Hideous Art Van house on the market - comments please!

[nain rouge]

Just like eeeeeeeeevullllllllllll Wal-Mart pay scales are very, very competitive with their "mom and pop" competitors [[and Wal-Mart won't withhold your paycheck because "we didn't make enough money this week").

Oh please, this topic again? We are much better off economically with mom & pop stores than Wal-Mart. Yes, you have to pay more at mom & pops because of economies of scale, but it's pretty much proven economic fact that when you centralize businesses and services, less of society's wealth is passed around and more is hoarded by those at the top. On average, Wal-Mart, kills 3 local jobs for every 2 jobs it creates.

Of course, you love Wal-Mart because the prices are cheap, and considering that most people's real wages [[adjusted for inflation) haven't increased in decades [[including yours, most likely), that's a strong incentive. But don't let it cloud your judgment.

[motz]

I still want A2Mike to explain to me how this place is a McMansion. I grew up around McMansions and trust me, this is nowhere near that level of crap. It might not be your taste, but it is definitely a quality build...

[Det_ard]

As for their line of credit... I bought $5K worth of Art Van furniture quite a few years back... and only afterwards was I aware of the high rate of finance... I immediately went thru my Credit Union and got a personal loan to pay it off. Didn't make the Art Van folks happy though...

Well, not knowing the interest rate on a loan you take out is certainly a rookie mistake. I have to wonder however, what you think a fair interest rate is on a loan for something like furniture that is unsecured by collateral [[or even if secured, what's the value of repo'ed furniture net of reposession costs)? There's a cost to being a lender that includes their cost of funds, cost of operations, and losses on unpaid debt.

Most folks who agree to borrow at retail store rates [[20%) are not creditworthy enough to borrow at lower rates, otherwise they would. While spending on unneeded furniture is foolish, if some one needs a $800 bed or sofa now for some reason they'll pay about $12/month in interest initially. If they pay if off in three or four months the interest didn't really cost them that much.

Of course, for every person who uses credit wisely there are a bunch of idiots who don't.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I wonder if the house is furnished with Art Van furniture.

[Jason]

So the guy who made a fortune selling tacky poorly designed furniture built a tacky poorly designed house for himself?

No surprise here.

[Gistok]

Well, not knowing the interest rate on a loan you take out is certainly a rookie mistake. I have to wonder however, what you think a fair interest rate is on a loan for something like furniture that is unsecured by collateral [[or even if secured, what's the value of repo'ed furniture net of reposession costs)? There's a cost to being a lender that includes their cost of funds, cost of operations, and losses on unpaid debt.

Yup... young and naiive... bought my first house and spent $5K on furnishings, which I had intended to pay off in less than 2 years... the 20% interest rate and doing the math changed my mind towards a credit union loan instead...

[Hermod]

Oh please, this topic again? We are much better off economically with mom & pop stores than Wal-Mart. Yes, you have to pay more at mom & pops because of economies of scale, but it's pretty much proven economic fact that when you centralize businesses and services, less of society's wealth is passed around and more is hoarded by those at the top. On average, Wal-Mart, kills 3 local jobs for every 2 jobs it creates.

Worst job I ever had was working for a "mom and pop". Mom would scoop up money out of the register to go shopping and pop would look in the register and say he couldn't pay me much that week.

[nain rouge]

There will always be bad employers. Doesn't prove much.

[JBMcB]

So the guy who made a fortune selling tacky poorly designed furniture built a tacky poorly designed house for himself?

*Specifically* what is wrong with the design of the house?

[canuck]

*Specifically* what is wrong with the design of the house?

Not enough vinyl to satisfy today's discerning home buyers.

Actually, a lot of the older houses some of us like are also a mishmash of styles gathered up in the minds of architects when the vocabulary was still grecian and gothic and whatnot. Talent resided in the fact that some of these folks could handle proportions better than others, but it was ersatz just the same.

But I do prefer that kind of architecture over the revival of styles in McManses because they are usually uninteresting in their attention to detail, craft, proportions and materials. I particularly hate the molded compressed concrete bricks and stonework.

