Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[Detroitnerd]

OMFG. Are you serious? I'm not relying on an article, I'm relying on people I know that run restaurants and businesses and work and live in the CBD.

Yes, I'm serious. I'm relying on international research, market research on millennials, economic statistics and a consensus among urban planners. You, in turn, are relying on anecdotal statements from some people you know? That's silly, Bailey.

Look, I don't know how to say this anymore clearly. I get that there are better ways to do this. I get that we're using public money to impart some private gain. My only point is I'd rather have most of something than all of nothing.

That's a false choice. Downtown is coming along nicely without a new hockey arena ... that is, except for the land that Ilitch is basically squatting to build upon. If this is nothing, give me all of it.

I'd rather see Illitch get his sportsplex, the JLA torn down which will open up more of the river, and get closer to an infilled CBD which keeps the positive momentum going downtown and up to MidTown than pretend like light rail is ever going to happen here or best practices in urban planning are ever going to be implemented.

There are so many assumptions underlying this statement that it's difficult to take it seriously. You seem to be reverse-engineering a plan out of the circumstance. You know what will fill in the CBD? Development will. Real development, resulting from developers plunking down their billions of dollars once they know the area will be the hub of a regional rapid transit system. If it doesn't happen, maybe it is because so many people, such as yourself, seem to believe it will never happen. There are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies, you know.

Anyway, I don't know why you're getting so worked up about this, Bailey. The plan you support is a bad one, the reasons you offer to support it are a jumble of half-baked assumptions and anecdotal musings, the things you dismiss are vitally important and the view underlying all this is about 20 years out of date. There are so many things wrong with it that ... that OF COURSE it has to be what will happen. Rest assured, that sector of downtown will be completely demolished on the taxpayer's dime, an unholy complex of parking garages and a giant stadium will go up on a superblock, and it will be there for about 30 years until it is demolished and the old street grid is re-established there.

You know, because Detroit is Chinatown. The bad ideas always win. Because the people with the money and political connections ensure that they do. And because people can't help but cheerlead for the stuff they're expertly programmed to do.

But just because this forum has a lot of intelligent people who enjoy talking about what a bad idea it is and why it should be stopped, don't despair. It will happen just as certainly as several hundred people will be gunned down in the city this year. Take it easy, pal.

[Detroitnerd]

Phoenix is in the middle of a desert. They have light rail. ;-)

I was picturing fewer commuters, more sand and sun-bleached ox skulls.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is my favorite quote, I think:

about 2 hours ago I was at an office in Ford Field. What was it prior to being ford field and 300k of class A office space? an empty building. Once CE completes its fit out and move, it'll be more full.

Yes. Because we all know that offices buildings don't get built unless they have 65,000 seat publicly-subsidized domed stadiums attached to them.

Maybe you were at Ford Field today, bailey, because you were there to visit an OFFICE, and not the damned FOOTBALL STADIUM. Did that thought ever occur to you?

Did the thought ever occur to you that those offices could have moved into that building with or without the stadium? I've designed a few office buildings in my life. I don't think any of them had NFL stadiums attached.

But see, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. So if one believes the fallacy that Stadiums Cause Development, then every development you see must have had something to do with the stadiums, right?

[bailey]

Yes, I'm serious. I'm relying on international research, market research on millennials, economic statistics and a consensus among urban planners. You, in turn, are relying on anecdotal statements from some people you know? That's silly, Bailey.

look, I'm relating what people who are actually on the ground, investing and working there are saying. those who can, do...those who can't, teach. Right Dr. Florida?

Florida himself, in his role as an editor at The Atlantic, admitted last month what his critics, including myself, have said for a decade: that the benefits of appealing to the creative class accrue largely to its members—and do little to make anyone else any better off. The rewards of the “creative class” strategy, he notes, “flow disproportionately to more highly-skilled knowledge, professional and creative workers,”

That's a false choice. Downtown is coming along nicely without a new hockey arena ... that is, except for the land that Ilitch is basically squatting to build upon. If this is nothing, give me all of it.

