Guess Sports DO make a big contribution to an area's energy and economic vitality

[Wesley Mouch]

The Tea Party is SO financially responsible. Its estimated that the government shutdown orchestrated by Calgary Cruz and his ilk cost at least 24 billion dollars.

Don't always believe what you hear from biased sources. I'm sure there was some cost. Nothing wrong with some cost in pursuit of noble goals. I haven't heard any reports about costs except from folks with an opinion. What doesn't cost something.

This thread is about investment in economic development. I mostly agree. Don't like government thinking it can decide what development works and what won't. But we're in a city that's financially at risk. We can't be the ones to start chasing away sports teams. It does need to be done. Close off that trough. But let's not start with Detroit where its clear that there is spinoff and its clear that it works, and clear that it may not be very efficient -- but has been without any doubt good for the city.

[Honky Tonk]

Don't always believe what you hear from biased sources. I'm sure there was some cost. Nothing wrong with some cost in pursuit of noble goals. I haven't heard any reports about costs except from folks with an opinion. What doesn't cost something.

This thread is about investment in economic development. I mostly agree. Don't like government thinking it can decide what development works and what won't. But we're in a city that's financially at risk. We can't be the ones to start chasing away sports teams. It does need to be done. Close off that trough. But let's not start with Detroit where its clear that there is spinoff and its clear that it works, and clear that it may not be very efficient -- but has been without any doubt good for the city.

http://swampland.time.com/2013/10/17...t-the-economy/

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ment-shutdown/

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...-quarterly-gdp

Since we're talking opinions, mine is Cruz is an A-HO'.

[ghettopalmetto]

We're in a city that's financially at risk. We can't be the ones to start chasing away sports teams. It does need to be done. Close off that trough. But let's not start with Detroit where its clear that there is spinoff and its clear that it works, and clear that it may not be very efficient -- but has been without any doubt good for the city.

So yeah, let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get a Buffalo Wild Wings. Never mind you can build a brand new Buffalo Wild Wings from scratch for less than $2 million.

I guess cities without subsidized professional sports teams are just screwed if they want to eat a meal or drink a beer, huh?

I've never seen a city work so hard or spend so much money with the stated goal of recreating suburban schlock in the middle of an urban environment. Best of luck to ya, Detroit. Once you're done building Troy-in-the-City, let us know how many people stick around.

[Wesley Mouch]

So yeah, let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get a Buffalo Wild Wings. Never mind you can build a brand new Buffalo Wild Wings from scratch for less than $2 million.

I guess cities without subsidized professional sports teams are just screwed if they want to eat a meal or drink a beer, huh?

I've never seen a city work so hard or spend so much money with the stated goal of recreating suburban schlock in the middle of an urban environment. Best of luck to ya, Detroit. Once you're done building Troy-in-the-City, let us know how many people stick around.

GP: Hundreds of Millions [[that will be mostly repair by ticket surcharges) paid for not just one BWW. A little less melodrama would look good on you.

But now that you mention it, if Detroit had not financially contributed to JLA [[per CAY) and Comerica/Ford, I think things would be just a little more difficult.

[canuck]

So yeah, let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars to get a Buffalo Wild Wings. Never mind you can build a brand new Buffalo Wild Wings from scratch for less than $2 million.

I guess cities without subsidized professional sports teams are just screwed if they want to eat a meal or drink a beer, huh?

I've never seen a city work so hard or spend so much money with the stated goal of recreating suburban schlock in the middle of an urban environment. Best of luck to ya, Detroit. Once you're done building Troy-in-the-City, let us know how many people stick around.

I think that if the city's culture has traditionally devolved towards a suburban concept of superior lifestyle; then it is only fitting that suburban frameworks emerge in the central districts. Detroit is not alone in this but it occupies a preeminent place on the podium of cities delegating to suburban lifestyle choices.

Everywhere in North America, folks are crowding in on downtowns with sports venues and sports bars. There was never any pretense of fine urbanity in that type of appeal. Let's not pretend Detroit is a mecca for uber urbanity, let's accept that it contains a great downtown and fearsome sprawl. You can bring downtown to further decline if you do not make the metro congregate to it, and the best way so far to restore popular appeal has been in the introduction of Casinos, new sports venues and major spaces like Cobo Hall. Festivals have perennial appeal and draw crowds that might otherwise not frequent a city with poor retail options in 2013. I reiterate that a higher potential for transit development will come from having a stadium, less certain if it is built in Novi.

[antongast]

I reiterate that a higher potential for transit development will come from having a stadium, less certain if it is built in Novi.

