Welfare to Work [[FOR REAL)

[Danny]

There is a proposal in Lansing to get folks on welfare back to work doing community service in order to keep their benefits. Is this plan would work them to lower the poverty rate in Michigan [[including Detroit)? Is it a republican plot to get the poor back to some kind of 'PICKING A BALE A COTTON' economic slavery?

Any thoughts?

[Wesley Mouch]

There is a proposal in Lansing to get folks on welfare back to work doing community service in order to keep their benefits. Is this plan would work them to lower the poverty rate in Michigan [[including Detroit)? Is it a republican plot to get the poor back to some kind of 'PICKING A BALE A COTTON' economic slavery?

Any thoughts?

Question first, please.

Can you explain how community service is at all like economic slavery?

[sumas]

Personally, I think it's stupid. Why make a person who does not give a shit donate time, if there is no caring, the work has no value.

My husband and I have scaled back big time on volunteer work, we care so much but health considerations are a factor. It's serious, we care for community and feel we owe something back. I guess we are entitlement folk now as we live on my husbands SSI. We do ok.

I think I would be pissed if someone said do community service, mandatory.

We sit on the board of our block club, our street association. active in Detroit Eviction Defense, founding members of a local Historical 501c3 society, Villages of Detroit, Creekside CDC, Warren Conner CDC, economic outreach through our church, JEBA and that's only naming a few.

Not embarrassed to say that we have also been the beneficiary of public and private programs. Most recent, I had a colonoscopy, [[sp) I have no health care and this procedure was done through DRs Who Care and grant monies from St John Health Care System.

I get, I give. It's just not something you can force on people. You feel it or you don't.

[Danny]

Question first, please.

Can you explain how community service is at all like economic slavery?

Tell that to a black single mother from Flint, MI. who was on welfare that forced her to go to work to Dick Clark's American Bandstand Restaurant in Great Lakes Crossing Mall for pennies. While in the meantime her son took his uncle's gun to school and kill a little girl.

[Zacha341]

D. going forth don't believe this type of thing is to be required by the repubs only. Recall the welfare reform under Clinton - a dem. While we usually associate the repubs for taking away entitlements in the future we're gonna see drastic 'change' under dems. The partisan aspect is mostly inspired to keep voting segment loyal... even that will not be expedient onward.

Now how do you really force someone to comply to community service with a 'smile' [[true motivation) after years of generational welfare that required little engagement or reciprocity? Also, I can see some abuse from employers who have issues with managing and treating their 'paid' staff. More paperwork and bureaucracy to come with this particular reform.

There is a proposal in Lansing to get folks on welfare back to work doing community service in order to keep their benefits. Is this plan would work them to lower the poverty rate in Michigan [[including Detroit)? Is it a republican plot to get the poor back to some kind of 'PICKING A BALE A COTTON' economic slavery?

Any thoughts?

[313WX]

I'm certainly in favor of a program like that, but it should be optional and in addition to welfare. It should target the unemployed people who don't qualify for welfare [[in lieu of unemployment benefits), or who's welfare limit has been reached [[similar to the WPA).

As typical, Michigan gets it close but just misses the mark.

[getmoore]

I think its a great idea. Too many people living here with entitlement issues. I think everyone should earn what they receive.For some it may be the first step toward getting a job. I just wonder how they'll handle childcare?

[JohnnyFreddy]

I think its a great idea. Too many people living here with entitlement issues. I think everyone should earn what they receive.For some it may be the first step toward getting a job. I just wonder how they'll handle childcare?

Problem is, my friend, where are all these jobs your type keep preaching about...and what is the pay? Just because President Obama has gotten SOME healthcare reform passed [[which, by the way THEY want it revoked/defunded)....doesn't mean it actually covers the poor, because it doesn't, not enough anyway. A lot of these welfare recipients are collecting welfare MOSTLY because they have children and guess what...children need medical attention....mothers/pregnant women need medical attention. The multitude of jobs your ilk are touting...are minimum wage jobs, which doesn't even come close to a living wage....PLUS have to pay their own doctor bills...PLUS these employers are not 'required' to hire them 'full time', therefore aren't compelled to work them full time, meaning they don't even qualify for benefits. Give the poor, the uneducated, the 'foolish when they were young and made some bad decisions' [[ever make a coupla bad decisions when you were young?).....people....give them a chance at life. How about raising the minimum wage to $10.00hr.???? Would THAT work for you???? NO, you all don't want that either. So would ANYTHING work for you, or is it really just, "Do our dirty work, don't get paid shit, SHUT THE F@#K UP !!!!".....or just DIE? Fortunately, there are enough truly righteous folk out there to continue to assist those still unfortunate citizens. Yes, change the system, so those without children, able to work, are required to work...get them off their asses, withhold housing benefits from them, but require them to work. This community service idea is stupid, will not work, and is a waste of time and money.

[Lowell]

Sooo.... does this mean Mike Ilitch will have to pick up trash on expressways if his new hockey arena gets public funding?

