Should we even try downtown retail?

[DetroitPlanner]

I have a secondary question concerning downtown retail that maybe DetroitPlanner, or someone involved in commercial real estate can answer....

What sizes of retail space are available downtown? I'm working off memory here, but my impression of downtown retail space is that they tended to be quite large, as befitting the retail footprint of 30 or 40 years ago.

Large commercial spaces may have been the "thing" back in the day, but not now. You don't see 3600 sq. ft. shoe stores anymore [[for example), and I'm wondering if the size of available spaces might hinder the growth of the type of retail that would serve the downtown residential/office worker customer.

That is really not much of a concern. You can cut up the old stores if they are too big; or join them if they are too small. I am sure the owners would work with anyone to ensure the footprint is of a size that ensures profitability as the last thing the landlord wants are stores that open for six months then shut down right away. The old Woolworth's for example is not cut up into two spaces; one for Somerset and another for the D hive/welcome center.

FWIW I'm hardly a retail expert. I deal mostly with infrastructure. Both however require a fair amount of demographics and the modeling of human geography. Retail is not my bag; I specialize in transportation; [[transit, roads, bicycle networks, freight, water and poop!). You don't build roads where no one is going to use them; and you don't build stores that won't meet a demand either.

[douglasm]

Gistok......

......I must have suffered a brain cramp. I worked at both Mary Jane and Crosby Shoes downtown, and the main level sq. ft. of both was reletively small, but in the case of Mary Jane, National Shoe [[parent corporation) rented all 4 floors of the building.

DetroitPlanner.....

......I have a fair amount of retail behind me [[40 years or so including some store location work), and have found most of your commentary and analysis to be spot on. Both demographics and traffic flow have a lot to do with store location, and information from your field can be easily moved to many others, including retail placement.

[Gistok]

Douglasm, in the Baker's Shoe Store, I remember we also stored shoe stock in the basement, and kept seasonal items on the closed second floor.

It was a unique experience going higher into the building... the 2nd floor was similar to the first... with shelves and showcases... except it appeared abandoned [[except for the extra stock we kept there). And when you climbed higher into the 7 twilight lit floors above 2 [[I only went to 3 and 4)... the higher you went... the more pigeon poop you saw!

[douglasm]

Gistok.....

.....I guess we're dating ourselves badly here. At Mary Jane, we had casuals and Childrens in the basement and dress shoes on the main level [[both sales levels) with more stock [[mostly tintables) on the 3rd floor, and stored showcases and other display items on the 4th.

I guess what I'm wondering is would landlords [[especially on Woodward) just rent out the main floor, and if so, what could be done with the upper 3 or 4 floors. There would be too few units in building like that to convert into apartments....you can spread costs better if you're converting a 35 story building than a 4 story one......with no separate outside access.

[Bham1982]

The retailers require parking? Or the local zoning regulations require parking?

The answer is both.

Example 1- a new construction retail center in Chicago has minimum parking requirements, because the city knows a retail center built without this will destroy the quality of life for its neighbors [[illegal parking, circling blocks causing congestion, taking spots from residents), and will be a burden from a property tax perspective [[national retailers will not sign a lease without dedicated parking, which depresses valuations).

Example 2- existing or converted retail space does not necessarily require parking, but the site is unleasable without parking provisions. When Eataly [[an Italian-oriented supermarket) signed its lease for a new store in downtown Chicago, it did not do so until it had secured an agreement with an adjacent garage for 1,000 dedicated free parking spaces for its customers.

FWIW, I've been to that Target store in downtown Minneapolis. I don't remember any damn parking lot.

Minneapolis Target has free parking in adjacent garage.

Despite numerous examples to the contrary, you keep insisting that New York is some inexplicable exception to inviolate Laws of the Universe that worship cars. I'm going to choose to believe my own eyes and experiences over your dated propagandist position.

If you could tell us just one of these "numerous examples to the contrary", then let us know. You have yet to cite an example of downtown big box without parking.

