Michigan Jobless Rate Hits 15.2%

[Lorax]

Quote: "July in AZ is not my idea of "pleasant"."

You said it. What these folks always leave out is their pleasant day is contingent on their AC system. If it isn't working, it's otherwise unbearable. Quite frankly, I like the occasional rain and overcast day. Being sunny all the time, makes one take it for granted, and is tough on the folks who have to work out in it. I worked outside in the south at one time, 90 degrees by 10 am and midday was just impossible to do anything. Everyday, for months, the same story. No thanks.

This may be one of our rare moments of agreement. I live in Miami, and have for 14 years, and the summers are hotter than they have been in years past. Today, 101 on the thermometer, and I'm on Biscayne Bay, where there should be a breeze. All sun, all the time. We had an unusually rainy month in June, but with that comes the baking humidity. I look forward to my home in Southfield for the seasonal change, and plan to spend much more time there in coming years.

[Sstashmoo]

Gistok, Great Post!

The policies they have in place really don't leave much incentive for growth of the economy. Some on here talk about ingenuity and switching to another industry, you get it. It's almost a scenario of "why bother?"

Whatever we do, it's going to take the path of what we had. I know I sound like a doomsdayer, the reality is, I'm hoping some of you can see what needs to be changed. Our nation's policies in regard to trade. Abolish NAFTA, stiff tariffs on imports. All imported goods should undergo rigorous quality control to ascertain they are viable and safe. The importer should pick up these costs. If a product says "Made in China" you can rest assure on, it's not going to work, and if it does work, it will have a short service life. We should not accept this and turn it around and send it straight back where it came from. We are dumping ground.

[EastsideAl]

Couldn't pay me enough to live in Arizona or anyplace else in the heat belt. The southwest may be beautiful country [[or at least it was, before they built houses and golf courses all over it), but time spent living in NM and CA and visiting family in FL and NC was more than enough to convince me that I hate heat and don't ever want to live in a year-round hot place.

I agree with Sstashmoo about what should be done. But it just ain't going to happen, and no amount of wishful thinking about politicians and companies "coming to their senses" is going to make it happen now. One thing for sure though, a region primarily supported by the declining remains of the American automobile industry is not going to be sustainable any more. We have to get some new and different non-auto-centric economic movement going on around here.

[Glowblue]

There is effectively zero correllation between state income tax rate and state unemployment rate. This goes for both personal and corporate income tax. Just throwing that out there for the "cut taxes always" crowd.

[docmo]

Massive spending, massive deficits, massive debt, massive unemployment. How's that Hope and Change working out for You? Just as Jenny said--You'll be blown away, Michigan!

Here are just a few of of barack's planned tax increases: Rescind the Bush tax cuts. Resultant tax increases and spectacular energy cost increases from Cap and Trade. One trillion dollar surtax on the "wealthy" to "fix "Health Care. Next we will have to pay for everyone's college and re-training. Just wait until he fixes Social Security---Isn't that coming out next week? I'm sure that won't involve any tax increases on us working folk.

Maybe barack hasn't raised taxes yet. He sure as hell will soon! Just the thought of these massive tax increases are killing this economy. Why would any small business owner invest now? His or her income will soon be decimated by barack's policies. Helluva way to stimulate an economy---tax the hell out of the very people who invest and create jobs.

Here's my plan as a small business owner: Hunker down and save for the day when barack takes my hard earned income and hope that I do not have to foreclose on my house.

Hope and Change: Change, for sure. Hope, not anytime soon with these radical policies.

point of view from a slow conservative with a high IQ and advanced degrees from the University of Michigan.

[Novine]

"Maybe barack hasn't raised taxes yet. He sure as hell will soon! Just the thought of these massive tax increases are killing this economy."

So what's your excuse for the economy tanking before he was elected President? I appreciate you acknowledging the facts, that Obama hasn't raised taxes, he's cut them. According to conservative mythology, cutting taxes should have boosted the economy. Is this proof that your side is wrong?

Conservatives are one-trick ponies: Cut Taxes! When presented with evidence to the contrary, like the fact that state income tax rates today are lower than when Engler was Governor, they don't bother to reconcile the contradiction. They just keep yelling "Cut Taxes!" It's sad to see that a U-M education went to waste on you.

[humanmachinery]

I'm not really in favor of abolishing NAFTA, but I do think Michael Lind has a good strategy here: cut corporate income taxes, shift the burden to individuals, and institute a Value Added Tax that promotes the purchase of domestic products. It means we still get imports and exports, but domestic businesses have a distinct advantage.

While pressuring the surplus nations to end unfair mercantilism and increase consumption, the U.S. must shift capital and labor from low-value-added industries like restaurants and retail to high-value-added manufacturing, high-value services, and research and development. Export-oriented, import-competing industries like automobiles and aerospace tend to have much higher productivity growth and R&D spending than other industries. Manufacturing-led growth for both the U.S. and global markets can melt away the debt legacy of today's economic emergency more rapidly.

