What if Detroit were part of Canada?

[bailey]

As counterpoint to "What if Windsor were part of the U.S.?" What if Detroit had never been retaken by the United States in the War of 1812 and the Canadian land border sprawled over into the three counties of metro Detroit?

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

[Detroitnerd]

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

That's a good point, you know. Canada doesn't have a whole lot of land in temperate zones, and would likely keep Detroit, which is about a half-zone warmer than the rest of the southeastern part of the state, devoted to largely agricultural uses, with a tight central city.

[iheartthed]

It would look like everything else does about a mile outside Windsor on the 401 and what most of the thumb looks like today. It would be largely rural, sparsely populated farmland.... with a shitload of wind turbines. Heck, Windsor would probably not exist as it does today. All that made Detroit Detroit, would probably have happened in like, Pt Huron...or Grand Rapids...or Toledo.

Or maybe Toronto wouldn't exist in the form that it does today. Detroit likely would still have been a big industrial city no matter what side of the border it ended up on. Maybe not a 2 million person city in 1950, but probably not less than an equivalent of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. Toronto on the other hand owes much of its 20th century population growth to the politics between French and English speaking Canada. If Detroit was the "big city" of English Canada then it would likely have been the beneficiary instead of Toronto...

[bailey]

Or maybe Toronto wouldn't exist in the form that it does today. Detroit likely would still have been a big industrial city no matter what side of the border it ended up on. Maybe not a 2 million person city in 1950, but probably not less than an equivalent of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. Toronto on the other hand owes much of its 20th century population growth to the politics between French and English speaking Canada. If Detroit was the "big city" of English Canada then it would likely have been the beneficiary instead of Toronto...

Ok... Why? You're assuming Detroit would have been the second tier industrial hub it was in the late 1800/early 1900.. even if it had been in Canada. Windsor wasn't...so why assume Detroit would be? All those tired huddled masses immigrating in the 1800s weren't going to Canada. They were going to Industrial cities in the US. And then Detroit exploded with Henry Ford and his $5 work day.

If Ford's dad wanted to emigrate to Canada...he could have, but didn't. Windsor had aboot 20k in the Henry Ford days... its only barely over 200k now. What would the region look like if Ford's dad settled in Toledo?

It would look just like the rest of Ontario... mostly rural, very white, and relatively sparsely populated.

[bailey]

Detroit was also notable for its lack of racial strife during the war. While other industrial cities and population centers saw bloody race riots in the Midwest, fueled by wartime immigration from the Deep South, Detroit pulled its wartime labor force from rural Ontario and other provinces."

What is that from some Detroit Chamber of Commerce Brochure from the 50s?

That is a load of bunk. I mean Jefferies had to call in the Army to stop race riots for cripes sake.

[Detroitnerd]

I wonder what the effects of not having the income from Detroit could have been on the state of Michigan. In the "big city" scenario, not having the Detroit area would have meant the loss of at least three million residents from the state in the 1950 census, cutting Michigan's population almost in half. Instead of 6.3 million residents, the state would be less populous than Wisconsin. All that lost tax revenue could certainly have meant Michigan would remain a rural backwater.

[iheartthed]

Ok... Why? You're assuming Detroit would have been the second tier industrial hub it was in the late 1800/early 1900.. even if it had been in Canada. Windsor wasn't...so why assume Detroit would be?

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

[bailey]

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

Yes.. shipping route, but, without the auto industry...wouldn't it just look like Sarnia and Pt Huron?

[iheartthed]

Yes.. shipping route, but, without the auto industry...wouldn't it just look like Sarnia and Pt Huron?

I doubt it. Detroit was the largest settlement north of Cincinnati and west of Pittsburgh from when it was settled until at least the mid 19th century when Chicago began to grow. It was already a mid-size American city before the auto industry, seeing as it's been in the top 20 since the 1840 census; it reached top 20 a full decade before Chicago.

[Detroitnerd]

I doubt it. Detroit was the largest settlement north of Cincinnati and west of Pittsburgh from when it was settled until at least the mid 19th century when Chicago began to grow. It was already a mid-size American city before the auto industry, seeing as it's been in the top 20 since the 1840 census; it reached top 20 a full decade before Chicago.

But those figures can be deceiving too. When you consider that London was the largest city in the world in 1840, at more than 2 million, and Manhattan and Brooklyn combined had just 350,000. In 1840, the 10th largest U.S. city, Charleston, S.C., had a population of about 30,000. At that time, fewer than 13 percent of the U.S. population of 17 million lived in cities with populations greater than 8,000.

Of course, I know you're shooting for context, which is more than fair. That said, the lay person of today might well be confused to see the "big city" of Charleston, S.C. in 1840.

[Gistok]

Because the Detroit River would be completely under Canadian control. It was the major shipping route from Europe to the American interior until mid-20th century. Windsor is just an extension of the economy that created Detroit. Most of those economic conditions would exist no matter where the border was drawn.

Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Lawrence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.

[canuck]

[QUOTE=Gistok;405155]Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Laurence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.[/QUOTE

Yup. Bingo.

[iheartthed]

Wait wait wait... are you talking alternate universe... or the real thing??

Because the St. Lawrence Seaway didn't open up until 1959... so only smaller and midsized ships have been able to traverse the lakes until then... so major shipping actually more or less STARTED in the mid 20th century.

Erie Canal. The major factor contributing to NYC becoming the nation's largest city also directed nearly all of the shipping to the interior US through Detroit.

ETA: I suppose you could argue that building the Erie Canal would've been less attractive if the Detroit River were completely under British control. In that case, Detroit may not have been that big or important, but neither would any of the other major Great Lakes cities. And Philadelphia would probably be the country's largest city right now. The Great Lakes manufacturing prominence over the 20th century would've probably shifted to the river cities: New Orleans, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh. I'll give that to whoever wants to make that argument...

ETA2: But Detroit would've still likely been a large settlement in Canada and probably the largest in Ontario by the turn of the 20th century, so it would've also still benefited from the English/French Canadian conflicts.