[JBMcB]

Talent resided in the fact that some of these folks could handle proportions better than others, but it was ersatz just the same.

If you want to be pedantic about it, you could call every Gothic and Tudor mansion in Boston Edison ersatz, and the older Victorian homes would have an asterisk next to their description.

In any case, it's pretty easy to complain about taste and design when it's someone else's money.

[canuck]

JBMcB If you want to be pedantic about it, you could call every Gothic and Tudor mansion in Boston Edison ersatz, and the older Victorian homes would have an asterisk next to their description.

In any case, it's pretty easy to complain about taste and design when it's someone else's money.

Emulation or imitation in architecture has been going on since the advent of mud huts I suppose. Modern, purified, restricted design styles are also repeated and quoted the world over. But it is interesting to see how an english or scottish concept of neo-palladian, or neo-gothic somehow bloomed into myriad styles in places as diverse as the deep south, Canada or the east coast of Australia.


But really JBMcB, it's pretty easy to dismiss architectural criticism altogether if anyone else's money builds the object of our attention. We may as well not be human then, since all we ever do is criticize.

[p69rrh51]

I am getting a kick out of all the Art Van trashing, but when its all said and done he does not own the house.

[KJ5]

A thread fishing for high-brow trolling? Well I'm going the other way - if I was obscenely wealthy I would build a mansion that looks like a giant sea green trailer in Grosse Pointe, pink flamingos on the front lawn and all. Kid Rock, if you're reading, please do this for real.

[Hermod]

Bad Taste = "its bigger/more expensive than mine is."

[KJ5]

And I would like to add that I am having trouble assembling the McMansion I bought at Wal-Mart. They could have included a Chinese person or two in the box to help me with this shit...

[JBMcB]

But it is interesting to see how an english or scottish concept of neo-palladian, or neo-gothic somehow bloomed into myriad styles in places as diverse as the deep south, Canada or the east coast of Australia.

Absolutely. Emulation is an important part of art in general. There is well executed and poorly executed emulation to be sure, but it seems to be rejected outright as a detriment too often, I think.

But really JBMcB, it's pretty easy to dismiss architectural criticism altogether if anyone else's money builds the object of our attention.

Architecture fills a practical purpose. Criticism of someone's house should be such informed. The Art Van mansion was designed to fulfill their needs. Saying it's a big ugly fake-looking McMansion by looking at some pictures isn't valid criticism.

Absent context, The Last Supper is a pretty lousy painting. It's a bunch of people freaking out over dinner, except for that one guy.

[A2Mike]

A thread fishing for high-brow trolling? Well I'm going the other way - if I was obscenely wealthy I would build a mansion that looks like a giant sea green trailer in Grosse Pointe, pink flamingos on the front lawn and all. Kid Rock, if you're reading, please do this for real.

John Waters, that perennial arbiter elegantiarum, would love it and probably put it in a movie of his!

[coracle]

No matter how garish we consider a house, the bottom line to its real value is location; location; location.

[A2Mike]

To "motz": There are degrees of everything and certainly some examples of "Contractor Classicism" [[a term I prefer to "McMansion") are much worse than others. Architecture with historical precedents has established canons of massing, proportion, materials, detailing, craftsmanship, and other considerations which ultimately determine how convincingly a given architect has understood and employed them in evoking whatever is characteristic of a particular style or period. Ambitious projects, such as the house under discussion for example, will often employ superb materials inappropriately and uninformed by those other considerations, and give a gloss of quality to a product which will not hold up to further scrutiny. Real estate advertising is full of puffery like "acres of marble" and "tons of crystal" when promoting the more conspicuous examples of such buildings. A good example of a well designed house in a historical style is the former Owen Skelton house, an Albert Kahn design, at Vendome and Ridge in the Farms, a few minutes drive from the Art Van house. Drive by both and consider which is the more convincing evocation of a French country manor, and which you would prefer to live in.

[Scottathew]

As for their line of credit... I bought $5K worth of Art Van furniture quite a few years back... and only afterwards was I aware of the high rate of finance... I immediately went thru my Credit Union and got a personal loan to pay it off. Didn't make the Art Van folks happy though...