In the new era of American developmental capitalism, the tax code will have two purposes -- raising adequate revenue and promoting "onshoring" or the growth of high-value-added production inside U.S. borders, by domestic and foreign companies alike. To encourage onshoring, the U.S. should lower or abolish its high corporate income tax, one of the few sound ideas of the American right. This would stimulate foreign direct investment in U.S. production. It would also reduce the incentive for U.S. companies to engage in tax avoidance schemes.
If the corporate income tax remains, then, as the economist Ralph Gomory has suggested, it should be made variable and lowered for high-value-added production inside the U.S. Alternately, the U.S. could replace the corporate income tax with a value-added tax [[VAT). This would level the playing field for American companies. They are punished by de facto tariffs in the form of VATs in Europe and Asia, even as European and Asian exporters get government subsidies in the form of VAT rebates from their governments. In addition, a "Gomory VAT" could be reduced for high-value-added U.S. production, regardless of the nationality of the company or investors.

Adding a VAT to the mix of federal taxes would shift the U.S. toward the European mix of national consumption, payroll and income taxes. In the next half-century, even after runaway healthcare costs are controlled, the U.S. government share of GDP, while remaining relatively low by international standards, needs to expand by several percentage points to pay for universal healthcare, adequate retirement and a permanently higher level of infrastructure investment. Invisible taxes like payroll and consumption taxes are a better way to finance modern big government than highly visible taxes like income taxes and property taxes. Because they do not cause "sticker shock" to check writers around April 15 or when mortgage payments are due, they are harder for politicians to inveigh against on the campaign trail. Consumption and payroll taxes tend to be regressive in their effect on middle- and low-income people. But the exemption of necessities from consumption taxes, payroll tax rebates or [[better yet) allowing biweekly credits against payroll tax withholding, an idea I have suggested elsewhere, can make these taxes more progressive.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature..._contract_one/

[wazootyman]

I just tell the truth and it sounds like hell.

Quote: "Don't even bother opening the curtains"

That's the people with their air-filled positive outlook. They must never look outside. The unemployment rate is skyrocketing, companies are dropping like flies, many companies are cutting back to 32 hour work weeks. You people that ignore all this and tout your "global economy" are the one's living in the dark gloomy room and just do not realize it.

I'm on your side, man. Trust me - I'm hurting. We took a 5% pay cut, and when I add up the mandatory unpaid weeks off, I'm looking at more like 15% on the year. I hate the consequences of the "global economy", buy local often, and own two domestically built GM vehicles less than 2 years old.

My point was that this thread is like opening the paper to the same old doom and gloom. Things are bad, but it does nobody any good to dwell on it, or to have a "pity party" as my soon-to-be wife would say. I spend most nights building a couple of side business ventures in the hopes that they will provide me future job security. Rather than worry about what the government will do for you tomorrow, we all have to determine our own future. Whether that involves going to school, becoming an entrepreneur, or whatever. Focusing on the negative day after day will only make you sick.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I spend most nights building a couple of side business ventures in the hopes that they will provide me future job security."

Good move. Take charge of your future.

[docmo]

Conservatives are far from a one trick pony. Remove obstructions to business. Do not put US businesses at major disadvantages. Do not try and fix the planet during a major world recession by allegedly legislating the planet's temperature 30-40 years from now. Do not strangle our business with your regulations which allegedly protect the little guy.

Why not just take over the whole thing and manage everything, barack. Oh wait! He is doing exactly that with my business as a physician owner/operator. Add my practice to his growing list of businesses under his greedy grasp and control.

Sure, taxes are the most critical component. barack cut taxes a measly amount with a rebate. This rebate didn't go to me. It was tiny amount which went to consumers who did not spend it. Taxes absolutely were not cut to job creators. The prospect of the massive tax increases facing me and my partners is a major disincentive to the investment and expansion of our company.

barack is taking the US to where much of Europe was in the 80's, 90' and 00's. Europe has finally woken up and is moving away from their oppressive tax and regulation state. Instead, we move further toward their failed, socialistic state. Just great.

You know the thing that really ticks me off about this guy. He campaigned from a center-left position. He then gained power and mover further left than any MoveOn type could ever have hoped for. It's his narcissism. It's his pompous presentation. He states: we don't want to control the automotive bussiness. We don't want to control all aspects of Health Care. And then he just goes right out and controls every aspect. And, he lies to the public and tells them he doesn't want to run these formerly private businesses.

barack is about nothing other than control. He will control everything in your life. Hell, he wants to control the weather. Maybe he should just legislate how many earthquakes and tornadoes are going to be allowed in 2020.