What kind of cargo-cult shit is this? Transit doesn't just magically spring up if you build the right mix of amenities and pray really hard. You get better transit by directly investing public money in providing better transit. If you instead choose to invest public money in subsidizing the for-profit business ventures of well-connected billionaires, then instead of transit what you get is somewhat richer billionaires.

[wolverine]

steve, they certainly do.

but the question doubters have posed is: does that increased vitality offset the amount spent on subsidies for stadia, including infrastructure upgrades.

seems the dominant answer is "probably not"

Or is it really helping. The city is still tearing down office and retail buildings for parking. Sure stadiums can bring accessory development, but I regularly disagree that sports venues are a silver bullet solution to downtown vitality. More jobs, more shopping, more residents are needed

[canuck]

What kind of cargo-cult shit is this? Transit doesn't just magically spring up if you build the right mix of amenities and pray really hard. You get better transit by directly investing public money in providing better transit. If you instead choose to invest public money in subsidizing the for-profit business ventures of well-connected billionaires, then instead of transit what you get is somewhat richer billionaires.

It doesnt spring up out of nowhere, yes. But dont forget the M1 rail is funded in major part by a bunch of billionaires also. Where are the clamoring crowds of transit supporters that demand better transit in your region? Political will is directly related to pressure directed by the populace on these issues. Lobby hard and true, and maybe a choo-choo train can appear out of a hat; in the meantime, dont think that no stadium in the core city will help it restore its preeminence.

I agree with you that subsidies or long periods of tax abatements are not a good way of introducing such projects because the city needs the money to deliver it just doesnt have. But I believe good planning that contains the germ of retail and service delivery in the immediate area can help the city.

[Wesley Mouch]

Can anyone enlighten us with detail on how the sports stadiums were financed?

I do not think there was much if any general tax revenue to subsidize the construction. The city/county authorities typically borrow money against future ticket revenues. If the Tigers were to move to Novi, then there's no ticket revenue. If a new stadium is built, then the city gets buck or two from the ticket to pay back the bonds sold to finance the stadium.

This means the real payers of the subsidy are the Tigers fans watching the American League finals and every other event. Am I wrong here?

This seems like exactly what you want to do. Drive development by financing construction of something that pays you back every day. An example to me of what we're doing right to increase tax revenues -- and not let them go to zero by driving the team to the 'burbs -- who would most certainly finance those stadiums exactly the same way on the backs of the fans.

So to the thread title: YES -- Sports DO make a big contribution to the area's energy and vitality!

[Gistok]

COMERICA PARK

62% privately finance by Ilitch's... $165 million.

The remaining 38%:

Indian Casino State Revenue
2% car rental tax
1% hotel tax.


FORD FIELD

An estimated $420 million was privately financed by the Lions

The remaining $80 million came from four public entities each paying $20 million toward infrastructure work -- water and sewer lines, streets, etc. -- that supports Ford Field:

• City of Detroit - $20 million
• Wayne County - $20 million.
• Downtown Development Authority -$20 million
• Michigan Strategic Fund - $20 million

[Wesley Mouch]

COMERICA PARK

62% privately finance by Ilitch's... $165 million.

The remaining 38%:

Indian Casino State Revenue
2% car rental tax
1% hotel tax.


FORD FIELD

An estimated $420 million was privately financed by the Lions

The remaining $80 million came from four public entities each paying $20 million toward infrastructure work -- water and sewer lines, streets, etc. -- that supports Ford Field:

• City of Detroit - $20 million
• Wayne County - $20 million.
• Downtown Development Authority -$20 million
• Michigan Strategic Fund - $20 million

Thanks. So very little money that could have been used elsewhere was used. Certainly not $500m that could have funded police, schools, etc. -- and if so dedicated would have gone mostly down the rat hole of Detroit spending that's just now getting paved over.

Conclusion: few public dollars invested = seeds of Detroit development that continue to pay off.

[rb336]

Just something to think about - it cost $1 BILLION to renovate madison square garden. The new lease is only 10 years, and the Port Authority might very well NOT renew it because they want to renovate Penn Station

[ghettopalmetto]

Just something to think about - it cost $1 BILLION to renovate madison square garden. The new lease is only 10 years, and the Port Authority might very well NOT renew it because they want to renovate Penn Station

First the Dodgers and Giants leave for California, then the Giants build a new stadium in New Jersey and...what will New York ever do without Madison Square Garden??? Without sports, people will have no reason to come into the city!

Better tear down the old post office across the street for better parking and a Buffalo Wild Wings.