[getmoore]

Sooo.... does this mean Mike Ilitch will have to pick up trash on expressways if his new hockey arena gets public funding?

Ha! Good one!

[JohnnyFreddy]

Ha! Good one!

....yes, definitely appreciated and laughed my ass off over the Illitch comparison/observation....requirement??? HELL YES !!! But people won't see THAT similarily....no way.

[canuck]

Sooo.... does this mean Mike Ilitch will have to pick up trash on expressways if his new hockey arena gets public funding?

No, worse than that Lowell, they will have him plant a gold-plated shovel in some soft packed earth on day one.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is forced indentured servitude, plain and simple. The GOP, from it's high moral perch, gets to pass judgment on who is "deserving". Then force the underserving "lazy" bastards into the system of cheap and free labor they've been recreating since the days of St. Ronald of Simi Valley. They're not going to be happy until we're all toiling away on their plantations.

Several Southern states, including Georgia and I believe South Carolina, have tried to muster similar ideas, tying "volunteer" hours to unemployment benefits. The problem is, all of the time spent "volunteering" is not being spent brushing up the resume, looking for a job, furthering education, developing skills, conducting interviews, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and these GOP bastards know it.

Then they'll go an tell you how they dislike "big government". What a crock.

[bailey]

Several Southern states, including Georgia and I believe South Carolina, have tried to muster similar ideas, tying "volunteer" hours to unemployment benefits. The problem is, all of the time spent "volunteering" is not being spent brushing up the resume, looking for a job, furthering education, developing skills, conducting interviews, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and these GOP bastards know it.

While I agree in theory, I've watched up close with some family and friends exhibit what is a very very common behavior. No one gets really serious about getting a job until the clock almost runs out. Its not just hard right wingers saying this, IIRC its borne out in studies. Suddenly people start getting jobs right as the checks are about to stop.

As to the work requirement for benefits.... if work needs to be done, how about just hiring them to do the freaking work?

I mean how about just cutting out the middle man?

Then they could revise the formula so that working at a minimum wage temp job gets you on a sliding scale for benefits instead of cut off completely.

Of course none of this actually addresses the problems of getting the terminally unemployed a job.

[Goose]

This is forced indentured servitude, plain and simple.

only if you overlook the fact that no one is "forced" to accept welfare...

now if you talk about income tax, that would be forced indentured servitude...

[Danny]

This is forced indentured servitude, plain and simple. The GOP, from it's high moral perch, gets to pass judgment on who is "deserving". Then force the underserving "lazy" bastards into the system of cheap and free labor they've been recreating since the days of St. Ronald of Simi Valley. They're not going to be happy until we're all toiling away on their plantations.

Several Southern states, including Georgia and I believe South Carolina, have tried to muster similar ideas, tying "volunteer" hours to unemployment benefits. The problem is, all of the time spent "volunteering" is not being spent brushing up the resume, looking for a job, furthering education, developing skills, conducting interviews, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and these GOP bastards know it.

Then they'll go an tell you how they dislike "big government". What a crock.

Tell that to the rich and middle class folks when they work harder, smarter and pay their taxes. Those on welfare and food stamps need to work, too.

[Lily]

This is forced indentured servitude, plain and simple. The GOP, from it's high moral perch, gets to pass judgment on who is "deserving". Then force the underserving "lazy" bastards into the system of cheap and free labor they've been recreating since the days of St. Ronald of Simi Valley. They're not going to be happy until we're all toiling away on their plantations.

Several Southern states, including Georgia and I believe South Carolina, have tried to muster similar ideas, tying "volunteer" hours to unemployment benefits. The problem is, all of the time spent "volunteering" is not being spent brushing up the resume, looking for a job, furthering education, developing skills, conducting interviews, etc. It's a vicious cycle, and these GOP bastards know it.

Then they'll go an tell you how they dislike "big government". What a crock.

Forced endentured servitude NOT. Yes there would be some who could not, others who would not, but i can not believe that everyone would say no. We have to help ourselves, help our cities. There are many things people could do from cleaning up trash on sidewalks and sides of roads, to helping feed folks at homeless shelters...and on and on. Not saying they should volunteer to help 40 hours a week, just pitch in a little here and there. Is that really too much for the welfare providers to ask for? Just a little help.

[ghettopalmetto]

Forced endentured servitude NOT. Yes there would be some who could not, others who would not, but i can not believe that everyone would say no. We have to help ourselves, help our cities. There are many things people could do from cleaning up trash on sidewalks and sides of roads, to helping feed folks at homeless shelters...and on and on. Not saying they should volunteer to help 40 hours a week, just pitch in a little here and there. Is that really too much for the welfare providers to ask for? Just a little help.

No, I do not agree with unconditional "transfer payments". There should be means testing. I believe this is already a non-issue, though.