[mwilbert]

I guess what I'm wondering is would landlords [[especially on Woodward) just rent out the main floor, and if so, what could be done with the upper 3 or 4 floors. There would be too few units in building like that to convert into apartments....you can spread costs better if you're converting a 35 story building than a 4 story one......with no separate outside access.

The upper floors' best use is clearly residential, but as you note there would be some architectural challenges. You might be able to create a common entrance for the upper floors of multiple adjoining buildings, but fire codes could make that difficult. Or you could possibly have the residential entrances in the rear if the stores didn't need the full depth.

Need some creative architects, and rental rates that make it worthwhile.

[runnerXT]

The answer is both.

Example 1- a new construction retail center in Chicago has minimum parking requirements, because the city knows a retail center built without this will destroy the quality of life for its neighbors [[illegal parking, circling blocks causing congestion, taking spots from residents), and will be a burden from a property tax perspective [[national retailers will not sign a lease without dedicated parking, which depresses valuations).

Example 2- existing or converted retail space does not necessarily require parking, but the site is unleasable without parking provisions. When Eataly [[an Italian-oriented supermarket) signed its lease for a new store in downtown Chicago, it did not do so until it had secured an agreement with an adjacent garage for 1,000 dedicated free parking spaces for its customers.



Minneapolis Target has free parking in adjacent garage.



If you could tell us just one of these "numerous examples to the contrary", then let us know. You have yet to cite an example of downtown big box without parking.

Thats not true. A simple Google search confirmed that. As much as I don't like Chicago your parking stories are a bit much about this city. I often stay with my girlfriend who lives in Lakeview for periods of time including now. I walk everywhere and take the CTA to downotnw on the 146 express bus which is packed btw. Why would I pay $30 to park in downtown when the express bus is good. It's quite different here then DDOT. Even though I drove from Detroit to Chicago I never touch my car while here. And from appearances on the number of people walking around Lakeview until even late night and the absolute packed trains and busses at rush hour and the busy service during non rush hour.

There is a very urban lifestyle in PARTS of Chicago. The Loop up through the northside in the densly packed area has a larger population the Detroit in like 1/8 the amount of land area.

Chicago area offers both lifestyles in HUGE numbers. Car and car free or a little car and mostly CTA and walk.

Eataly made a deal with a 1000 parking space garage nearby. There is not 1000 dedicated parking spaces for Eataly. Spend $20 inside Eataly and receive free parking for an hour or three hours for $10. This is for their opening.


And nearby shopping complex on Michigan ave for December, members of The Shops at North Bridge's loyalty program who spend $250 in a day will receive three hours free parking anytime in that month.

1) Your parking lot stories and people driving to the supermarket. In many parts of Chicago people walk to the super market , don't take the bus or drive, whether the supermarket has parking or not.

2) You exaggerate people driving into the Loop. There are over half a million jobs in the Loop area and half the regions office space is in the Loop. Metra - suburb to city train, gives 300,000 rides on an average weekday. Then there are all the stores, restaurants. Many people that work in the Loop and live in the neighborhoods take the CTA to get to downtown for work or entertainment. Sure some drive but a cab is cheaper and certainly the CTA is way cheaper. You stats for neighborhoods like Lincoln Park include people who travel to the outlying areas or burbs from the central neighborhoods and driving for work. The CTA gives more rides then the rest of the midwest combined.

3) If I spend half a million on a condo I would like parking to. But you are overlooking that because someone has a car that doesn't mean they don't ever walk anywhere in the neighborhood and always drive everywhere. Ha!

[stasu1213]

That is really not much of a concern. You can cut up the old stores if they are too big; or join them if they are too small. I am sure the owners would work with anyone to ensure the footprint is of a size that ensures profitability as the last thing the landlord wants are stores that open for six months then shut down right away. The old Woolworth's for example is not cut up into two spaces; one for Somerset and another for the D hive/welcome center.

FWIW I'm hardly a retail expert. I deal mostly with infrastructure. Both however require a fair amount of demographics and the modeling of human geography. Retail is not my bag; I specialize in transportation; [[transit, roads, bicycle networks, freight, water and poop!). You don't build roads where no one is going to use them; and you don't build stores that won't meet a demand either.