[Hermod]

This isn't a case of graft and corruption unless there are bribes and under the table kickbacks.

1. Owner says he needs a new stadium. He is willing to pay X towards it and wants the locality to contribute Y.

2. Mayor says screw you we don't have the money.

3. Owner says he has a really nice offer from city Z.

4. Mayor says maybe we can find the money.

5. Owner and mayor reach an agreement based on who has the most bargaining power.

Note at step 3, the mayor has two choices, either to consider ponying up taxpayer dollars or telling the owner to go ahead and walk. Either way he will be criticized for cutting a "sweetheart deal" or he will be criticized for losing the team. There is nothing corrupt or dishonest about this process.

[rb336]

Please remember that Detroit taxpayers voted for the particular tax that will partially pay for the bonds, and then only if the revenues from concessions and other arena-related funds fail to be enough. It is being funded by bonds, and that is the term of those bonds. And these particular taxes are not taxes on the income or property of Detroit residents, but are taxes levied on hotels, bar and car rentals, and the bonds are guaranteed by the state, who is the issuing party, not the city.

[bailey]

Better tear down the old post office across the street for better parking and a Buffalo Wild Wings.

IIRC, the BW3 in Detroit went in and re-used a building that had been abandoned and falling apart for about ...what? 30 years?

Piss and moan all you want about the TRAGEDY of a chain restaurant taking up space in a CBD.... but lets remember the BW people didn't demand the taxpayer fund a tear down of the building and another building torn down for a surface lot to service it.

This one [[and a lot of everything else going on downtown...) was actually done right. In fact it's exactly the type of development/ adaptive re-use [[buzzword.. I know) everyone around here is clamoring for. This and all the rest going on downtown wouldn't have happened without incentives to Karmanos, Gilbert and Illitch to build stadiums and/or move downtown.

[ghettopalmetto]

Piss and moan all you want about the TRAGEDY of a chain restaurant taking up space in a CBD.... but lets remember the BW people didn't demand the taxpayer fund a tear down of the building and another building torn down for a surface lot to service it.

This one [[and a lot of everything else going on downtown...) was actually done right. In fact it's exactly the type of development/ adaptive re-use [[buzzword.. I know) everyone around here is clamoring for. This and all the rest going on downtown wouldn't have happened without incentives to Karmanos, Gilbert and Illitch to build stadiums and/or move downtown.

I have nothing against BW3. Let's not pretend that subsidies to Mike Ilitch and the subsequent demolition of several historic properties [[see any irony here???) were the cause of the opening of this restaurant. If folks really wanted to build a BW3, then just hand them the money to fit-out the space: It's a lot cheaper.

My town has a downtown Wild Wing Cafe, which is not unlike Buffalo Wild Wings. Makes me wonder which billionaire we had to subsidize for that one, especially since we don't have any professional sports teams.

I read this billionaire apologist crap, and I think that a lot of folks who post here really just have no idea what makes cities work. You're all just throwing darts, hoping and praying that with just a few hundred million more dollars in giveaways, and just a few more demolished buildings, Detroit will finally start to pop.

[iheartthed]

IIRC, the BW3 in Detroit went in and re-used a building that had been abandoned and falling apart for about ...what? 30 years?

Piss and moan all you want about the TRAGEDY of a chain restaurant taking up space in a CBD.... but lets remember the BW people didn't demand the taxpayer fund a tear down of the building and another building torn down for a surface lot to service it.

This one [[and a lot of everything else going on downtown...) was actually done right. In fact it's exactly the type of development/ adaptive re-use [[buzzword.. I know) everyone around here is clamoring for. This and all the rest going on downtown wouldn't have happened without incentives to Karmanos, Gilbert and Illitch to build stadiums and/or move downtown.

How many buildings were destroyed to build the stadiums? They couldn't even save the Madison Lenox... I don't think anyone is demonizing BW3, but just questioning the idea put forth by the OP that this was the best use of taxpayer money to "save" Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

How many buildings were destroyed to build the stadiums? They couldn't even save the Madison Lenox... I don't think anyone is demonizing BW3, but just questioning the idea put forth by the OP that this was the best use of taxpayer money to "save" Detroit.

Funny that there's always money to build stadiums and convention centers, there's always money to demolish a building, but there's almost never any money to renovate an old building. And, as Bailey aptly notes, it's these old buildings that tenants seek, yet there are less and less of these spaces as Detroit runs full-tilt toward Fairfaxing itself.

[bailey]

I have nothing against BW3. Let's not pretend that subsidies to Mike Ilitch and the subsequent demolition of several historic properties [[see any irony here???) were the cause of the opening of this restaurant. If folks really wanted to build a BW3, then just hand them the money to fit-out the space: It's a lot cheaper.

