Should we even try downtown retail?

[esp1986]

Sure they have choice. They have transit in Chicago and SF. But they choose to drive.

It's not that they CHOOSE to drive... many of them still have jobs in the suburbs that they have to get to, and transit doesn't take them there.

As I said, it's the people with the money that are dictating people's habits. Businesses locate in the suburbs for the lower property taxes. Property taxes that, in the city, would help pay for transit. Essentially, these businesses are passing the cost of getting around to their workers, many who cannot afford the cost of a car, which is a lot more than everyone chipping in for transit.

Young people want to live in the city where it's easy to get around without having to have a car, but they can't control where the jobs are. Sure, there are some that WANT to have cars and do. For them you have to have parking, absolutely. I am more getting at the point you made about 2013 being about big-box and auto-topia. That was more 2005. People are moving back to cities. Maybe not in droves, but they are. When people hit a certain age, they tend to move out to the suburbs to raise a family, but younger people are showing a renewed desire to be in the city. Not the auto centric suburbs.

I don't disagree with the fact that they have cars. I realize that, you arrogant bastard. All i'm saying is it isn't entirely their choice, many times, out of necessity.

If you offered many people a FREE CAR... yeah, they'd take it. It's a great convenience to have when you absolutely need it, but the rest of the time, it's a money pit that sits. Especially if you live in a city where insurance rates are through the roof.

[Cliffy]

More the later than the former. I can't see anyone not wanting a car. If someone offered these kids a brand new car they would jump on it. In the giant race to the bottom they are a very tough thing to rationalize.

Agreed. I can't imagine what a pain in the ass it would be to go to Costco without a car. To go grocery shopping without a car. To wait for a bus on days like today. I'm a millennial and I love cars. They are a necessity especially in areas where the weather sucks [[Detroit). If you can't afford a car in Michigan then you sure as hell aren't going to afford an apartment in NYC or Chicago.

[stasu1213]

Many of the young people commute by bicycle. Many had moved to areas closer to their jobs such as Lafayette Park, Midtown, or Downtown where they have grocery stores and other amenities nearby. There is a trend among some younger adults. Refusing to buy a car. They find it cost efficient not to have one. A person could afford to rent an apartment in Chicago or New York and not afford to have a car in Detroit. Gas, insurance, monthly notes, repairs all add up to being much more expensive than renting a one bedroom in Chicago or Manhattan. Dont forget to add your rent in Detroit along with the expensive car care

[erikd]

It's not that they CHOOSE to drive... many of them still have jobs in the suburbs that they have to get to, and transit doesn't take them there.

If you offered many people a FREE CAR... yeah, they'd take it. It's a great convenience to have when you absolutely need it, but the rest of the time, it's a money pit that sits. Especially if you live in a city where insurance rates are through the roof.

You would be surprised at how differently the younger generation thinks.

I bought a new car three years ago, and the old beater that had been driving wasn't worth more than about $500, so I gave it to a friend of mine who had a teenaged boy of 15-16 years old. When I was 16, I was given a shitty old Ford that had been handed down to me. It was a beater, but it was still a car and it allowed me to drive to work and get around.

Much to their surprise, this teenaged boy had no interest in the free car that had been gifted to him. Even with a free car in the driveway, he preferred to take the bus to get to school, work, and visit his girlfriend.

Three years later, that car is still sitting in the driveway unused, because he has no interest in having a car. His peers understand him, and many of them are making the same choices, but most of his "elders" [[25+ years of age) think that he is insane, and that something must be wrong with him.

We have been slaves to cars for so many years, most of us can't even comprehend living without them.

Ten years ago, I made a decision to live car-free, and I stuck to it for a few years. I was living and working in downtown Detroit, so I didn't need need a car to get to work, and I was able to get most of the things that I needed on a daily basis within my walking/bus/bike area.

Over the course of my years of car-free living, the biggest problem was not an inability to go shopping and drive home a carload of stuff, it was the social condemnation of not being a car owner.

The assumption of car ownership was so ingrained in our culture, that any person who did not own a car was looked down upon as a failure. As Young MC said in his 1989 hip-hop classic: "you got no money and you got no car, then you got no woman, and there you are."

The vast majority of the 25+ population is completely out of touch and ignorant to the new mindset that is taking hold.