I don't look at things like Welfare as cash handouts like some of you, though. I look at them as subsidized rent, EBT cards for groceries, bus passes. We all deserve clean water to drink, food to eat, a place to sleep, clothes on our backs, education, and health care. REGARDLESS of your employment status. REGARDLESS of your income. These are the elementary basics of any civilization, not to mention the basis of every major religion and moral belief system on the face of the earth. In other words, if we can't provide these things for everyone, then what *can* we do correct?

Now, a majority [[some data says two-thirds) of welfare recipients are children, the elderly, and the disabled. If you think you can press this population into forced labor, best of luck.

Now, let's get adult about this issue, shall we? This petulant holier-than-thou dicking around is just providing cover for the plantation owners who have you engaged in class warfare against your own class.

[sumas]

Ghettopalmetto, in many ways, you express a voice of reason that I can agree with. The lack of empathy for those in need is almost astounding. There is little understanding of the dynamics of poverty or how people got there.

I could do a whole dissertation on this issue and still not touch on all key points.

I live in a relatively poor,aging, but proud community. The amount of caring and sharing is just astounding. Of course we have our problems, drugs etc. Mostly everyone is charming and courteous. Most if not all residents are home owners. Many are in danger of losing homes, mostly tax issues. We raise money, save neighbors. Most get some form of assistance. The tea party will never understand us, just like we don't understand them.

[Johnnny5]

I have not read the latest proposal, but I'm 100% in support of some type of mandatory community service or job training for those wishing to collect welfare or unemployment benefits for an extended period of time. While the majority of people collecting these benefits both need and deserve them there is a sizable percentage of people abusing these benefits. Requiring a small amount of effort to keep them would go a long way in reducing the number of people that are illegally working under the table, but still collecting and those that just prefer to live off a handout instead of putting in the effort.

[ghettopalmetto]

While the majority of people collecting these benefits both need and deserve them there is a sizable percentage of people abusing these benefits.

What constitutes a "sizable" percentage? 1 percent? 2 percent?

You're going to sell the entire safety-net-needing populace into slavery because you have a grudge against a couple bad apples?

[trotwood]

I'm a bit confused by this latest proposal. What of those who are disabled[[physically or mentally)who can't medically work yet receive some sort of assistance? Are those people forced to do 'community service' in order to continue eating?

[Johnnny5]

What constitutes a "sizable" percentage? 1 percent? 2 percent?

You're going to sell the entire safety-net-needing populace into slavery because you have a grudge against a couple bad apples?

Sorry, but the slavery comparison is pathetic and borderline offensive. . I'm not sure that "grudge" is a good term to use, but I sure as heck am upset with people who abuse the system at the expense of those of us that actually need it and those of us paying for it. Whether it's the party store owners scam paying 50 cents on the dollar for EBT benefits, the guy working a business for cash and still collecting unemployment or the lotto winner still using her EBT card. I think they are all scumbags! And seriously if you think it's only 1-2% of the recipients that are abusing these benefits you are living in a dream world. And those are just the people committing actual fraud. There's also the inherent lack of motivation that comes along with receiving a check without any effort. People become accustomed to that lifestyle and the longer they live it, the more dependent they become. Anything that could help break that cycle, but still offers benefits to those that truly need them is a win/win in my book.

[canuck]

I think that governement agencies tied to welfare should favor breaking isolation first. Back to work programs are needed, but for a certain percentage of folks, basic skills in home economics, like buying fresh foods and cooking in groups to encourage better habits are what they should be shooting for.

If you put groups of people togteher in community halls, have them prepare food for their families, check out Eastern Market for how-to's on what to buy, this not only brings skills out, but breaks the isolation.

Humans are funny animals in that they will imitate what they perceive to be a superior influence. You can substitute a party monster neighbor with a confident well-spoken instructor in home ecs. I think it is not a bad thing to bring let's say a young single mother out of isolation. Plenty of people in Detroit grow their own vegetables in community gardens, let's just think of extending this favorable incentive by giving instruction in return for money. Not a bad deal.

[professorscott]

One of the problems nobody has mentioned here is that if you are receiving any kind of government assistance, you are heavily economically disincentivized from trying to find work.

It would be different if there were sufficient good-paying jobs, but there aren't. I read a great study, can't remember where, that the average person who is not working and is receiving government assistance [[unemployment, food stamps, whatever), if they do take any work, the benefits they lose amount to 95% of the net pay for the job they have. So now you have to leave the house, get to work somehow [[which undoubtedly more than eats up the remaining 5%), and at the end of the day you aren't any better off at all.

There's an easy solution to this, but I suspect it's a political nonstarter. As people transition back into the work force, scale back their benefits proportionally, depending on their pay and hours, so that they are actually better off working than not working. Of course this means some working people would still be receiving some amount of assistance, so like I said, it has no legs politically. But I can't think of any nonpolitical reason that it wouldn't work.

If it was possible to go out and find a full time $25 per hour job with benefits, this problem would go away on its own... but it's not possible for most people, and it's not going to be possible any time soon.