You mean the Downtown with a CoPa and a Ford Field where before there was an empty warehouse and surface lots? That downtown?

There are so many assumptions underlying this statement that it's difficult to take it seriously. You seem to be reverse-engineering a plan out of the circumstance. You know what will fill in the CBD? Development will. Real development, resulting from developers plunking down their billions of dollars once they know the area will be the hub of a regional rapid transit system. If it doesn't happen, maybe it is because so many people, such as yourself, seem to believe it will never happen. There are such things as self-fulfilling prophecies, you know.

Again, can only take the cards that are dealt. Waiting for the Angel of Mass Transit to come down and bless this region with some appreciation for it is a recipe for 35 more years of stagnation and brain drain. Maybe giving more of the region more of a reason to come downtown more often will plant that idea of ...hey, wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to drive there?

Anyway, I don't know why you're getting so worked up about this, Bailey.

I'm not in any way, shape or form "worked up". I think you're willifully ignoring reality.

The plan you support is a bad one, the reasons you offer to support it are a jumble of half-baked assumptions and anecdotal musings, the things you dismiss are vitally important and the view underlying all this is about 20 years out of date.

Ok. Fine.. So what is the realistic alternative? what should be done exactly? Seize all of Illitch's property, build 1,000,000 square feet of office and residential on spec and hope someone shows up? do a brick for brick rebuild of Hudsons?

Rest assured, that sector of downtown will be completely demolished on the taxpayer's dime,

It's ALREADY demolished. Its a dead Parrot. We're not talking about tearing down Penn Station to put up MSG. We're talking about getting something built on an urban wasteland of surface lots and blighted property.

an unholy complex of parking garages and a giant stadium will go up on a superblock,

This is not what I want to happen. I would like something not stupid. I'm cautiously optimistic lessons have been learned.

The bad ideas always win. Because the people with the money and political connections ensure that they do.

Yup.

And because people can't help but cheerlead for the stuff they're expertly programmed to do.

Or leave.

But just because this forum has a lot of intelligent people who enjoy talking about what a bad idea it is and why it should be stopped, don't despair.

Wonder what would happen if half as much time was spent doing something about it instead of moving out?

[ghettopalmetto]

Ok. Fine.. So what is the realistic alternative? what should be done exactly? Seize all of Illitch's property, build 1,000,000 square feet of office and residential on spec and hope someone shows up? do a brick for brick rebuild of Hudsons?

It's ALREADY demolished. Its a dead Parrot. We're not talking about tearing down Penn Station to put up MSG. We're talking about getting something built on an urban wasteland of surface lots and blighted property.

The realistic alternative is:

1) You stop giving Mike Ilitch public money to demolish buildings. Likewise, you stop handing him property that he uses to charge $20 a car for parking.

2) You enforce the building codes and levy fines for improper upkeep and code violations for buildings that Mr. Ilitch currently owns.

3) You conduct plan review of a new hockey arena as part of the expected permitting process. No more, no less. Mr. Ilitch is a billionaire, is allowed to obtain private financing to construct his own arena, and does not need to have the public contributing to his profits. Not sure if you know this or not, but the City of Detroit is in a bankruptcy restructuring. No money for pensions, but plenty of cash available for Mike Ilitch's personal gain? Does not compute.

and 4) You change the property tax structure so that vacant buildings are charged a far higher millage than occupied buildings, and vacant lots are charged a higher millage still. If that means slumlord billionaires have to pay a few more shekels to allow their decrepit speculation projects to disgrace the city, so be it. Oh--and COLLECT on the damn taxes.

You might think spec development is "unrealistic", but the low vacancy rates show that new residential development is VERY realistic. Your preferred plan, however, is to lob hundreds of millions of dollars at Mike Ilitch, hope and pray he uses it to build something not-too-detestable, then wait for a chicken wing emporium to open across the street. A $600 million Bar Louie--where do I sign up for this???

