Regionalism vs Isolationism

[EastSider]

I wasn't talking about millage, I was following on Professorscott's point about the relationship between sales price and tax rate. It's state law, as modified by the voters, that determines how that relationship works.

Got it. Thanks.

[Roq]

Yes, but it's not a Detroit problem per se, and the city has limited control over how those rates are determined. The problem is primarily a statewide one, and has to do with measures that Michigan voters, not Detroit voters, and the state legislature have passed over the years.

Ok, thanks for the info. This needs to be addressed by Detroit STAT then because seriously, who is going to buy a house [[which is actually a nice house) like Lorax posted above with those tax rates when you can get a comparable one [[esp. in this market) in a suburb such as Madison Heights for example. The taxes in M.H. are approx. $3,000 avg. and services are provided consistently, not hit or miss like they are in many areas of the City.

[Novine]

"This needs to be addressed by Detroit STAT"

How do you propose that to be done? There's been plenty of discussion here about the hole that Detroit is in. With very low taxable values on property, the city and schools have ridiculously high millage rates to provide the revenue needed to service city residents. The level of service needed by Madison Heights residents isn't comparable to what's needed in Detroit. Those two factors account for most of the difference in the tax burden between Detroit and most any other community in the area.

[Downtown diva]

the answer to this is alot simpler than what some of you think.

Detroit and it's residents need to wake up.

Detroit needs the suburbs more than ever, and denying it is futile. sorry, Detroit has few assets, and few benefits other than memories of what used to be.

A declining tax base and a completely corrupt government have minimized any impact that the city could have.

blaming Detroit's problems on anything other than the morally bankrupt government and the ingorant notion that everyone is out to get Detroit is stupid.

[Novine]

There you go. Everyone wakes up and everything is fixed. Thanks for the advice. It couldn't have been more helpful.

[Danny]

One thing for sure that Detroit needs:

REGIONALISM HERE, REGIONALISM NOW, REGIONALISM FOREVER!

[Retroit]

The best thing that could happen to Detroit would be to accept advice from the suburbs, and the worst thing that could happen to the suburbs would be to accept advice from Detroit. It is not the people of Detroit that the suburbanites would fear most form regionalism; it is the inabilities of the Detroit Shitty Clownshow and MayNOTor. Most suburbs are quite well run and have tax rates appropriate to the desirability of living there. Detroit is dysfunctional. Detroit should be begging the suburbanites for help and should be most receptive to any advice offered. But false pride is unwilling to admit failure.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Detroit should be begging the suburbanites for help and should be most receptive to any advice offered.

Ignorance at its absolute finest. And these same dimwits wonder why regionalism doesn't currently exist?

[KnowWhatImSayin]

I agree with the original poster that this area badly needs more regional cooperation. <snip>

Why ?

Just askin'.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

I am a big supporter of regionalism. The Detroit metro area is competing in a global marketplace for jobs, talent, conventions, etc... People from outside of the area do not view our suburbs as being separate from Detroit, just as we don't view Oak Park, IL as being separate from Chicago. If we continue to fight with each other over the limited resources we have, we will continue to fall further and further behind in the global competition.

I agree with the need for a regional transportation authority. It is long overdue. However, it will not be easy. As others have stated, attempts have been made by more powerful politicians than we have now that met with failure. The citizens of the region need to demand a consolidation of regional transportation services. Only then will our leaders view it as a priority. If we keep getting distracted over relatively minor issues, squabbling and finger-pointing then it will not happen.

I also think it is a mistake to assume that most suburban communities in the Detroit area have tax rates that will lead to long-term successful communities. It is true that the cities with the highest levels of service have the higher tax rates [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc...) These cities have fantastic city services and their residents pay most of the real cost of providing those services. In fact, because these cities all have vibrant commercial districts, their residents are paying to provide police, fire, inspections, etc... for bars and restaurants that cater to a majority of non-residents. However, even though they provide a high level of services, all of these communities are suffering from population loss. Residents who grow up in these communities often can not afford to buy a home there when they reach adulthood. The trend is still to "drive till you qualify" and move as far out as necessary to where you can find affordable housing. These new communities have lower levels of service, but even lower tax rates. They are relying on the revenue generated by growth. Once all of the develop-able land has been built-out they become more like the older suburbs. The growth stops and the city needs to raise taxes to continue the same level of services. Then the out-migration begins to the next, new, fringe city and the cycle repeats itself.

Ferndale, Royal Oak and Birmingham are in many respects the exceptions to this rule. They underwent this kind of abandonment in the 70s and 80s. Now they are revived because they have distinguised themselves as unique [[older, higher quality housing stock. Vibrant commerical districts, high service levels). The cities like Oak Park, Southfield, Madison Heights, Hazel Park, etc... are all in big trouble because there can only be so many Royal Oaks in a particular region.

The forclosure crisis has certainly changed the game. Will this reverse the trend of moving to the fringe? As the economy recovers, fuel prices will rise again. Will that make living on the fringe less attractive? We will see. I think people will want to live in areas where they need to drive less. That bodes well for the three suburbs I mentioned earlier. It also bodes well for neighborhoods surounding downtown and mid-town. Places like Sterling Heights, Shelby Township, Bloomfield Hills, I think are going to have a tough time in the next 10-20 years.

[Todd_Scott]

Why is it that DDOT, although has stated that they would have bike racks on all of their buses this year...

Where is it stated that DDOT would have all their bus bike racks installed this year? It appears you've made that up. According to the Detroit News article you've referenced, "DDOT officials won't say how long it will take to fit its 472 buses."

And as I posted earlier, they are working through technical issues between two vendors and their 2- and 3-bike bus racks.

