State of Michigan has signed a lease for Belle Isle

[jt1]

I think you misunderstood me, jt1. I was referring to crime in relation to race, not differentiating between different types of crime. It was based on the post earlier about safety being a double entendre for racism.

You are correct, I misunderstood. I agree that the numbers are there to support crime as a viable means not to move to the city for many/most. That is, however, the easy reason. Looking beyond Detroit, there is a reason that white people started to flee Southfield and other places. Crime was not a problem in SF however the white population shifted quickly.

There was an article recently [[may have been posted here) where a study showed that once a city reaches, I think, 20% black the white population starts to flee, even if all other factors remain the same.

If crime was solved tomorrow, city income taxes were eliminated and the schools were good, there would not be an influx of white people into the city.

[Wesley Mouch]

Let's be honest, 'safety' is code speak for many. The appearance of safety also can [[and in this backwoods region, usually is) perceived by color as much as anything else.

We've heard the conversations, we've seen people moving to the other side of the street to avoid 'certain people.' To relegate the racists to a small minority is silly and naive. The outright, vocal racists may be the minority but the racists as a whole are a lot more prevalent than you are willing to admit.

Another factor is that the city needs resident. The city needs a stronger tax base. 'Loving' Detroit but living elsewhere is a start, moving to Detroit is where the real change needs to happen.

I understand your paranoia about code words, but that doesn't make you less paranoid, nor does it make anyone interested in safety more racist.

Safety is a compelling desire. Detroit is not safe. I think you'll find plenty of people of all races who agree. Stereotyping and prejudice goes both ways. Neither way is good. Stop it. Your paranoia has very little to do with

[corktownyuppie]

There was an article recently [[may have been posted here) where a study showed that once a city reaches, I think, 20% black the white population starts to flee, even if all other factors remain the same.

If crime was solved tomorrow, city income taxes were eliminated and the schools were good, there would not be an influx of white people into the city.

I don't believe that Detroit will be able to survive without integrating other non-blacks into the city in large numbers. A city whose cost structure was designed for 2 million people can not survive on the approximately 900,000-1 million African Americans who live in the Detroit/Ann Arbor/Flint census area.

And that would presume that the entire Black population in every city in that area were to migrate back into the city.

Which is why we must study the dynamics which are motivating young residents from the burbs to move back into the city. They are the exception to the above rule, and we need to understand what motivates them to violate the general thinking you outlined above.

We also must educate the the entire region that if we want Detroit to stop being a place that we are all ashamed to be associated with, or where 1/3 of the residents are trying to move out, it means that we need to learn to live together.

[dmike76]

I mean, look at Midtown. I think that a big part of the population boom there is that they have their own police force and people feel safer. I will say that I can't totally disagree with you. I probably sound incredibly naive and hopeful and some forum posters roll their eyes at some of the hand-holding kumbaya stuff that I type, but I know that there's still racism. Obviously you and I can't solve the problem by posting on a forum. I'm going to try bucking the trend, though. My wife grew up in VA Beach and that town has some diversity, probably because of the military presence and she's pretty shocked by the segregation here. That's part of the reason she wants to move to Detroit. More diversity.

[bailey]

That's part of the reason she wants to move to Detroit. More diversity.

is city with a 80-85% black population "more diverse" than one with an 80-85% white population?

[dmike76]

Well, I still think Livonia actually may be LESS diverse. I did think of that before I typed that comment. It's not just that though. There are other factors for us both.

[313WX]

is city with a 80-85% black population "more diverse" than one with an 80-85% white population?

Right.

If you're looking for true diversity, you're not going to find it in Detroit. Culture, definitely. But as it stands now [[and what will be the case in the foreseeable future), Detroit is a black, blue-collar city.

[dmike76]

The culture is definitely one of those factors. She loves the old homes [[and I wouldn't mind restoring one).

[corktownyuppie]

is city with a 80-85% black population "more diverse" than one with an 80-85% white population?

If you're looking for true diversity, you're not going to find it in Detroit. Culture, definitely. But as it stands now [[and what will be the case in the foreseeable), Detroit is a black, blue-collar city.

It's all about how you calculate the statistics.

Yes. Detroit might be a black, blue-collar city. But it's unrealistic to think that any of us spend our day-to-day lives in every corner of Detroit. I'd bet that all of us [[not just Detroiters), spend 90% of our time in the same 5-10 places every week.

- Work
- Commute
- Exercise
- Social/Friends
- Errands
- Extracurriculars

So Detroit might be 80, 90, even 95% of one race. But in the 5-10 places I spend my time in the city, I'd say that the racial makeup of the population is closer to 60-40 White. Maybe even 70-30.