[bailey]

[QUOTE=ghettopalmetto;407389]

Yes. Because we all know that offices buildings don't get built unless they have 65,000 seat publicly-subsidized domed stadiums attached to them.

Did I say that? No. I said there is one where you claim there isn't.

Maybe you were at Ford Field today, bailey, because you were there to visit an OFFICE, and not the damned FOOTBALL STADIUM. Did that thought ever occur to you?

yes. exactly. Is that a difficult point for you to grasp? its a Multi use building that is NOT entirely empty on a non game day.

Did the thought ever occur to you that those offices could have moved into that building with or without the stadium? I've designed a few office buildings in my life. I don't think any of them had NFL stadiums attached.

It did. Again, trying to deal in reality here. so... try to keep up. They Weren't being developed.

But see, when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. So if one believes the fallacy that Stadiums Cause Development, then every development you see must have had something to do with the stadiums, right?

Clearly you need someone to argue with so you'll continue to willfully misrepresnt what I'm saying but I can't use smaller words so read slowly: I know it's fucked up and stupid, but what has happened downtown over the last 10 years would not have, had it not been for the public subsidies to private business and the building of the stadia.

[DetroitPlanner]

OK, DP, find me a downtown in the middle of a desert?

A town of 100 in the dessert will have probably more than one would think. It would be a center of trade and probably contain much more than its population would support normally. This would be due to having folks travel for long distances to get to it and supporting its economy and due to it most likely being a stop for cross country travellers.

Even still it would not have the density or the demand for light rail. Granted my case is extreme, but it shows that light rail is dependant on other factors that will spur economic development. Yes, under the right conditions you can use it to boost economic development, but Light Rail in and of itself will have no multiplier if those conditions do not have a market to exist.

I am still more supportive of improving transit than using money for stadiums as a way to generate economic activity and wealth among Detroit's general population.

[bailey]

The realistic alternative is:

1) You stop giving Mike Ilitch public money to demolish buildings. Likewise, you stop handing him property that he uses to charge $20 a car for parking.

2) You enforce the building codes and levy fines for improper upkeep and code violations for buildings that Mr. Ilitch currently owns.

3) You conduct plan review of a new hockey arena as part of the expected permitting process. No more, no less. Mr. Ilitch is a billionaire, is allowed to obtain private financing to construct his own arena, and does not need to have the public contributing to his profits. Not sure if you know this or not, but the City of Detroit is in a bankruptcy restructuring. No money for pensions, but plenty of cash available for Mike Ilitch's personal gain? Does not compute.

and 4) You change the property tax structure so that vacant buildings are charged a far higher millage than occupied buildings, and vacant lots are charged a higher millage still. If that means slumlord billionaires have to pay a few more shekels to allow their decrepit speculation projects to disgrace the city, so be it.

All of that would fall under "competent City and County government".... when that shows up, let me know.

[ghettopalmetto]

I know it's fucked up and stupid, but what has happened downtown over the last 10 years would not have, had it not been for the public subsidies to private business and the building of the stadia.

And THAT is why Detroit is in bankruptcy. Because people like you keep thinking that if you throw just a few hundred million more dollars at your gracious billionaire benefactors, that maybe they won't fleece you quite as fucking badly this time.

Where in the hell is the blue-collar can-do spirit that made Detroit? Christ on Toast. This is a total abdication of civic responsibility. But in the era of privatized profits and socialized losses, it's really just par for the course.

Keep waiting for your Billionaire Saviors to fix Detroit. They're going to soak the City and State for every last nickel on which they can get their filthy, corrupt, fascist hands.

...but hey...beer and chicken wings.

[Detroitnerd]

look, I'm relating what people who are actually on the ground, investing and working there are saying. those who can, do...those who can't, teach. Right Dr. Florida?

