Southfield trying to become a mini-city like those on Woodward.

**Bham1982** · January-10-13, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

In what way has Ferndale out performed Warren? Any city that boasts a downtown that features a dollar store can't be taken seriously.

Well I guess Paris and Manhattan can't be taken seriously, because they have dollar stores.

Ferndale, while it has problems, has definitely outperformed Warren. Property values are higher, white flight is lower, there's an active downtown, some new construction, better services, and the city doesn't have any slums like Warren [[Van Dyke between 8 Mile & Centerline is pretty slummy).

Shollin · January-10-13, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Well I guess Paris and Manhattan can't be taken seriously, because they have dollar stores.

Ferndale, while it has problems, has definitely outperformed Warren. Property values are higher, white flight is lower, there's an active downtown, some new construction, better services, and the city doesn't have any slums like Warren [[Van Dyke between 8 Mile & Centerline is pretty slummy).

Median housing value in Ferndale is 115,900, Warren is 113,400. Dollar stores are fine, but Paris and Manhattan don't have dollar stores as their focal point.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Warren's services. The police is good, and they have an active blight hotline that actually responds. What are you basing this better service on?

Warren has also had some new construction at 12 and Mound and some development at the Tank Arsenal along with new subdivisions along 10 mile.

White flight started in Ferndale before Warren. Currently they both have similar white populations.

**poobert** · January-10-13, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Median housing value in Ferndale is 115,900, Warren is 113,400. Dollar stores are fine, but Paris and Manhattan don't have dollar stores as their focal point.

I'm not sure what you are talking about with Warren's services. The police is good, and they have an active blight hotline that actually responds. What are you basing this better service on?

Warren has also had some new construction at 12 and Mound and some development at the Tank Arsenal along with new subdivisions along 10 mile.

White flight started in Ferndale before Warren. Currently they both have similar white populations.

Whit

Can somebody please turn off the Fouts bot? It's malfunctioning again.

Shollin · January-10-13, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Can somebody please turn off the Fouts bot? It's malfunctioning again.

No War'n? No bubba spraycheese? No 7 mile and Hayes? I'm dissappointed.

By the way, I'm not a Fouts supporter or detracter.

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 03:36 PM

RE: Southfield not being "Desirable" as in the past. It is true that Southfield was fashionable and the place to be up to about the mid-80s when the migratory "light seeking" population began heading for Farmington instead, then Novi. However, since then, Southfield has taken steps to increase desirability and add population density in the area of the suggested City Center. There are some nice condos and townhouses, with food and services in walking distance between Ten Mile and Eleven Mile along Evergreen, some built in the past ten years with capacity to add more. The neighborhoods to the east are stable and fairly dense, and just north on the east side of Evergreen, there are community gardens, civic center with many activities, rec center, pool, nature park, golf course, world class library. There are plenty of reasons to live near there and it is walkable as it stands. Living in the quadrants to the south and north, it is less walkable but still accessible and with plenty of parking to allow walking within the area.

**nain rouge** · January-10-13, 03:52 PM

We you don't have any urban history, you don't have the history and culture to fuel a "downtown". Any downtown Southfield creates will be an antiseptic hell populated by Jimmy John's, Five Guys Burgers & Fries, Starbucks, and etc. It's where your soul will go to die. If you don't think old buildings and the rich history of Woodward have much to do with downtown Ferndale's success - that it was accomplished simply by removing a lane along 9 Mile and throwing in a dollar store - well, you're dead wrong.

Downtown Southfield has about as much potential as downtown Troy and downtown Warren did when both were attempted.

**nain rouge** · January-10-13, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

...civic center with many activities, rec center, pool, nature park, golf course, world class library...

WAIT! Stop the presses, people... Southfield has a civic center where old people can square dance and a public pool where old people can swim. Oh, I we were so wrong to question it! Does Warren have a pool or library? What about Troy?

Southfield is a veritable urban mecca!

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 04:04 PM

Lots of kids swim there and the rec center is used by families. Maybe not singles, yet.

As for history, well, it is a rural history, that's for sure. Southfield was farms and summer cottages right up into the 50s. There is a log cabin on Lahser built as a summer cottage in 1939, now a law office. Just north of the Civic Center is a church that began in 1838, the current building dates from 1861. http://www.reformed.com/history.php

It isn't an urban or automobile history, though there are some older auto executive homes in Southfield.

