larger Loew's Theatre Chain [[owners of MGM). So you will find some theatres such as the Louisville Loews'/United Artists Theatre that share billing. But there were only 3 standalone United Artists Theatre movie palaces from the 1920s.

The Los Angeles UA was the largest of the 3 [[2,200 seats, compared to 2,072 for Detroit and 1,739 for Chicago). It was designed in a more "Cave Gothic" style where many of the highly ornate elements [[such as the organ grilles) give an almost "stalagtite" appearance. The Detroit and Chicago UA theatres had much crisper Spanish Gothic designs.

Also the "Hindustan" murals on the balcony sidewalls [[found in Detroit and Chicago) were replaced by images of America's Sweetheart [[Mary Pickford) in some of her cinematic roles. Mary Pickford, her husband Douglas Fairbanks Sr., Charlie Chaplin, Gloria Swanson and director D.W. Griffiths were the principal owners of the United Artists studio and theatres. Mary Pickford made sure to add a few Hollywood touches to the Los Angeles UA.

Today the Los Angeles UA is used as a church, and is well maintained.

**Gistok** · July-13-10, 12:51 AM

I finally had a chance to go thru the entire slideshow of Los Angeles United Artists images... wow! Thanks Wayne Man!

The Los Angeles United Artists had a single lobby, while the Detroit UA had an outer lobby and inner rotunda lobby. The reason for 2 lobbies in Detroit is that the Bagley facade of the building was 50 degrees out of plumb with the auditorium [[due to the Woodward street plan). So the addition of the circular rotunda lobby made this difference almost transparent to patrons.

Ironically most 1920s movie palace grand lobbies are not in alignment with their auditoriums. There was often an intervening space [[lobby or foyer) that hid this anomaly. In Detroit the Michigan, UA, Capitol [[Detroit Opera House) and State [[Fillmore) all had their lobbies out of alignment with the auditorium.

Of the GCP theatres, only the Fox and Music Hall had the auditorium and grand lobby in alignment... although for the Fox, the theatre entrance was not in alignment with the center of the building facade [[this is seen by the theatre outer wall being flat against Montcalm Ave., while the Columbia side has the upper auditorium sidewall recessed by many feet away from [[what would be) Columbia Ave.

**DetroitUA** · July-20-10, 04:37 PM

Any update on the theatre? Any more new windows, or mysterious trucks? Work to the exterior?

**esp1986** · July-21-10, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by lingramid

Any update on the theatre? Any more new windows, or mysterious trucks? Work to the exterior?

Another pair of windows had been replaced as of last week. Scaffolding was set up in the ground floor area, but can't see what's going on.

The windows that have been "replaced" look identical to the old ones... the design is the same, but they clearly have new glass and if nothing else, appear to be painted in a coat of white primer.

This is another Andrew Moore photo of the theatre lobby...
http://arthag.typepad.com/.a/6a01157...f8c6970b-800wi

the lobby has clearly been cleaned up and you can see the lights on in the building in the background. the lobby is clearly the most dilapidated part of the building, judging from this photo.

**mcsdetroitfriend** · July-21-10, 07:36 AM

Pics!?!?!?

**Gistok** · July-21-10, 03:12 PM

Thanks for the pic esp1986.

That image is of the heavily damaged [[inner) Rotunda Lobby. It connects the office tower and Outer Lobby with the auditorium. Since the Outer Lobby is within the office tower, it is the best [[condition wise) of the theatre spaces.

The Rotunda Lobby, like the auditorium itself, has its' own roof, and it has received the most water damage. Fortunately, the ceiling to this space had no ornate plasterwork [[it used to have a large fancy chandelier). The fancy plasterwork of the sidewalls was repeated [[same design) on each side of the rotunda. So if enough of one of the sides of this space is preserved, it could be used to recreate the plasterwork for each side of the rotunda.

The Rotunda Lobby was the space that connected the Outer Lobby with the main floor [[orchestra) level, as well as the staircases to the mezzanine and balcony levels of the theatre, as well as emergency exits.