Also, there are cyclic components to every economy. Yeah, this thing started with Bush. barack, however, grabbed it and has tossed us so far over the edge we didn't even know what hit us. He never even gave a single thought to letting market forces have a chance to correct themselves.

Too bad barack couldn't just wait out the economy [[maybe a focused stimulus entirely weighted to major infrastructure projects was indicated). No, he took it on his pompous shoulders to solve all of the planet's ills in 6 months. Doing so, he failed to focus on the "its the economy, stupid!" Doing so, we are now in the worst economic crisis in the last 70 years. As Rahm so eloquently stated, "Never let a good crisis go to waste." barack sure didn't, did he?

But, barack assured us that if we just immediately implemented his stimulus plan [[which not one single person read) we would all be OK. He would create 4.5 million jobs. The unemployment rate would go no higher than 8 percent. He would fix everything. Wrong!!!!!!!

Well, he fucked up. Worse than that idiot Bush ever did. Where is the outrage against this narcisstic, power hungry, zealot?

How's that Hope and Change working out for You?

[bailey]

So what you're saying Doc is that BO should have done nothing to stop GM and Chrysler from failing? You think that the country and this state would be better off with the cascades of bankruptcy that would follow the liquidation of those two entities? All the banks and AIG should have been left to fail as well?

Look, I can see your point that maybe we need to prioritize and not go off on every pet project and crusade, however, the alternatives were much worse with regard to the economy. And I'm also cognizant of the disparity between treatment of banks and industry in these bailouts. However, the republicans offered no counter plan other than more of the same bromide that got us into the problem in the first place.

I'm also trying to figure out what exactly you are upset with the Stimulus. something like what...20%? of it has actually been spent. its a 780 billion dollar program built on a 2 year time frame. Yeah, some of the predictions were rosy and the economy was worse than anyone predicted. ok. But is that reason to be screaming about it's failure barely 6 months in?

p.s.

Conservatives are far from a one trick pony.

that may be true...but the republicans in congress who claim to be conservatives are.

[Novine]

"How's that Hope and Change working out for You?"

So far, so good. Obama passed the tax reductions for the lower and middle class as he promised during the campaign. He provided the support to get GM and Chrysler in and out of bankruptcy while Senate Republicans were pushing for the companies to fail and be dismantled. He's taking the lead on getting a handle on health care costs which are a huge drain on the economy. You must subscribe to the crack cocaine view of the world where you need an immediate fix and if the world's largest economy doesn't turn around in 6 months, you declare it a failure. Join the adults out here who realize that there are no instant fixes to any of these problems and that no economic recovery happens overnight.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Join the adults out here who realize that there are no instant fixes to any of these problems and that no economic recovery happens overnight."


Ask the banks who got their Trillion dollar gift over a weekend. Keep making excuses for your party.

[bailey]

Quote: "Join the adults out here who realize that there are no instant fixes to any of these problems and that no economic recovery happens overnight."


Ask the banks who got their Trillion dollar gift over a weekend. Keep making excuses for your party.

What is the excuse for yours?

[Sstashmoo]

My what? I don't claim any political party.

[bailey]

What is the excuse for yours?

My what? I don't claim any political party.

then what is the point of demanding others defend theirs?

And if your rebuttal is...I vote for the best person for the job; presumably, by your constant criticism of the current administration, your choice was McCain and the republicans. so, my question [[well, really your question just asked of you) still stands. What is the excuse for the republicans who lead us to the current financial morass? What would McCain/Palin have done better than Obama? What is their excuse for offering no alternative?

[Patrick]

We are retraining all these out-of-work people for new jobs, yet once they are ready to go, there are no jobs to be had and they end up moving to Texas. Basically, Michigan is training the Sunbelt's workforce.

[oladub]

Bailey, The federal government and its mercenary Federal Reserve created this mess. Why do you think that doing more of what didn't work is the Obama elixer? In 1921, the economy collapsed for similar reasons and Harding did nothing. 1921 was tough as the economy self-corrected. When the economy again nosedived in 1929 under Hoover, Hoover and Roosevelt instead both tried to reinflate the bubble, much as Bush was and Obama is trying to do, thus preventing the economy from getting back on its feet. Yeah, I know that isn't what is taught in 10th grade.

Bush/Obama are sticking taxpayers with debts while privitizing corporate profits. Why isn't Obama stuffing jails with these corrupt bankers instead of hiring them to run his administration? This is what I would have expected of McCain.

One problem with Porkulus is that it was not about infrastructure. It was about paying off school teachers and other supporters. Only about 10% of it will go to infrastructure - which was one of the few Roosevelt initiatives with a payback.

As Ralph Nader quipped, "We don't need a third party. What we need is a second party."