But I'd say that the overall tolerance of that group is much more cosmopolitan than the norm here in Metro Detroit. And I'd also say that the variety of backgrounds is far more numerous. Yes, 60-70% might be White, but more and more of them are coming from either out of the state or out of the country. It's a very different kind of vibe than people in Menominee, Michigan.

I'd agree with 313WX and say that Detroit isn't a diverse city. But I'll also say that there are some pretty large pockets within the city, generally revolving around arts, culture, higher ed, etc. where there's a pretty cosmopolitan feel.

Go people watch at Eastern Market on a Saturday. You'll get all kinds.

[dmike76]

Again, well said, yuppie. Oh and Belle Isle. We're so far off topic, I have to mention it. Haha.

[Wesley Mouch]

You are correct, I misunderstood. I agree that the numbers are there to support crime as a viable means not to move to the city for many/most. That is, however, the easy reason. Looking beyond Detroit, there is a reason that white people started to flee Southfield and other places. Crime was not a problem in SF however the white population shifted quickly.

There was an article recently [[may have been posted here) where a study showed that once a city reaches, I think, 20% black the white population starts to flee, even if all other factors remain the same.

If crime was solved tomorrow, city income taxes were eliminated and the schools were good, there would not be an influx of white people into the city.

Causality is not shown in that statement. It would be someone's reflection of what does happen. Not why it happens.

The decision to flee is not trivial, for most. My family did not flee when the neighborhood percentage hit 20% or 75%. They fled when two individuals robbed the house while family was home. It wasn't racism. It was a recognition of a fact that had nothing to do with race.

The supposition that people are sitting at home counting the black families while they read the lily white real estate listings in Howell is an oversimplification.

Having lived through block busting in Detroit, I can tell you that two things drove flight. Neither was race.

1) Home Values. The realtors planted the seed of plummeting home values. It worked.

2) Busing. People didn't want their kids taken to schools that they perceived as unsafe, and were certainly far away. Were they afraid of black kids. Well, yes. But they were more afraid of the impact of poor education and poor safety at inner city schools. They could feel it. And they were mostly right.

Those two items were 90% of the reason for flight. The fact that the new residents were black was an indicator of problems, not the main problem itself.

Side question... did property values plummet? I recall that they did not really fall as the neighborhoods went black. Anyone know?

[Detroitnerd]

Again, well said, yuppie. Oh and Belle Isle. We're so far off topic, I have to mention it. Haha.

Well, you guys are doing pretty well talking about that important issue. All agitprop aside, I do think that an honest and open discussion of race would do more to aid us than any other issue, because -- whether posters to this board want to admit it or not -- a lot of these supposedly dispassionate arguments about numbers and politics pass through the silent screen of race and prejudice. It's certainly no coincidence that the most wealthy and powerful are of a different race than most of the most destitute and powerless.

But, whatever your race or prejudices, remember it's in most people's self-interest to do fight government takeovers. [[And most Michigan voters realized this when they voted down the EM Law.) Because while race is a big [[though quiet) part of this, it's really about class warfare. And unless you're one of the super-rich, once this is done ... you may be next.

[dmike76]

Detroitnerd, you are very right about it being more about economic class than skin color.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroitnerd, you are very right about it being more about economic class than skin color.

I think that the unspoken prejudices attendant on this let some people feel like they're off the hook. There are a whole lot of black folks in Detroit who have more in common with white suburbanites, economically speaking, than many people realize. As the economy gets more and more unequal, maybe it will be the residents of suburban Wayne or Macomb counties who get their democracy taken away.

So don't let's get too full of self-satisfaction about the plight of Detroit just yet. We might have a plate of something less appetizing for dessert!

[corktownyuppie]

As the economy gets more and more unequal, maybe it will be the residents of suburban Wayne or Macomb counties who get their democracy taken away.

Not maybe. Definitely. Royal Oak Township is on the verge of financial emergency. Wayne County is not too far behind.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...xt%7CFRONTPAGE

So don't let's get too full of self-satisfaction about the plight of Detroit just yet. We might have a plate of something less appetizing for dessert!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not "self-satisfied" about Detroit's plight because it gives me carte blanche to hold on to condescending, ignorant beliefs. I'm satisfied about it because it means that people are finally having to become accountable to reality.

Brenda Jones calling the Belle Isle lease, "rape"? C'mon. That's not reality. Reality is when Mike Duggan states that he opposes the lease because the $10-$20MM in capital improvements is not guaranteed by language in the lease.