I'd have to agree that a dense far reaching downtown is not likely to happen, but a nice local community area that has easy walking access to dining and recreation is pretty close to happening. But where is the grocery store [[I ask again, rhetorically)?

**Bham1982** · January-10-13, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

There are plenty of reasons to live near there and it is walkable as it stands.

I don't think you can make a straight-faced argument that Southfield is walkable, really anywhere in Southfield. Yes, there are some sidewalks, and you can walk within subdivisions, but Southfield is pretty pedestrian hostile.

I mean, if Southfield is walkable, then Bloomfield Township is equally walkable [[since all main streets have sidewalks).

I agree that Southfield has some nice amenities, but the fact is that it isn't that desirable. It has low residential values [[despite pretty nice housing stock), the schools suck, and property taxes are sky high.

**gameguy56** · January-10-13, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

[[despite pretty nice housing stock)

All the nice homes are in Lathrup. And it's a real shame that southfield road through Lathrup Village is so utterly pathetic.

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 04:09 PM

You haven't looked in Washington Heights.

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 04:10 PM

We are not talking about the whole city being walkable, it just isn't. But the area surrounding the Civic Center that is the subject of this thread IS walkable now, though it needs improvement.

**D_Town** · January-10-13, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

It has low residential values [[despite pretty nice housing stock), the schools suck, and property taxes are sky high.

I personally think the city has one of the [[if not the best) best housing stock in Metro Detroit. It has homes from 20's tudor style, 60's modern, 70's colonial, and 90's/00's McMansions

**gameguy56** · January-10-13, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by D_Town

I personally think the city has one of the [[if not the best) best housing stock in Metro Detroit. It has homes from 20's tudor style, 60's modern, 70's colonial, and 90's/00's McMansions

Serously? The housing in Southfield is one of the best examples of nasty postwar sprawl. Best housing stock for your money is in 48230, imho.

**Bham1982** · January-10-13, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by gameguy56

All the nice homes are in Lathrup. And it's a real shame that southfield road through Lathrup Village is so utterly pathetic.

There's also some nice mid-century housing in far Western Southfield, particuarly by the Rouge, and also in the north, close to Beverly Hills and Country Day School.

Shollin · January-10-13, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by nain rouge

WAIT! Stop the presses, people... Southfield has a civic center where old people can square dance and a public pool where old people can swim. Oh, I we were so wrong to question it! Does Warren have a pool or library? What about Troy?

Southfield is a veritable urban mecca![/COLOR]

Warren has a pool and a fountain. I didn't know only seniors go swimming. I guess the kids playing in the Warren fountain is a mirage? who cares about seniors anyways. We just need to focus on young, white couples.

Warren also has a library. Its brand new actually.

**nain rouge** · January-10-13, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

Warren has a pool and a fountain. I didn't know only seniors go swimming. I guess the kids playing in the Warren fountain is a mirage? who cares about seniors anyways. We just need to focus on young, white couples.

Warren also has a library. Its brand new actually.

I live in Warren, so I'm well aware of that. Obviously, I was being a bit hyperbolic with my original comment. To be more accurate, such amenities are generally preferred by old people and - yes - couples with children. Joe & Jane Hipster in Royal Oak aren't going to spend Friday evening at the community pool, and they'd rather go to Barnes & Noble or John K. King than the library.

Bottom line, the people that care about community pools, libraries, and etc. usually aren't all that interested in urban living or "walkable" neighborhoods. Oh sure, they might think it's nice, but they're going to value schools, big yards for their kids to play in, and safety MUCH, MUCH more.

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 05:54 PM

Southfield has great housing, upscale homes balanced with smaller affordable homes, and some cheapie houses. If all you look at is Shiawassee area, you need to look at some other areas. Washington Heights was built by wealthy UMC professionals and has many unique owner built homes, no tract types at all. Over by Shaarey Zedek there are very beautiful neighborhoods. And more. If you haven't seen great housing in Southfield, you have not been looking in the right places.