When people say things like "I can't imagine what a pain in the ass it would be to go to Costco without a car", it just makes me wonder why any person would need to go to Costco in the first place. I suppose that if you have an enormous family or if you are buying in bulk for a business, purchasing a carload of stuff from Costco could save you a few bucks, but for the vast majority of people, it doesn't actually work out. You might save a few bucks by buying a pallet of Cheetos in bulk, but most of the time half that shit will go bad before you can use it.

Also, there is this great new business that started about 15-20 years ago called Amazon. They sell basically everything that you could ever want, besides fresh produce, at discount prices, with free shipping. Why would I want to waste my time and money driving to a giant warehouse store when I can get the same stuff delivered to my home without having to drive around and load up a car?

Downtown specialty retail is the future. Regional shopping malls are the past. As the cost of driving and owning a car continues to get more expensive, and median wages continue to decrease, more people will choose to opt out of the auto-centric suburban system, either by choice, or by simple reality.

The 25+ set needs to wake up and realize that the auto-centric, suburban lifestyle is not sustainable, and it simply can not continue on, no matter how much the old people want it to. You may think that kids today don't know anything, but they actually have a better understanding of the future than almost every adult that I have ever met.

[erikd]

If you read my original post to which both of you are posting, you are assuming a lot more than I am. I said you don't see people standing in front of the Costco on Gratiot holding a TV. Most people in the world do not get enourmous televisons, I did not say anything about someone trying to get a washing machine onto a bus. Most TV's under 40" are very carry-able. I have a 32" LED. I would be surprised if this thing weighs over 20 pounds.

The majority of people do buy stuff once every couple of weeks at places like Costco or Meijer. At least more people do this than make daily trips to Kroger or some other grocer. They do this because they percieve that this is the way to save money [[but I disagree as much of the last few miles of delivery costs are transferred to the consumer and the amount of time wasted in long lines or walking around enormous stores can negate those savings).

You folks are talking about a world the simply does not exist in the United States anymore outside of small parts of New York or Chicago.

You are correct when you say that the majority of people do buy stuff at places like Costco and Meijer, and they do it because they think it saves them money. I don't disagree with your assertions about what the majority wants or desires, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

There is a very significant portion of the population that wants to live in a thriving city, and not in a cookie-cutter suburb. Even if the pro-city people only comprise 20% of the population, that is still a million people out of the roughly 5 million population of metro Detroit.

The desire to attract the most low-level, run-of-the-mill, dreck that is found on every shitty suburban intersection, is a huge barrier to attracting people and business to our city. Detroit has so much more to offer than the average bland suburb, but most of us just don't see the it.

New York and Chicago don't have a thriving urban environments because the people who are born and raised there are genetically different than the people of Detroit, they have thriving urban environments because they built them.

Contrary to popular belief, Detroiters are just like people from Chicago or New York, we just live in a place and in a system that mostly devalues us as a people. If you go to Campus Martius, Eastern Market, or the Riverwalk, you can see first hand how well good urbanism works in Detroit. If you go to the sea of shitty parking lots behind the Fox Theater, you will see urban desolation that winds up on documentaries about how shitty Detroit is.

Quality urban places thrive in every city, and shitty urban places decline in every city. Good is good, and bad is bad, and it doesn't matter if it's in Detroit or Chicago.

[Bham1982]

It's not that they CHOOSE to drive... many of them still have jobs in the suburbs that they have to get to, and transit doesn't take them there.

I disagree with your explanation of the "why" [[most Chicago downtown dwellers aren't mostly working, shopping, and dining in the sprawling burbs), and the fact that nothing gets built in downtown Chicago without plenty of parking shows that people use their cars for city living too.

But my point is that it's irrelevant. The "why" doesn't matter; we just know you need parking, even in the city center. Nothing gets financed or leased without lots of parking.

[Bham1982]

The vast majority of the 25+ population is completely out of touch and ignorant to the new mindset that is taking hold.

Perhaps the "completely out of touch" 26 year old fogies are relying on actual Census data that completely contradicts your claims, rather than relying on random anecdotes from some dude on the internet.

[esp1986]

I disagree with your explanation of the "why" [[most Chicago downtown dwellers aren't mostly working, shopping, and dining in the sprawling burbs), and the fact that nothing gets built in downtown Chicago without plenty of parking shows that people use their cars for city living too.

But my point is that it's irrelevant. The "why" doesn't matter; we just know you need parking, even in the city center. Nothing gets financed or leased without lots of parking.