See the difference? One is just a lot of hot air. The other begs a serious question that is worth discussion.

But to your point, what you call the "loss of democracy", I simply think of us as smaller entities being swallowed by bigger, more financially stable entities. So I don't have any smugness toward the Flint or Highland Park EM. I also wouldn't have any smugness toward a Wayne County or Royal Oak Township EM.

I see EM as a tool to allow an official to make politically unpopular but economically or logically necessary decisions.

[Wesley Mouch]

Well, you guys are doing pretty well talking about that important issue. All agitprop aside, I do think that an honest and open discussion of race would do more to aid us than any other issue, because -- whether posters to this board want to admit it or not -- a lot of these supposedly dispassionate arguments about numbers and politics pass through the silent screen of race and prejudice. It's certainly no coincidence that the most wealthy and powerful are of a different race than most of the most destitute and powerless.

But, whatever your race or prejudices, remember it's in most people's self-interest to do fight government takeovers. [[And most Michigan voters realized this when they voted down the EM Law.) Because while race is a big [[though quiet) part of this, it's really about class warfare. And unless you're one of the super-rich, once this is done ... you may be next.

With you for the most part DN -- except for this thing about government 'takeovers'. Government exists only to serve the people. If one entity isn't doing the job, there has to be a way to correct things before the residents suffer severe harm -- no? In Detroit, people are suffering harm by pathetic police, EMS, and fire coverage. I think when things get bad, its our collective job to establish good governance. To do otherwise puts political self-interest above concern for the individual.

[jt1]

With you for the most part DN -- except for this thing about government 'takeovers'. Government exists only to serve the people. If one entity isn't doing the job, there has to be a way to correct things before the residents suffer severe harm -- no? In Detroit, people are suffering harm by pathetic police, EMS, and fire coverage. I think when things get bad, its our collective job to establish good governance. To do otherwise puts political self-interest above concern for the individual.

I agree but the question should be more around timing and being more pro-active as opposed to waiting for a catastrophe.

The signs were on the wall and there was little, if any assistance from the state. The takeover of DPS resulted in a massive reduction in students, gross financial mismanagement and a reduction in test scores. The EM was a case of 'we aren't going to help until your troubles will impact the state/neighboring communities.'

If there is really a desire to help then let's devise a pro-active approach, not this piecemeal bs takeover after the state contributed to the decimation of DPS [[and royally f'ed up finances and the spending of a massive capital improvement bond), majorly reduced revenue sharing to the city.

The city is certainly mismanaged and to blame but the state has done more harm than good now they want to help because the impacts are going beyond the city borders.

With friends like this, who needs enemies.

[Detroitnerd]

With you for the most part DN -- except for this thing about government 'takeovers'. Government exists only to serve the people. If one entity isn't doing the job, there has to be a way to correct things before the residents suffer severe harm -- no? In Detroit, people are suffering harm by pathetic police, EMS, and fire coverage. I think when things get bad, its our collective job to establish good governance. To do otherwise puts political self-interest above concern for the individual.

For the average person living in Detroit, that's sort of approaching black humor. This is not out of the goodness of Lansing's heart, you know. They wanted an EM there, and abrogated their revenue-sharing agreement to plunge the city into bankruptcy, even rammed through a law rejected by referendum to get it through with sneaky appropriations so it couldn't be voted on again, then appointed Orr before the law took effect specifically to deprive Detroit of having any choice in what happened next. This isn't a ship being rescued so much as a ship being rammed. The facts bear that out.

But even the average Detroiter who hasn't followed the events closely enough to know that has got to know this: Why the fuck everybody so concerned about me all a sudden? That don't make no sense. They come here wanting something, and it isn't the plight of little old me they care about. Detroiters, who've had a hard go of it for decades, are to believe that suddenly everybody in the state has become an altruistic disciple of Jesus and Mao, ready to lend that helping hand? Hahahaha. Oh, man. That's just ... hahahahaha ...

[corktownyuppie]

For the average person living in Detroit, that's sort of approaching black humor. This is not out of the goodness of Lansing's heart, you know. They wanted an EM there, and abrogated their revenue-sharing agreement to plunge the city into bankruptcy, even rammed through a law rejected by referendum to get it through with sneaky appropriations so it couldn't be voted on again, then appointed Orr before the law took effect specifically to deprive Detroit of having any choice in what happened next. This isn't a ship being rescued so much as a ship being rammed. The facts bear that out.