Name-checking Florida to dismiss legitimate urban planning is like trying to dismiss electrical theory because Tesla became a kook in his old age.

You mean the Downtown with a CoPa and a Ford Field where before there was an empty warehouse and surface lots? That downtown?

Now there's a largely empty ballpark with lots of surface lots. Big difference...

Again, can only take the cards that are dealt.

and fast-forward to...

Wonder what would happen if half as much time was spent doing something about it

By the way, that sector of downtown isn't totally demolished. It has some very nice remnants of Park Avenue from the old days which are being demolished by neglect.

The fact that you're proposing seizing Ilitch's holdings and enacting some authoritarian plan shows me that you're not really a serious thinker. It's either crony capitalism or perhaps the Red Army hanging Ilitch from a streelamp before you can shout "FIDEL!" Good policy and good laws and smart subsidies bring out the best in private enterprise. This is all bad. So I want to urge you to sit back and enjoy the shitshow that is about to begin. But don't bother defending it to me or to us. It's dumber than a sack of doorknobs to shovel $400 million precious public dollars into the pockets of one of the city's richest people -- for any reason at all.

[Detroitnerd]

A town of 100 in the dessert will have probably more than one would think. It would be a center of trade and probably contain much more than its population would support normally. This would be due to having folks travel for long distances to get to it and supporting its economy and due to it most likely being a stop for cross country travellers.

Even still it would not have the density or the demand for light rail. Granted my case is extreme, but it shows that light rail is dependant on other factors that will spur economic development. Yes, under the right conditions you can use it to boost economic development, but Light Rail in and of itself will have no multiplier if those conditions do not have a market to exist.

I am still more supportive of improving transit than using money for stadiums as a way to generate economic activity and wealth among Detroit's general population.

But isn't this all academic? As well as inside baseball for the average lay person. I believe study after study has shown that Woodward has the ridership to merit an upgrade to light rail. And study after study shows that light rail engenders TOD and density. So there ya go.

[bailey]

Where in the hell is the blue-collar can-do spirit that made Detroit?

It moved to Auburn hills, Dearborn, Southfield, Troy, Ann Arbor, Taylor, Mexico and China.

Keep waiting for your Billionaire Saviors to fix Detroit. They're going to soak the City and State for every last nickel on which they can get their filthy, corrupt, fascist hands.

I mean...says the guy in South Carolina with out a hint of irony.

[ghettopalmetto]

It moved to Auburn hills, Dearborn, Southfield, Troy, Ann Arbor, Taylor, Mexico and China.

Obviously. Seems like most everyone left in Detroit is ready to get on their knees for Mike Ilitch again. Oh please, sir, here's $400 million. Now can we have some chicken wings and watered-down beer? Oh please, we'll take anything. Anything, really!

Detroit has become the ugly girl on prom night. Congratulations.

I mean...says the guy in South Carolina with out a hint of irony.

Regardless of the snide affiliation you're trying to create in your head, I wouldn't get too cocky. With the way Detroit and Michigan throw cash and praise at people named Karmanos, DeVos, Ilitch, and Gilbert, one could mistake this arena episode for a Nikki Haley shitshow.

[DetroitPlanner]

But isn't this all academic? As well as inside baseball for the average lay person. I believe study after study has shown that Woodward has the ridership to merit an upgrade to light rail. And study after study shows that light rail engenders TOD and density. So there ya go.

It certainly is, but the way it was stated was that light rail is what makes the difference. Light rail will not do squat unless the conditions are there. Why do you think this mode was left in the dust in the 1950's [[when the automobile became the primary conveyance)? If it makes economic sense now, it would have then too, but it did not.

Again. I support improvements to transit over money grabs by billionaires.

[ghettopalmetto]

It certainly is, but the way it was stated was that light rail is what makes the difference. Light rail will not do squat unless the conditions are there. Why do you think this mode was left in the dust in the 1950's [[when the automobile became the primary conveyance)? If it makes economic sense now, it would have then too, but it did not.