The reason why everything in Downtown Chicago gets built with parking is for commuters from the suburbs. Some people in the city use cars to get to work, but not an obnoxious number. The reason for the parking downtown, is the same as it is here. For suburbanites. A lot of families have one car in the city. Not two, but one, so they can make those trips to the suburbs and some outlying parts of the city. It's more a convenience thing, but it in no way is like Detroit where everyone HAS TO have a car to go anywhere. It is purely out of convenience.

[Gistok]

Perhaps the "completely out of touch" 26 year old fogies are relying on actual Census data that completely contradicts your claims, rather than relying on random anecdotes from some dude on the internet.

For once I agree with you.. I have 6 nieces and nephews in that magical under 25 age group... all 6 have cars.

Why do some people who live in downtowns think that they represent not only themselves, but also the other 90+ percent of the people their age??

Also Ericd... your "pallet of Cheetos" analogy of CostCo is not correct [[although I too thought that way for a long time). you can buy MOST items there without having to buy bulk. The pallet is not what is being sold... it's where a lot of items that are being sold... are being sold FROM.

[esp1986]

You would be surprised at how differently the younger generation thinks.

I bought a new car three years ago, and the old beater that had been driving wasn't worth more than about $500, so I gave it to a friend of mine who had a teenaged boy of 15-16 years old. When I was 16, I was given a shitty old Ford that had been handed down to me. It was a beater, but it was still a car and it allowed me to drive to work and get around.

Much to their surprise, this teenaged boy had no interest in the free car that had been gifted to him. Even with a free car in the driveway, he preferred to take the bus to get to school, work, and visit his girlfriend.

Three years later, that car is still sitting in the driveway unused, because he has no interest in having a car. His peers understand him, and many of them are making the same choices, but most of his "elders" [[25+ years of age) think that he is insane, and that something must be wrong with him.

We have been slaves to cars for so many years, most of us can't even comprehend living without them.

Ten years ago, I made a decision to live car-free, and I stuck to it for a few years. I was living and working in downtown Detroit, so I didn't need need a car to get to work, and I was able to get most of the things that I needed on a daily basis within my walking/bus/bike area.

Over the course of my years of car-free living, the biggest problem was not an inability to go shopping and drive home a carload of stuff, it was the social condemnation of not being a car owner.

The assumption of car ownership was so ingrained in our culture, that any person who did not own a car was looked down upon as a failure. As Young MC said in his 1989 hip-hop classic: "you got no money and you got no car, then you got no woman, and there you are."

The vast majority of the 25+ population is completely out of touch and ignorant to the new mindset that is taking hold.

When people say things like "I can't imagine what a pain in the ass it would be to go to Costco without a car", it just makes me wonder why any person would need to go to Costco in the first place. I suppose that if you have an enormous family or if you are buying in bulk for a business, purchasing a carload of stuff from Costco could save you a few bucks, but for the vast majority of people, it doesn't actually work out. You might save a few bucks by buying a pallet of Cheetos in bulk, but most of the time half that shit will go bad before you can use it.

Also, there is this great new business that started about 15-20 years ago called Amazon. They sell basically everything that you could ever want, besides fresh produce, at discount prices, with free shipping. Why would I want to waste my time and money driving to a giant warehouse store when I can get the same stuff delivered to my home without having to drive around and load up a car?

Downtown specialty retail is the future. Regional shopping malls are the past. As the cost of driving and owning a car continues to get more expensive, and median wages continue to decrease, more people will choose to opt out of the auto-centric suburban system, either by choice, or by simple reality.

The 25+ set needs to wake up and realize that the auto-centric, suburban lifestyle is not sustainable, and it simply can not continue on, no matter how much the old people want it to. You may think that kids today don't know anything, but they actually have a better understanding of the future than almost every adult that I have ever met.

Oh, I understand how the younger generation thinks. I am part of the younger generation. I don't want to own a car. It's a waste of time and money. I would much rather ride mass transit and read a book or listen to music. However, there are some young people that would like to have a car for convenience. This is the reason Zipcar is around. Cars are great for convenience, when you need them, but they are quite an expensive luxury if you don't need them everyday.

That's what it boils down to... It's a luxury for city dwellers, old and young. And many city dwellers don't drive them around the city, because parking in a lot of places is so difficult, even when they have their own free parking lot.

[DetroitPlanner]

The reason why everything in Downtown Chicago gets built with parking is for commuters from the suburbs.

B.S. If you live in a suburban area and you work downtown, you drive to the nearest train station. Traffic is horrendous in that town; in fact I'd say from my own experiences LA has better traffic flow [[but it also has HOV lanes like proposed for I-75). There are lots of people who live in places like Lincoln Park and environs who drive downtown for work as they don't see the value in waiting for the bus or train.