I've never been surprised by an interest rate. It's just one of the things you must know going into a loan. I want to hear it verbally, and then I want to see it again on paper.

The government has passed regulations affecting many different types of loans that require more concise and clear verbiage surrounding important loan terms.

I find Art Van and Gardner White to be obnoxious with there "everything is always on sale" advertising. The sales people are obnoxious too. The last time I went to Art Van the sales lady whispered what the sale was because it's a tactic they use to make you feel like you're getting some kind of steal that no one else is.

Although I haven't been able to find any alternatives.


As to the Wal-Mart discussion - I worked at Wal-Mart for two years. I made more money AND had profit sharing at Wal-Mart. K-Mart and Hollywood Supermarkets [[union) paid me less. Wal-Mart was extremely flexible with my my changing college class schedule. K-Mart was not flexible, and I had to quit my job because they refused to give me ANY weekend day off ever, period.

I had a much better experience at Wal-Mart than other places. However, my experience does need to be qualified by me being white and male. I worked at the Maple Road store in Troy.

[p69rrh51]

To "motz": There are degrees of everything and certainly some examples of "Contractor Classicism" [[a term I prefer to "McMansion") are much worse than others. Architecture with historical precedents has established canons of massing, proportion, materials, detailing, craftsmanship, and other considerations which ultimately determine how convincingly a given architect has understood and employed them in evoking whatever is characteristic of a particular style or period. Ambitious projects, such as the house under discussion for example, will often employ superb materials inappropriately and uninformed by those other considerations, and give a gloss of quality to a product which will not hold up to further scrutiny. Real estate advertising is full of puffery like "acres of marble" and "tons of crystal" when promoting the more conspicuous examples of such buildings. A good example of a well designed house in a historical style is the former Owen Skelton house, an Albert Kahn design, at Vendome and Ridge in the Farms, a few minutes drive from the Art Van house. Drive by both and consider which is the more convincing evocation of a French country manor, and which you would prefer to live in.

273 Ridge Road built in 1929 Grosse Pointe Farms, MI.

[bailey]

273 Ridge Road built in 1929 Grosse Pointe Farms, MI.

Beat me to it. I was going to post the same pic. And A2mike has a valid point.

However, I'm with Motz on the "McMansion" term. Art's is just a really garish, overdone, charicature of a "french country manor". I tend think McMansion is a term used to describe a cookie cutter, generic, cheaply built, mass produced, over large house. Critique the architecture or execution all you want, but I'm sure no expense was spared. [[except on proper footings ...lol)

[motz]

Beat me to it. I was going to post the same pic. And A2mike has a valid point.

However, I'm with Motz on the "McMansion" term. Art's is just a really garish, overdone, charicature of a "french country manor". I tend think McMansion is a term used to describe a cookie cutter, generic, cheaply built, mass produced, over large house. Critique the architecture or execution all you want, but I'm sure no expense was spared. [[except on proper footings ...lol)

Thanks for summing up my point well, bailey. That is exactly what I was getting at. While it might not be amazing, it isn't comparable to the Chinese drywall mountains that they call houses out in Oakland and Macomb. Those things are terrible, bland architecture that don't even attempt to be unique.

[canuck]

JBMcB Absolutely. Emulation is an important part of art in general. There is well executed and poorly executed emulation to be sure, but it seems to be rejected outright as a detriment too often, I think.

Yes, archaic or other elements are too often rejected on empty bias.


Architecture fills a practical purpose. Criticism of someone's house should be such informed. The Art Van mansion was designed to fulfill their needs. Saying it's a big ugly fake-looking McMansion by looking at some pictures isn't valid criticism.

Yes to that too. I am reminded of Martin Alsop's famed OCA campus main building in Toronto. A very playful and imaginative use of space in exterior architecture. The downer is that the lobby looked like a stall for your Zamboni in a suburban arena; totally anticlimactic.


Absent context, The Last Supper is a pretty lousy painting. It's a bunch of people freaking out over dinner, except for that one guy.

I think Leonardo Di Caprio barely graduated when he painted that one.