Funny you say that. All the photographs and videos I've seen such that American cities were much more economically healthy and vibrant at that time. Now, half of our cities look like Berlin and Gdansk and Warszawa ca. 1950s.

Now we just shower all our money on billionaires to build stadiums, and HOPE something happens.

[iheartthed]

It certainly is, but the way it was stated was that light rail is what makes the difference. Light rail will not do squat unless the conditions are there. Why do you think this mode was left in the dust in the 1950's [[when the automobile became the primary conveyance)? If it makes economic sense now, it would have then too, but it did not.

Again. I support improvements to transit over money grabs by billionaires.

Government intervention killed street level rail, not economics.

[DetroitPlanner]

Funny you say that. All the photographs and videos I've seen such that American cities were much more economically healthy and vibrant at that time. Now, half of our cities look like Berlin and Gdansk and Warszawa ca. 1950s.

Now we just shower all our money on billionaires to build stadiums, and HOPE something happens.

You're still equating the impact of light rail to the City, and not its density/market conditions. With the increase that you are seeing along the Woodward corridor over the last few years you are improving the market conditions to the point where you can put in the Streetcar and it will have positive effects due to agglomeration. It is not the Streetcar itself that makes this work, it is the area around it. The streetcar helps reduce impediments to travel, which in turn increase value. This is what has been shown in the Euclid/Healthline Corridor. It would have never worked without some expansion and need to get folks from Terminal Tower to the expanding Cleveland Clinic. Now you get all of the extra benefits along the line. It is no different than all of the housing going in around WSU and the jobs boom downtown.

[DetroitPlanner]

Government intervention killed street level rail, not economics.

Yes it was government that bought up all of the failing streetcars from private interests that could not make a go of it because they were losing money after the land around the line was fully developed. Eventually the whole system fell because the cost of car ownership was very cheap [[remember Ford targeted his cars so that everyone could buy one).

Now the cost of cars and incomes have changed that differential. People need choices besides cars so that the economy can flourish again.

Don't blame govt, don't blame GM. It is all supply and demand as the streetcars started dying decades before the last ones left service. It was the Cities that kept them operating and great expense.

[ghettopalmetto]

You're still equating the impact of light rail to the City, and not its density/market conditions. With the increase that you are seeing along the Woodward corridor over the last few years you are improving the market conditions to the point where you can put in the Streetcar and it will have positive effects due to agglomeration. It is not the Streetcar itself that makes this work, it is the area around it. The streetcar helps reduce impediments to travel, which in turn increase value. This is what has been shown in the Euclid/Healthline Corridor. It would have never worked without some expansion and need to get folks from Terminal Tower to the expanding Cleveland Clinic. Now you get all of the extra benefits along the line. It is no different than all of the housing going in around WSU and the jobs boom downtown.

Seriously? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The Euclid Avenue corridor is the old #6 bus, but with prepayment of fare. People ALWAYS had to get between the Terminal Tower and University Circle [[You might be familiar with the term "Millionaire's Row"?). Which is why the #6 was ALWAYS the busiest bus route in the system. In fact, in the early 1980s, when I was a young pup, they were talking about building a SUBWAY line beneath Euclid Avenue. That was at least a decade-and-a-half before the onset of the Clinic's massive expansion.

And "extra benefits"? Yeah, the flowers they planted are real pretty. Visit Cleveland sometime. At least once. Seriously.

You're just making shit up to justify a ham-handed claim. It's okay to to bail out of your waders and come away with your personal pride intact. Just be honest...I'm not even sure that even you believe half the stuff you write, Planner.

[DetroitPlanner]

And "extra benefits"? Yeah, the flowers they planted are real pretty. Visit Cleveland sometime. At least once. Seriously.