Detroit Planner what do you think would be good for downtown.? How do you think downtown Detroit shpuld be?

[douglasm]

It's a little difficult to dig out population data for downtown proper. A study in early 2013 shows the population at about 35,000 but that includes Midtown, Corktown and a lot of areas I wouldn't consider "downtown".

http://www.detroitsevenpointtwo.com/...fullreport.pdf

As I understand "downtown", the current borders appears to be the river on the south, the Lodge on the west, the Fisher on the north, and the Chrysler spur on the east, and near as I can dig up, the resident population in that core is about 5,000 or so. I would think that would have to double to support a retail core, but with the building conversion that's been going on, I don't see any problem with doing that in the near future.

I don't know how many office workers there are downtown, but the one major problem with office workers and retail is that you get basically 3 selling windows. One when they come to work, one at lunch time and one when they get off work. Otherwise, from a retail perspective, it's dead so I'm not really sure how you would service that market.

So what to do? About 15 years ago, Seattle made a concerted effort to "repopulate" it's downtown core, with the downtown residential population increasing from about 25,000 to almost 60,000. An attempt to do the same thing in downtown Detroit would hurt a bit. Bring in the people, and the businesses will follow.

Second, a core retail area should be focused on. I'm not that familiar with downtown Detroit anymore, I worked downtown in the late 60's and early 70's, but instead of having one store here, and one store there, a business area should grow organically from a central base. Cluster the shops together so one business draw creates foot traffic for other businesses....the shopping center principle.....and then let the business district grow out from that core.

Below is a study done by the Downtown Seattle Association concerning the benefits of density in downtown Seattle. It's an interesting read, and something like this should be undertaken in Detroit.

http://www.downtownseattle.com/asset...ty-Report1.pdf

I'm no expert either, but I've retailed long enough to have a half an idea of what probably should be done to encourage retail. Anyone got a better idea? There's got to be one and I'd like to hear it.

[stasu1213]

It's a little difficult to dig out population data for downtown proper. A study in early 2013 shows the population at about 35,000 but that includes Midtown, Corktown and a lot of areas I wouldn't consider "downtown".

http://www.detroitsevenpointtwo.com/...fullreport.pdf

As I understand "downtown", the current borders appears to be the river on the south, the Lodge on the west, the Fisher on the north, and the Chrysler spur on the east, and near as I can dig up, the resident population in that core is about 5,000 or so. I would think that would have to double to support a retail core, but with the building conversion that's been going on, I don't see any problem with doing that in the near future.

I don't know how many office workers there are downtown, but the one major problem with office workers and retail is that you get basically 3 selling windows. One when they come to work, one at lunch time and one when they get off work. Otherwise, from a retail perspective, it's dead so I'm not really sure how you would service that market.

So what to do? About 15 years ago, Seattle made a concerted effort to "repopulate" it's downtown core, with the downtown residential population increasing from about 25,000 to almost 60,000. An attempt to do the same thing in downtown Detroit would hurt a bit. Bring in the people, and the businesses will follow.

Second, a core retail area should be focused on. I'm not that familiar with downtown Detroit anymore, I worked downtown in the late 60's and early 70's, but instead of having one store here, and one store there, a business area should grow organically from a central base. Cluster the shops together so one business draw creates foot traffic for other businesses....the shopping center principle.....and then let the business district grow out from that core.

Below is a study done by the Downtown Seattle Association concerning the benefits of density in downtown Seattle. It's an interesting read, and something like this should be undertaken in Detroit.

http://www.downtownseattle.com/asset...ty-Report1.pdf

I'm no expert either, but I've retailed long enough to have a half an idea of what probably should be done to encourage retail. Anyone got a better idea? There's got to be one and I'd like to hear it.

What had made downtown Detroit successful 50 to 70 yrs ago? There were the crowd that went to wrk, took lunch breaks, and went home. That crowd had patronized the stores in the area back then. What would be the difference now.