[Tig3rzhark]

Where is it stated that DDOT would have all their bus bike racks installed this year? It appears you've made that up. According to the Detroit News article you've referenced, "DDOT officials won't say how long it will take to fit its 472 buses."

And as I posted earlier, they are working through technical issues between two vendors and their 2- and 3-bike bus racks.

Who are the two vendors?

I'll admit that I assumed that all of the bike bus racks could be done by the end of this year, but because of the technical issues that you described, I'm not very optimistic.

Please continue any available updates when you can.

[KnowWhatImSayin]

I am a big supporter of regionalism. The Detroit metro area is competing in a global marketplace for jobs, talent, conventions, etc... People from outside of the area do not view our suburbs as being separate from Detroit, just as we don't view Oak Park, IL as being separate from Chicago. If we continue to fight with each other over the limited resources we have, we will continue to fall further and further behind in the global competition.

I agree with the need for a regional transportation authority.....

I honestly don't see the connection between "competing in a global marketplace" and a regional transportation authority. Not saying there isn't one, but what is it ?

foreign exec #1: OK. It's settled then, we'll locate our offices in metro Detroit.
foreign exec #2: Wait... they don't have a regional transportation authority. And the DDOT buses lack bike racks...
foreign exec #1: What was I thinking ?

[dove-7]

I'm glad that I got away from there. I like the idea that I live outside of San Francisco and Oakland and can get on the subway and take it to the city and suburb or damn near to San Jose if I chose to do so.

Isolation is a perfection definition if city and suburb back there.

[Haikoont]

I'm glad that I got away from there.

The feeling is mutual.

[crawford]

It is true that the cities with the highest levels of service have the higher tax rates [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc...) These cities have fantastic city services and their residents pay most of the real cost of providing those services.

You are grouping Birmingham in with Ferndale? Totally different.

Birmingham has excellent city services, because it's rich.

Ferndale has mediocre city services. Iffy schools, higher than average crime, a bit of physical deterioration. Still a good city [[one I would live in), but has some warts, and city services are somewhat below average.

Both have high tax rates, but they are really quite different. Bham has high tax rates because its residents demand lavish services, such as "free" personal snow removal and leaf removal from residential properties. Ferndale has high tax rates because it has a relatively poor commerical base, it has a liberal populace willing to tax themselves, and because they are at some risk of urban decline.

In fact, because these cities all have vibrant commercial districts, their residents are paying to provide police, fire, inspections, etc... for bars and restaurants that cater to a majority of non-residents.

Not true and basically irrelevent to this discussion. And Bham does not have many bars at all. Hardly a nightlife center.

However, even though they provide a high level of services, all of these communities are suffering from population loss. Residents who grow up in these communities often can not afford to buy a home there when they reach adulthood.

The average price of a home in Ferndale is under $100,000. If residents "cannot afford to buy a home", then they must all work for minimum wage. Heck, even then, two adults working full time could afford a home in Ferndale.

The trend is still to "drive till you qualify" and move as far out as necessary to where you can find affordable housing. These new communities have lower levels of service, but even lower tax rates. They are relying on the revenue generated by growth.

I don't know. Bham residents would never consider sprawlburbs. Old-school Ferndale residents may, but not the newcomers.

Ferndale, Royal Oak and Birmingham are in many respects the exceptions to this rule. They underwent this kind of abandonment in the 70s and 80s.

LOL; yes I remember that "abandonment" of Bham back in the 70's and 80's...

All three communities had about 10-15% more residents back then, because of larger average family size. None of these communities have ever had anything remotely comparable to urban "abandonment."

Places like Sterling Heights, Shelby Township, Bloomfield Hills, I think are going to have a tough time in the next 10-20 years.

What does Sterling Heights have to do with Bloomfield Hills? Completely different. Ethnic Macomb County compared to one of the richest communities on earth?

Bham and Bloomfield are basically the same place; culturally, economically and socially. If you do not understand that, you do not understand the essence of these communities.

Downtown Bham serves as the city center for Bham-Bloomfield, and there's no substantial difference in the type of person who lives in either community. There are very minor differences between Bloomfield Hills, Bloomfield Township, and Bham, but not what DYes posters are likely to think [[Bham is walkable and has a downtown, so residents must be progressive, etc. etc.)

The real distinctions have to do with minor differences in ethnic background and financial status [[Bham is a little WASPier, Bloomfield has more Catholics, Jews and Asians, and Bloomfield tends to have a bit more wealth).

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Sorry, my post was a bit rambling. My point was that in the global competition for talent, jobs, etc... people from outside the area don't see/care about the differences between Detroit/Ferndale/Birmingham/Troy, etc... That being the case, we need to function more as a cohesive regional area, not 127 distinct municipalities that are all competing with each other. Having three independent transit authorities in the region is a good example of how we have failed to form cooperative structures and how we waste our resources as a result.

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Crawford,

Thank you for the thought-out response to my post.

Your response seems very focused on pointing out that Birmingham is different from Royal Oak and Ferndale. I certainly didn't intend to imply that the communities I listed are all the same. They are similar in being older suburbs who provide much higher levels of service as compared to many of the surrounding suburbs. They all have high tax rates. I personally disagree that Ferndale provides below-average services but that may just be a difference of opinion that we have. Also, I think it is a big mistake to assume a cause and effect relationship between the wealth of residents in Birmingham and the tax rate in the city. There are many other rich suburbs in the area which have lower taxes.

As for young people being able to afford to live in the communities where they grew up, I admit, things have changed dramatically in the last 1-2 years. However, with the drop in housing prices has also come a tightening of credit standards. You are correct that it may not be as much of a barrier as it has been in the past. However, as my point was that these communities may very well be even more desirable in the next 10-20 years, this may not be the case for long.

I