I have visited it and rode it. Much of what I talk about is well documented here:
http://magazine.planning.org/print.p...d=159219&ref=1
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...internati.html
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index..._gives_mo.html
http://www.planetizen.com/node/57752

The upgraded transit now utilizes such nice features are pre-paid stops, signal priority to allow it to zip along the corridor much faster, and carry many more people than a traditional bus would. Its not my fault that the only thing you notice are flowers. Show me your documentation, I ain't makin' up $h!t! BBWWAAAA yourself.

My choice? Spend the money on decreasing barriers to getting people and goods to where they need to go to help grow the economy - not billionaires.

[iheartthed]

Yes it was government that bought up all of the failing streetcars from private interests that could not make a go of it because they were losing money after the land around the line was fully developed. Eventually the whole system fell because the cost of car ownership was very cheap [[remember Ford targeted his cars so that everyone could buy one).

Now the cost of cars and incomes have changed that differential. People need choices besides cars so that the economy can flourish again.

Don't blame govt, don't blame GM. It is all supply and demand as the streetcars started dying decades before the last ones left service. It was the Cities that kept them operating and great expense.

I don't get your line of reasoning. Are you saying that street cars are a failure because they weren't successful as for profit enterprises? Well then apply that same logic to roads. And air travel.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't get your line of reasoning. Are you saying that street cars are a failure because they weren't successful as for profit enterprises? Well then apply that same logic to roads. And air travel.

No, I was replying to the person that said govt screwed up the streetcar. Govt stepped up and ran the streetcars after the private companies dumped them. Why would a private company dump the streetcar? Because once they ran out of land to develop, they had no need for a streetcar to sell properties. Read the links.

Note that we have come full circle. The private sector is now developing the land along Woodward. They are also picking up 85 percent of the tab of the Streetcar. Now it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is currently an opportunity that is drawing private investment to the corridor. My biggest fear is that once everything is developed and sold off, that the line will lose its money maker [[Compuware, Gilbert, Little Ceasers) just like it did before and the city will be stuck with unsustainable high operating costs.

[Spartan]

Oh please, sir, here's $400 million. Now can we have some chicken wings and watered-down beer? Oh please, we'll take anything. Anything, really!

You're making a few good points, but your sensationalism and exaggeration isn't helping.

[ghettopalmetto]

No, I was replying to the person that said govt screwed up the streetcar. Govt stepped up and ran the streetcars after the private companies dumped them. Why would a private company dump the streetcar? Because once they ran out of land to develop, they had no need for a streetcar to sell properties. Read the links.

Note that we have come full circle. The private sector is now developing the land along Woodward. They are also picking up 85 percent of the tab of the Streetcar. Now it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is currently an opportunity that is drawing private investment to the corridor. My biggest fear is that once everything is developed and sold off, that the line will lose its money maker [[Compuware, Gilbert, Little Ceasers) just like it did before and the city will be stuck with unsustainable high operating costs.

A big reason privately-owned streetcars became unsustainable was that governments began dictating where the traction companies had to provide service--and also placed caps on fare increases. The private IRT and BMT subway lines in New York were taken over by the City for this reason too. There was still *plenty* of developable land in the 1950s.

The problem is, the private sector isn't developing the corridor. In the case of Ilitchplayland, it's being constructed with hundreds of millions of public dollars, which go right into the pocket of Olympia, never to be seen again. Even more public dollars go into speculative "development" where perfectly usable buildings are demolished, raising the financial barriers to new development.

These enormous and expensive Project Plans don't work as-advertised, and they haven't worked since at least the Ren Cen was built in 1977. It makes you wonder when Detroit is going to learn this incredibly expensive and wasteful lesson.

[canuck]

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Oh please, sir, here's $400 million. Now can we have some chicken wings and watered-down beer? Oh please, we'll take anything. Anything, really!

Spartan You're making a few good points, but your sensationalism and exaggeration isn't helping.

I was just thinking...

There must be a way of having our stadium, and eating our chicken wings too!