[douglasm]

This is NOT 1950 and you should know that the shopping landscape has changed in "50 to 70 years". Currently, how many major department stores have their only location in Downtown Detroit? I'd be willing to bet you could trace the start of the decline of downtown to the opening of Northland Center in 1954.

By the late 50's the retail picture had changed. I'd lay odds that Northland played a big hand in the closing of Kern's [[1959), and the move by Crowley Milner to open suburban locations at about the same time.

[mwilbert]

I don't know how many office workers there are downtown, but the one major problem with office workers and retail is that you get basically 3 selling windows. One when they come to work, one at lunch time and one when they get off work. Otherwise, from a retail perspective, it's dead so I'm not really sure how you would service that market.

This is true, but not as bad as it sounds because everybody doesn't take lunch or leave work at the same time.

However, I think downtown residents are the more important customers, and, in general, retail follows population. It seems clear there is good demand for downtown living in Detroit, the question is whether it exists at the rents needed to create a lot more residences. Right now the downtown population is constrained by the fact that rents aren't high enough for people to build or renovate without tax credits, and there are only so many of those available.

[Bham1982]

Thats not true. A simple Google search confirmed that.

Can you elaborate on the "simple Google search" that led you to conclude that retail in Chicago doesn't come with free parking? As you posted, Eataly has free parking. I never claimed that Michigan Ave. has free parking. In fact I said the opposite.

The rest of your rambling anecdotes about your girlfriend and Lakeview lead me to believe you're posting in the wrong thread, or responding to someone else. I never wrote a thing about people driving into the Loop or never walking on the sidewalk. I posted citywide data on commute share, which is overwhelmingly car-oriented.

[runnerXT]

A simple google search on your claim Eataly has 1000 spots of free dedicated parking.

Eataly made a deal with a 1000 parking space garage nearby. There is not 1000 dedicated parking spaces for Eataly. Spend $20 inside Eataly and receive free parking for an hour or three hours for $10. This is for their opening.

Since you made that one really wrong claim how many others are there?


I brought up this becaue you just go on and on about parking:

And nearby shopping complex on Michigan ave for December, members of The Shops at North Bridge's loyalty program who spend $250 in a day will receive three hours free parking anytime in that month.

Who in their right mind would commute by car from the Northside neighborhoods for that?


I brought up Metra commuter rail suburban commuters number in the hundreds of thousands to the Loop each work day.

People take 300,000 rides on the CTA to downtown as a destination each weekday on average. CTA is the City mostly.

I wasn't posting in the wrong thread. I was pointing out the transit and walking driving into the Loop and the dense Northside neighborhoods.

My point there is two Chicago's. One for the car life style and one for the walk and transit lifestyle. They are both big in numbers. In fact the CTA gives more rides then every other major city and small town combined in the midwest. There are 60 million people in the midwest and only 2.7 million in Chicago which is basically the CTA territory

You focus on one, the driving life style.

Never thought I would defend Chicago.

[Bham1982]

A simple google search on your claim Eataly has 1000 spots of free dedicated parking.

Yes, and what is your point? Eataly does have an agreement for 1000 free parking spaces, as you confirm.

Are you arguing over the semantics of parking validation? You require validation in congested areas, to remove the free rider phenomenon, like at Greektown Casino. You aren't going to pay for those who aren't customers. Parking spaces are expensive.

I brought up Metra commuter rail suburban commuters number in the hundreds of thousands to the Loop each work day.

People take 300,000 rides on the CTA to downtown as a destination each weekday on average. CTA is the City mostly.

Those are not particularly strong numbers. I already posted Census vehicle ownership and transit share. Chicagoans mostly own cars and use them for commuting. In any case, not really relevant.

My point there is two Chicago's. One for the car life style and one for the walk and transit lifestyle.

Yes, but that was my original point- in a city with pretty good transit options there is only one type of big box retail- with parking. There is no big box for "the walk and transit lifestyle." If there were, there would be no dedicated parking. Drivers dominate, even in Chicago.