My town has a downtown Wild Wing Cafe, which is not unlike Buffalo Wild Wings. Makes me wonder which billionaire we had to subsidize for that one, especially since we don't have any professional sports teams.

I read this billionaire apologist crap, and I think that a lot of folks who post here really just have no idea what makes cities work. You're all just throwing darts, hoping and praying that with just a few hundred million more dollars in giveaways, and just a few more demolished buildings, Detroit will finally start to pop.

I guess I'll ask again... what city or state in our nation does not deploy tax incentives to drive development?

I mean is it a personal thing with you and these individuals and massive giveaways to Corporation is preferable?

"South Carolina recently took on a $218 million debt to assist Boeing’s expansion there and offered the company tax breaks for 10 years.

In May, Charleston County council voted to give Boeing a tax break for the next three decades as it invests another billion dollars and brings 2,000 more jobs to North Charleston,

Or this...

South Carolina's positive business environment starts with its corporate income tax structure. Businesses located in South Carolina benefit from:

• 5% corporate income tax, among the lowest in the nation.
• Corporations engaged in multi-state operations are taxed only on the portion of income derived from doing business in South Carolina.
• The basis for South Carolina's gross corporate income and taxable corporate income is based primarily upon a corporation's federal gross income and taxable income.
• Numerous credits and methods to reduce and eliminate corporate income tax liability [[see tax credits tab)

I'm sure none of these massive subsidies [[..in Boeing's case, done almost entirely to bust the Union) has anything to do with Charleston's economic outlook....or the decision for that BWs knock off to to open multiple locations there.

[bailey]

How many buildings were destroyed to build the stadiums? They couldn't even save the Madison Lenox... I don't think anyone is demonizing BW3, but just questioning the idea put forth by the OP that this was the best use of taxpayer money to "save" Detroit.

By the time CoPA went up? not many IIRC. It was DCL [[which was going out of buisiness and lost its accrediation... the elwood and the gem. The former was bought and moved to MSU...the later were moved to their current location.

Ford Field is incorporated into the old warehouse and uses it as office space [[Bodman and now Campell Ewald being the anchor tenants) and suites. to recycle and reuse the space they had to get permission to run the field in a different direction than in any other stadium.

I absolutely agree that COPA set back is stupid and it could have been executed better. I absolutely agree that Detroit is plagued by morons in positions of great power when it comes to preservation. I further agree that Illitch gets away with bullshit like the Madison way too often. I am hoping that Gilbert and the people that are currently driving alot of the investment downtown are in on the process to design the new Hockey district so it's not just a stand alone stadium and towering parking structures.

What was a better use? Build 15 blocks of mixed use residential on Spec?

[Hermod]

Funny that there's always money to build stadiums and convention centers, there's always money to demolish a building, but there's almost never any money to renovate an old building. And, as Bailey aptly notes, it's these old buildings that tenants seek, yet there are less and less of these spaces as Detroit runs full-tilt toward Fairfaxing itself.

I do not see parallels between Detroit and Fairfax. Fairfax is more analogous
to Oakland County in that it was a rural county with small towns that invited and was overrun by suburbia. Except for Falls Church and the courthouse area, there was nothing historically significant in Fairfax. Seven Corners, Bailey's Crossroads, Tyson's Corners, and Springfield were built from scratch and not by tearing down "historic" buildings.

[Gistok]

How many buildings were destroyed to build the stadiums? They couldn't even save the Madison Lenox... I don't think anyone is demonizing BW3, but just questioning the idea put forth by the OP that this was the best use of taxpayer money to "save" Detroit.

Don't forget the relocation of the Gem & Century Theatres, as well as the Elwood Bar...

http://www.internationalchimney.com/...etroit_MI.html

[ghettopalmetto]

Bailey, I honestly have no idea what you're saying.

Billionaires, and profitable multi-billion dollar corporations, do not need public subsidies, and certainly not from a City and State that have struggled to balance their budgets. Not only have the subsidies to Olympia forever destroyed the landscape in downtown Detroit and tilted the field away from small entrepreneurs and existing businesses, but there has been ZERO accounting of what the City of Detroit and State of Michigan have received for their investment. Is it a positive return? Negative return? Or are we just happy that we get to stuff our faces with chicken wings and cheap beer?

[ghettopalmetto]

What was a better use? Build 15 blocks of mixed use residential on Spec?

Considering that residential occupancy in Downtown and Midtown is 97 percent? Yes.