Novine, Nice servile platitudes and talking points. When will the increasing unemployment, forclosures, bombing of Pakistani villages, and attacks on our remaining civil liberties become Obama's babies instead of Bush's? My guess - one to one and a half years. All this economic crack to stimulate the economy hasn't even given enough hope to businesses to start expanding inventory.

[EastSider]

So what you're saying Doc is that BO should have done nothing to stop GM and Chrysler from failing? You think that the country and this state would be better off with the cascades of bankruptcy that would follow the liquidation of those two entities? All the banks and AIG should have been left to fail as well?

Yes, we should have let them declare bankruptcy last fall. We wouldn't have wasted the money we gave them to allegedly prevent bankruptcy, and it's likely there would not have been the political interference like in the Chrysler secured-creditor situation.

The Fed's easy credit policy led to malinvestment, and the only solution is liquidation of the bad so that capital can be freed up for further investment in productive activities. That liquidation will happen no matter what government tries to do. We can either go through it quickly and be back on solid footing in year or 18 months or try to fight the inevitable and prolong and deepen the misery.

Unfortunately for us, Washington is full of people in both donkey and elephant costumes who think the solution is more spending and more control by Washington.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "What would McCain/Palin have done better than Obama?"

Same as Obama is doing. The point is, Obama is just more of the same. You'll eventually realize that. I drove through Detroit the other day and noticed their savior Obama stickers posted in windows in a lot of shops. Do these folks not realize he is doing nothing to help them? He's just a continuance of what we just had. His reluctance to address trade, appeasing corporatists. Will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I was all for him when he was elected, his actions since have turned me off.

I mean we sat through hours of his harping about the evils of Nafta, he gets elected and the subject came up, Canada and Mexico like what they have, his response? OK. That was the end of that. Case closed. Instead we're strengthening our trade ties with China and now working on South Korea as a trade partner as well. They are going to bleed this place dry.

[mwilbert]

Irrespective of the merits of the stimulus, fiscal policy acts slowly. Even the stuff that was relatively fast, like the reduction in FICA witholding, didn't kick in until a month or so ago. That is a major reason monetary policy is generally preferred--it works faster. Unfortunately we already have about as much monetary easing as is possible, so we have to wait for the fiscal stuff to kick in.

It looks to me like the national [[not Michigan) recession will probably end sometime this year, and the stimulus will help things pick up some more next year. I doubt employment growth will be very strong though, and in any case Michigan will be worse, so I wouldn't be surprised to see unemployment rising even after the recession is officially over. Secular decline isn't pleasant.

Perhaps once the economy in other parts of the country picks up, more people will move away. That is pretty much what has to happen to get Michigan's population and employment base into balance.

[Locke]

Well, first, before even addressing the problem, Michigan's unemployment is 15%....the last number I saw for Detroit proper was 22%. And that is just who they are counting. "discouraged" workers...those that aren't seeking work, and "under employed"..those working part time aren't counted. s o, easily we're talking, 1 in 4 in Detroit are unemployed/underemployed. In a city of 900k that is 225,000 people...just in Detroit.

Just to chime in with some rough economics 101, when an unemployment rate is 25% in a city of 900k, that doesn't mean 225k are unemployed. It means 25% of the population that could work and are currently out of a job [[typically 18-60y/o demo) are affected [[leaving out children, elderly, and long-unactive jobseekers). I don't have my sources readily available, but the number is probably 25% of around 500k. Not exactly pretty by any means.

[bailey]

Just to chime in with some rough economics 101, when an unemployment rate is 25% in a city of 900k, that doesn't mean 225k are unemployed.

duh..brain freeze on my part. thanks for the correction.

[croweblack]

Novine, Nice servile platitudes and talking points. When will the increasing unemployment, forclosures, bombing of Pakistani villages, and attacks on our remaining civil liberties become Obama's babies instead of Bush's? My guess - one to one and a half years. All this economic crack to stimulate the economy hasn't even given enough hope to businesses to start expanding inventory.

you are really asking that question after he still blames ENGLER for everything in michigan almost eight years after he has left office?

I will answer for him NEVER will obama be held responsible for ANYTHING

[Novine]

"I will answer for him NEVER will obama be held responsible for ANYTHING"

NEVER will I need to use ALL CAPS to make my point.

As to the question, unlike some of the cowards in Congress and the Republican Party, Obama has no problem stepping up and taking responsibility for fixing the mess he inherited. If the Republicans in Congress would have had their way, we would have had 2 auto companies liquidated in bankruptcy, we would be doing the bidding of of the insurance companies when it comes to health care and we would have refused to continue the draw down of troops in Iraq. Unlike the Republican cowards, Obama realizes that the work that has to be done is difficult, can't be fixed overnight and requires patience that many on the other side refuse to exercise. You sound like a crack addict demanding your next fix. Go get some help.