[runnerXT]

Ok think about want about Eataly and parking.

But yeah those aren't strong numbers at all lol you posted.

Eliminate the CTA! That 600,00 jobs in the Loop area and the thousands of restaurants and all those huge retail stores can exist with what one million parking spaces in a few square miles in the Loop. Rip apart the dense Northside neighborhoods and make parking spots! I'm sure after that those neighborhoods will become even more desirable.

Where are the young educated moving to in Chicago? Where is their job preference location? Where are the companies moving stuff to. Half the regions office space is in the Loop area.

You aren't getting it. I am saying there are two Chicago's. One for each life style. Eliminate one, the transit and walking side which is about the size of the population Detroit, and like half of suburban Detroit's young won't be moving here any more and Chicago becomes just another Cleveland.

Lighten up on Chicago and cars lol.

[Bham1982]

Ok think about what about Eataly and parking.

Thank you. If you don't need drivers, you don't need parking. In the U.S., excepting NYC, you generally do.

But yeah those aren't strong numbers at all lol you posted.

For a big system in a big urban city, Chicago's numbers are less-than-impressive. Toronto has twice the ridership with a much smaller urban core and only two rail lines. NYC has something like 15x the ridership.

People move to Chicago for a few years after college. They generally don't stay. Chicago has pretty bad population losses too.

And they're there for jobs, friends, and getting laid, not because they don't like cars.

[runnerXT]

For better or worse population losses of it's poor.

But otherwise great points lol! It's all true what you say....

Good luck to you and your agenda

[Bham1982]

For better or worse population losses of it's poor.

Nope. Chicago's population losses are primarily among the middle class and over-30 and educated.

That's why CPS enrollment is 85% from families below the poverty line, about the same as Detroit.

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit Planner what do you think would be good for downtown.? How do you think downtown Detroit shpuld be?

Stores that fulfill some of the basic needs of those who live and work downtown is where I would start. Higher end or unique boutiques would come later. I'd like to see a Sander's or a Buddy's downtown. Both Buddy's and Sanders will appeal to the main customers as well as to those who are downtown for games or conventions.

[stasu1213]

Stores that fulfill some of the basic needs of those who live and work downtown is where I would start. Higher end or unique boutiques would come later. I'd like to see a Sander's or a Buddy's downtown. Both Buddy's and Sanders will appeal to the main customers as well as to those who are downtown for games or conventions.

Many out of towners just want to know where they could buy a pair of sneakers or women asking where they could buy something to wear

[DetroitPlanner]

Many out of towners just want to know where they could buy a pair of sneakers or women asking where they could buy something to wear

I've worked downtown for 30 years and have never had an out of towner ask me where they could buy sneakers! Look, if sneakers and dresses were items people were looking for, why on earth are there not more places downtown to buy them? You have a pretty decent market with just the workers and folks who live downtown. What you don't have is a market study that explains to retailers what that market can do the their bottom line.

[stasu1213]

I've worked downtown for
30 years and have never had an out of towner ask me where they could buy sneakers! Look, if sneakers and dresses were items people were looking for, why on earth are there not more places downtown to buy them? You have a pretty decent market with just the workers and folks who live downtown. What you don't have is a market study that explains to retailers what that market can do the their bottom line.

I am glad that the owners of Moosejaw doesnt think the way that you do

[bailey]

I am glad that the owners of Moosejaw doesnt think the way that you do

Moosejaw is still a "pop up" temporary store. Its the smallest in the chain. The rent is subsidized by Rock and the place is only open 4 days a week. I'm glad they're there too, but lets not pretend they are there without significant assistance.... check back once the subsidies stop.

[Spartan]

Moosejaw is still a "pop up" temporary store. Its the smallest in the chain. The rent is subsidized by Rock and the place is only open 4 days a week. I'm glad they're there too, but lets not pretend they are there without significant assistance.... check back once the subsidies stop.

Uh, it's not a "pop up" temporary store. They are open year-round and signed a long-term lease a year ago after their "pop up" phase. A small store, subsidy or not, doesn't make it a pop up.