[esp1986]

B.S. If you live in a suburban area and you work downtown, you drive to the nearest train station. Traffic is horrendous in that town; in fact I'd say from my own experiences LA has better traffic flow [[but it also has HOV lanes like proposed for I-75). There are lots of people who live in places like Lincoln Park and environs who drive downtown for work as they don't see the value in waiting for the bus or train.

A lot of people do take the train. But there's a reason traffic is so bad... because suburbanites do drive to work. It's not B.S. You can't possibly tell me that all of the traffic on the freeways in Chicago are traveling to Lincoln Park and similar places.

[DetroitPlanner]

A lot of people do take the train. But there's a reason traffic is so bad... because suburbanites do drive to work. It's not B.S. You can't possibly tell me that all of the traffic on the freeways in Chicago are traveling to Lincoln Park and similar places.

Your logic reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote. "Nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded".

Think about it in terms of time and remember that Chicago is a major bottleneck for interstate commerce [[a lot like I-94 is) but on a much larger scale. That is why the freeways there are exponentially larger and slower than ours. Who is logically going to be able to take advantage of the parking? Most of those commuting from the suburbs or those commuting from closer? Lincoln Park is much more well moneyed than those from Palatine or Blue Island. They [[Lincoln Parkers) can better afford the rent to park the car as they are the higher income folks. You can't assume that everything is the same as it is here where all of the rich folks live far from the City. We are definitely an anomaly.

Lets get back to the purpose of the thread. You need to cater your retail to those who work and live downtown. The DDA should be performing a market study and identifying what is underserved. Ultimately this discussion is conjecture without it.

[Bham1982]

The reason why everything in Downtown Chicago gets built with parking is for commuters from the suburbs.

Really? Then why do almost all condos in core Chicago neighborhoods come with parking spaces included? Are those parking spaces all sitting empty and unused?

And then why do all core Chicago grocery stores and big box retail have plenty of free parking? You're claiming its all suburbanites driving in from the sticks to buy their milk and eggs in Lincoln Park and Lakeview and River North? LOL

Those parking spaces are for the locals. Suburbanites working downtown or other visitors aren't a big factor outside the Loop/Michigan Ave.

[Detroitdave]

Yes downtown should try retail . I've lived in LA most of my life and LA is perhaps the only city on the planet more car centric than Detroit .

LA's downtown was also empty after 5pm for decades ! Then they rebuilt the convention center, put in a new arena , started building Apartments like crazy and then the Walt Disney Hall came around and Ralphs ect , .
All the same things that are happening in downtown Detroit , like what Gilbert wants to do at the failed jail and Illitch wants to do up woodward , I think it's just a matter of time and it's happening FAST . I guess we are taking a page out of the pagebook of LA?
Now they are building this .
http://la.curbed.com/archives/2013/1...first_time.php

http://brighamyen.com/2013/11/26/new...long-broadway/

If downtown LA can do this downtown Detroit certainly can.
Outside of NYC ,LA has more shopping than ANY other city , every area and neighborhood in LA has all the same stuff, not always a good thing .

I mean you go to Hollywood, The Grove , Beverly Center, Century City, Beverly Hills ,Santa Monica , Pasadena ,Melrose ,ect
All these place are just a VERY few miles from each other , so people don't have to go downtown , but with all the new construction downtown ,it is needed a,nd if downtown Detroit stays on track downtown retail is def need !

If you read the comments on their pages ,you see some of the same ,things commented about on this thread .

[esp1986]

Really? Then why do almost all condos in core Chicago neighborhoods come with parking spaces included? Are those parking spaces all sitting empty and unused?

And then why do all core Chicago grocery stores and big box retail have plenty of free parking? You're claiming its all suburbanites driving in from the sticks to buy their milk and eggs in Lincoln Park and Lakeview and River North? LOL

Those parking spaces are for the locals. Suburbanites working downtown or other visitors aren't a big factor outside the Loop/Michigan Ave.

It's like you idiots are only reading the part of my post that you want to... And yet you keep asking the same question again and again as if you're not intelligent enough to comprehend an answer.

There are far more suburban people driving downtown to jobs than those from in the city. More people on the outskirts of the city would tend to drive, but demographic wise, those jobs wouldn't typically be in the downtown area. I probably have a dozen friends with condos in Chicago, but only three actually own a car. They are all married, one has it out of convenience, the rest have it to get to their suburban jobs.