But even the average Detroiter who hasn't followed the events closely enough to know that has got to know this: Why the fuck everybody so concerned about me all a sudden? That don't make no sense. They come here wanting something, and it isn't the plight of little old me they care about. Detroiters, who've had a hard go of it for decades, are to believe that suddenly everybody in the state has become an altruistic disciple of Jesus and Mao, ready to lend that helping hand? Hahahaha. Oh, man. That's just ... hahahahaha ...

The average Detroiter may not have seen it, but if Detroit were allowed to spiral out of control without an Emergency Manager coming in, the whole city would have imploded, and the mess that would be left behind would have been catastrophic to the whole state.

I get that the average Detroiter might not have seen that. In order for them to do so, they would have to understand how all the municipalities in the system are related with each other. They would have to understand how the image of Detroit affects a Fortune 500 headhunter trying to recruit engineers from California to move to Troy.

Of course the average Detroiter doesn't get it. In fairness, I'd argue that average Michigander doesn't get it, either. This is high-level stuff that isn't always apparent or concrete enough to easily explain.

But rather than question outsiders' motives, let's question their results. When it came to the DIA, Cobo Hall, Eastern Market, Campus Martius, the Riverfront...the results were positive. When it came to DPS, not so much...at least not yet.

At some point, it doesn't matter WHY Lansing is doing anything. What matters is how it will affect us all. If what they do with Belle Isle is anything like they did with Milliken State Park, I think we're stupid not to let them.

[jt1]

At some point, it doesn't matter WHY Lansing is doing anything. What matters is how it will affect us all. If what they do with Belle Isle is anything like they did with Milliken State Park, I think we're stupid not to let them.

I'm on board with that as long as Lansing quits trying to make it like they are saving the city for purely altruistic means. If they come out and say, "We are doing this because not doing so would hurt the state and business in the state" then I would be fine with it.

I just don't care to hear how 'they' are saving 'us'

[Detroitnerd]

The average Detroiter may not have seen it, but if Detroit were allowed to spiral out of control without an Emergency Manager coming in, the whole city would have imploded, and the mess that would be left behind would have been catastrophic to the whole state.

You don't understand. It is the powers that be in Lansing that are responsible for plunging the city into bankruptcy. Things are bad for Detroit, yes, but at least it had its democracy intact. Lansing was the one who broke its agreements with the city and created the need for an EM, indeed disregarded the vote of the people of the whole state and passed the law again.

If you'd like to disregard the facts, then say people are out of touch when they bring them up, I don't know what to tell you ...

[Det_ard]

But, whatever your race or prejudices, remember it's in most people's self-interest to do fight government takeovers.

Actually it's in most people's self interest to support emergency managers like Orr coming in to correct decades of mismanagement and incompetence. Most Detroiters wanted the cavalry to finally come to the rescue. It had taken too long already. Only a few like DN choose to overlook the plight of the citizens who have to suffer under the burden of mismanagement, ineptitude and corruption in favor of promoting a red herring of "class warfare".

Those who really care about what happens to the average person support the EM approach because it creates a better city for the citizens. Those who'd leave Detroiters in the incapable hands of the current council are cruel and uncaring.

What really ought to concern folks is what will happen once the EM leaves. If Watson and friends are left to run things again most of what's gained will be lost again.

[Detroitnerd]

Actually it's in most people's self interest to support emergency managers like Orr coming in to correct decades of mismanagement and incompetence. Most Detroiters wanted the cavalry to finally come to the rescue. It had taken too long already. Only a few like DN choose to overlook the plight of the citizens who have to suffer under the burden of mismanagement, ineptitude and corruption in favor of promoting a red herring of "class warfare".

Um, the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. What the fuck are you talking about? I'm overlooking my own plight?

[Kevgoblue]

But rather than question outsiders' motives, let's question their results. When it came to the DIA, Cobo Hall, Eastern Market, Campus Martius, the Riverfront...the results were positive. When it came to DPS, not so much...at least not yet.

At some point, it doesn't matter WHY Lansing is doing anything. What matters is how it will affect us all. If what they do with Belle Isle is anything like they did with Milliken State Park, I think we're stupid not to let them.

[[As a whole) who uses the DIA, Cobo Hall, Eastern Market and Campus Martius?
[[As a whole) who uses DPS?

[Det_ard]

Um, the whole time I was arguing against this ... as a Detroiter. What the fuck are you talking about? I'm overlooking my own plight?

No, you display callous disregard for others' plight. You have your own "fight the man" issues bouncing around in your head that conflict with what's best for everyone else.