**D_Town** · January-10-13, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by gazhekwe

Southfield has great housing, upscale homes balanced with smaller affordable homes, and some cheapie houses. If all you look at is Shiawassee area, you need to look at some other areas. Washington Heights was built by wealthy UMC professionals and has many unique owner built homes, no tract types at all. Over by Shaarey Zedek there are very beautiful neighborhoods. And more. If you haven't seen great housing in Southfield, you have not been looking in the right places.

Don't forget about The Ravines and some of the hidden large homes between southfield rd and greenfield

**gazhekwe** · January-10-13, 07:20 PM

Agree about the Ravines and that there are hidden premium neighborhoods with a superb variety of styles. Sharon Meadows, Washington Heights, the area along Evergreen north of 12 Mile both east and west, along Bell Road, along Southfield on the east side.

I think I have some pix, let's see:

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**Cincinnati_Kid** · January-10-13, 07:33 PM

So why the Southfield bashing? I always thought of it as being one of the better outer ring suburbs, with a nice mix of housing. After all, Southfield and Oak Park were the first suburbs that actually accepted blacks to move there. Taxes are the only negative I can see. They have the highest property taxes in Oakland County, which is crazy when compared to Birmingham, West Bloomfield, Berkley etc.......

**poobert** · January-10-13, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shollin

No War'n? No bubba spraycheese? No 7 mile and Hayes? I'm dissappointed.

By the way, I'm not a Fouts supporter or detracter.

The War'n thing isn't an insult. It's how we - including myself - talk. Saying "Warren" in the Queen's English sounds a lot less than our fast-talking, slurring, nasally Midwestern ways, which sounds more like "War'n". Still, I'm glad you're a fan of my material.

Anyway, this thread kind of encapsulates what is wrong with our region being almost entirely suburban.

So some past-its-prime suburb comes up with some goofy scheme to make its postwar downtown like one of them big cities. It's like a middle-aged woman getting a tramp stamp and trying to go out to the clubs with her college-aged daughters. Just not gonna work.

So then, here we sit, trying to convince each other, of all people, unsuccessfully, that Bloomingfielddale Heights Shores or wherever isn't actually shitty, that if you go down this one street, there's a couple split levels from the ye old 1950s. The thing is, most of the suburbs here aren't actually shitty. They're just of the middling sort. The problem is that there is some 50 or so of the middling sort! Oh, and all 50 have their own libraries, government, police, you name it. Then there's like 6 really nice ones, and 6 really shitty ones. Problem is, the old folks are dying off, and the young folks are moving away. Now we have to fill up all these middling places.

Instead of doing something regional that makes sense, like rail up the Woodward Corridor, each little kingdom is instead going to come up with nutty snake oil schemes like old-tymey street lamps and moving Halloween.

I had friends move here from New Orleans [[which has essentially 1 suburb) who were so baffled by all the suburbs and all the [[dis)information out there on them they just moved to downtown Detroit. They hated the region and moved away. That's Pure Michigan.

**D_Town** · January-10-13, 09:32 PM

Do they have any plans like this for the Northland area? That area has not aged well at all.

**Scottathew** · January-10-13, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by poobert

Can somebody please turn off the Fouts bot? It's malfunctioning again.

Fouts is an idiot, total idiot.

That said, Warren has pretty good city services. Police have declined a little bit. WPD used to respond to any incident very quickly. Now the more minor incidents [[noise complaints, etc...) don't get the same response. However, any kind of major crime [[burglary, robbery, violence) get swift responses.

I don't know if that median housing value is true though. My house was purchased for 155K, and is now worth about 50K.

Shollin · January-10-13, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by 48091

Fouts is an idiot, total idiot.

That said, Warren has pretty good city services. Police have declined a little bit. WPD used to respond to any incident very quickly. Now the more minor incidents [[noise complaints, etc...) don't get the same response. However, any kind of major crime [[burglary, robbery, violence) get swift responses.

I don't know if that median housing value is true though. My house was purchased for 155K, and is now worth about 50K.

The value is from the 2010 census. If you live in the same zip code as your username, south Warren housing has declined more than north Warren. In 48093, 48092, and 48088, there is hardly anything at 50 or below. I also feel the Ferndale price is inflated as well. There's plenty of housing in Ferndale under 100k.