Just because they own a car, doesn't mean that they drive it everywhere, because of that little traffic problem that you all seem to bring up. Many people in the city own cars, but it is far from a 1:1 person to car ratio. Getting around the city is far easier via transit, which is why they do it whenever they can.

I don't disagree, there are people that drive to the grocery store. However, the parking lots are so small, you aren't always guaranteed a parking spot, far from 'plenty' of spots. And I wouldn't imagine that suburbanites typically shop at the grocery stores in the heart of the city anyway.

I NEVER suggested that suburbanites buy their groceries at this stores in Lincoln Park. Now you're just putting words into my mouth, metaphorically speaking, so you can comprehend it.

Suburbanites drive to office complexes downtown, where they have ample parking. The 'plenty' of parking you suggest exists, mimics the quantities of people who drive and those who don't. The parking lots tend to be relatively small, but is ample enough for customers that need it.

And it seems like you think I'm arguing that NO ONE in the city drives... Which I'm not. Just not the number you seem to think. Not everyone owns a car. That's what I'm saying. In terms of the masses, very few people own a car. Yes, a lot of the wealthier people who own condos in the city may have a car or two for a family of four. But, I don't know if you realize, Chicago is similar to Detroit, in that a lot of the money in the region is in the suburbs. The city still has far more middle class people than wealthy ones, and even the middle class tend to migrate to the suburbs to raise a family.

The demographics just don't support your logic. Yes, a lot of condo complexes in downtown, Lincoln Park, etc. have parking, but the majority of Chicago's population lives in Brownstones and other similar apartment buildings, with no parking, but very viable transit.

[Dan Wesson]

Online shopping has doomed all substantial brick and mortar retail.

[Bham1982]

There are far more suburban people driving downtown to jobs than those from in the city.

I don't know if this is true, but who cares? What does this have to do with the thread topic? We're talking shopping and car ownership, not downtown commuter share.

I probably have a dozen friends with condos in Chicago, but only three actually own a car.

Who cares about anecdotes? We have the actual Census data on City of Chicago car ownership and the vast majority of households own cars. Even two car households are extremely common.

Just because they own a car, doesn't mean that they drive it everywhere, because of that little traffic problem that you all seem to bring up. Many people in the city own cars, but it is far from a 1:1 person to car ratio. Getting around the city is far easier via transit, which is why they do it whenever they can.

Again your anecdotes vs. actual Census data. No-car households in Chicago are outnumbered almost 3-to-1. Even for commuting, only 26% of Chicago residents take public transit. If they drive to work they don't then take the bus to get milk.

The demographics just don't support your logic. Yes, a lot of condo complexes in downtown, Lincoln Park, etc. have parking, but the majority of Chicago's population lives in Brownstones and other similar apartment buildings, with no parking, but very viable transit.

Have you ever visited Chicago? It doesn't sound like it.

Chicago has almost no brownstones. That's Brooklyn. It has very few rowhouses [[ever hear of the Great Fire?). It has alleys everywhere, which are utilized for parking. Can you name one major residential with no parking?

And no, most Chicagoans don't live in such apartment buildings. In fact, a higher proportion of Chicago residents live in single family homes than in 10+ unit buildings.

[mwilbert]

Retail downtown isn't going to be attracting people from outside the immediate area, at least not initially. The people who are potential downtown shoppers are probably people who are downtown anyway, either because they live there, work there, or are there for some other non-retail reason.

Regardless of whether retail in other places needs a lot of free parking [[not just New York--in general, it is not available or necessary in central Boston, for instance) I have a hard time believing that you are going to have a lot of people shopping in Detroit without a fair bit of parking someplace nearby. The M1 and the People Mover both have as much potential as parking shuttles as anything else.

I don't have a lot of specific knowledge about Chicago, but in a lot of cities the reason things don't get built without parking is that city codes don't allow it, not necessarily because you couldn't market the space without it. Again, I don't think that applies to Detroit at the present time.

[Cliffy]

You are correct when you say that the majority of people do buy stuff at places like Costco and Meijer, and they do it because they think it saves them money. I don't disagree with your assertions about what the majority wants or desires, but I strongly disagree with your conclusion.

Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about. First of all comparing Meijers to Costco is like comparing apples to oranges. It doesn't sound like you have ever been to Costco before. I bet Meijers has Ground Bison, or USDA Prime Steaks, or even Dom Perignon. What about Breitling and Tag Heuer watches... They also sell stuff like Mexican Coke or gelato from Italy. They have all these unique items you don't need to buy in pallets. Shit, I can't think of one thing you have to buy in pallets. They sell milk by the gallon. Don't be dissing Costco. You are totally clueless about not only Costco but about trying to carry shit around in the frigid cold like today through some big city like a clown. Yeah, I just bought a case of wine after work, maybe I will just wait at the bus stop in 25 degree weather and then carry it on the bus and up to my apartment. No, I actually put in the trunk of my car and drove home. Buy a clue on reality man.

[SDCC]

Costco’s one my favorite stores, here in the San Diego Costco milk is sold in a “box” which contains 2 – one gallon jugs. I’ve never seen anything sold by the pallet, granted just about everything is on top of a pallet, but not necessarily sold that way. Paper towels are sold in a rather large package; like 20 rolls, same with the TP, fills the linen closet like there is no tomorrow.
The greatest perk of Costco [[other than the prices) is the hors d'oeuvres that are offered while I shop – Saturday is the best day to go. Everything from ham to salads to deserts is available at various kiosks in the store – it’s great.
Huge meat and seafood department – and I like the larger sizes that I only find in Costco – coffee [[48 ounces) and peanut butter for example.
Costco does kinda, sorta, remind me of Meijer or Walmart – in that there is jewelry, electronics and clothing as well. The various departments may be a tad nicer in Costco, and Costco has eye care as well.
Most of the time I use public transportation to get around, I tag along with a family member to Costco. San Diego has a combination of buses, trolleys and trains in the county. This is the best city I’ve ever lived in as far as public transportation goes and for the most part the weather cooperates. Most buses run every 15 minutes, as do the trolleys – the trolley from the border [[Mexico) runs every 7 minutes during rush hour – many locals live across the border and commute.

[DetroitPlanner]

The demographics just don't support your logic. Yes, a lot of condo complexes in downtown, Lincoln Park, etc. have parking, but the majority of Chicago's population lives in Brownstones and other similar apartment buildings, with no parking, but very viable transit.

Most live in bungalows or 2 family flats far from downtown. Nearly every bungalow has space for 2-3 cars! http://www.housingstudies.org/resear...ousing-market/

[douglasm]

I have a secondary question concerning downtown retail that maybe DetroitPlanner, or someone involved in commercial real estate can answer....

What sizes of retail space are available downtown? I'm working off memory here, but my impression of downtown retail space is that they tended to be quite large, as befitting the retail footprint of 30 or 40 years ago.

Large commercial spaces may have been the "thing" back in the day, but not now. You don't see 3600 sq. ft. shoe stores anymore [[for example), and I'm wondering if the size of available spaces might hinder the growth of the type of retail that would serve the downtown residential/office worker customer.

[ghettopalmetto]

Who cares? The point is that millennials own cars, drive cars, and use them to shop. That's why retailers require parking.

The retailers require parking? Or the local zoning regulations require parking?

FWIW, I've been to that Target store in downtown Minneapolis. I don't remember any damn parking lot.

But please keep building automobile-oriented, plastic-coated suburban crap, then keep telling us that no one walks or takes transit. Despite numerous examples to the contrary, you keep insisting that New York is some inexplicable exception to inviolate Laws of the Universe that worship cars. I'm going to choose to believe my own eyes and experiences over your dated propagandist position.

[Gistok]

I have a secondary question concerning downtown retail that maybe DetroitPlanner, or someone involved in commercial real estate can answer....

What sizes of retail space are available downtown? I'm working off memory here, but my impression of downtown retail space is that they tended to be quite large, as befitting the retail footprint of 30 or 40 years ago.

Large commercial spaces may have been the "thing" back in the day, but not now. You don't see 3600 sq. ft. shoe stores anymore [[for example), and I'm wondering if the size of available spaces might hinder the growth of the type of retail that would serve the downtown residential/office worker customer.

Douglasm, when I was going to college, I worked at Bakers Shoes store on Woodward near Grand River. The store was only about 1,500 SF [[plus a stock room in the back). That might be pretty standard along Woodward Ave for many of those buildings. Some were larger, such as Kresge's [[which had a basement) and Hommelhoch's [[which went from Woodward all the way to Washington Blvd). And others were much smaller, such as those boutiques located in the David Whitney Building. Probably the smallest storefront was only about 100 SF, the site of the former Pure Detroit on Woodward.