Schostak Bros. plans $111M 16-story office building downtown Detroit office tower

[313WX]

Skepticism is healthy in these parts. Packard, that gigantic Cadillac Square [[Cadillac Place?) development, everything to ever do with the riverfront between Chene and RenCen, etc. I think its a legit worry to have, that this development will not pan out in the best interest of the city. I'm still excited, but I think we need to discuss what would be best.

Last I checked, Detroit wasn't in a position to nitpick what type of investment it gets.

As another person said, it's better than a surface lot. And the fact that this development will be launched by the historically suburban Schostak Bros. makes it an even bigger deal.

[313WX]

Agreed. Seems like everything that's being put up is in the 12-16 story range. It'd be nice to see something 30-40 stories put up, possibly mixed use. Is there some sort of invisible line at this range where it becomes much more cost prohibitive to build any taller than that?

Once Detroit has the demand for 30-40 story towers, it'll start seeing them.

[motz]

Last I checked, Detroit wasn't in a position to nitpick what type of investment it gets.

As another person said, it's better than a surface lot. And the fact that this development will be launched by the historically suburban Schostak Bros. makes it an even bigger deal.

Do the Schostak Bros. have their funding lined up, and everything ready to go? According to this press release, it is a plan with no design confirmed, no tenants announced, no funding announced. I am saying, its totally reasonable to be skeptical and nitpick the announcement until its 100% confirmed. Hell, they don't even have the land yet.

Once it is confirmed? Yeah, I 110% agree with you and think we should support it, we can't nitpick. But until everything pans out, I view this as the new Packard.

[rbdetsport]

Last I checked, Detroit wasn't in a position to nitpick what type of investment it gets.

As another person said, it's better than a surface lot. And the fact that this development will be launched by the historically suburban Schostak Bros. makes it an even bigger deal.

The fact that they are historically suburban is what worries me the most.. Cheap materials, plain architecture, mediocre amenities, etc...

[DetroitPlanner]

The fact that they are historically suburban is what worries me the most.. Cheap materials, plain architecture, mediocre amenities, etc...

Divisive attitudes will get you nowhere.

This is a Schostak development: http://www.loftsofmerchantsrow.com/

As is this nice mixed use property: http://www.schostak.com/documents/20...age-052013.pdf

[rbdetsport]

Divisive attitudes will get you nowhere.

This is a Schostak development: http://www.loftsofmerchantsrow.com/

As is this nice mixed use property: http://www.schostak.com/documents/20...age-052013.pdf

Point proven.. haha. I am glad to see that. I just really hope they make the parking garage as least obvious as possible..

[Zug]

Greektown Casino's hotel is technically 30 stories.

But regardless, I actually think it's fine to have a 16 story office building at that site. It would be nice to have another true skyscraper...but unless there's a single company looking for a new skyscraper, it will likely do nothing but create a higher office vacancy rate. It would be nice if new residential could be built downtown...but there may be factors I don't know preventing it from happening.

Also, that is a huge lot there now. It would not surprise me if a regular looking parking structure is adjacent to the office building portion. And not a huge 16 story building with 5-6 floors of parking.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I'm going to take an unusual approach and not condemn the project before seeing a rendering of it. I already know what the parking lot looks like, and I'm not a real fan of that.

[stinkytofu]

schostak going public with this announcement typically means they're fishing for tenants to meet leasing requirements to gain financing [[office requires 80+% leased prior to financing)...depending on development incentives. i am surprised their public announcement didn't come with a major tenant announcement and building rendering.

Eh, not too surprising. Since there is a public hearing on Thursday that is what likely prompted the revelation from reporters, whether the developers wanted it announced yet or not. Sounds like this is in the early stages.

[Scottathew]

I'd rather see a 16 story building in the core of the CBD than a mega-campus pop up somewhere else in the city.

I'm excited, I hope this comes to fruition.

[1953]

That link you posted for Pointe Plaza says it is in Grosse Pointe Woods, but isn't it [[at least the part pictured) in Detroit city limits?

1953

[DetroitPlanner]

Washington DC has no skyscrapers but the center of the City is very lively. You don't need skyscrapers to have vitality.

Lets work on getting people here and filling what we have, then filling in gaps. No need to have tall buildings. Use empty spaces for parks or smaller developments. Well thought out parks will be an attractive amenity, Campus Martius and the Riverwalk have proven this.

[DetroitPlanner]

That link you posted for Pointe Plaza says it is in Grosse Pointe Woods, but isn't it [[at least the part pictured) in Detroit city limits?

1953

I think most of it is in Detroit, but you have to remember it is easier to market a mall in Grosse Pointe than it is in a Detroit Neighborhood.

[Gorath]

Agreed. Seems like everything that's being put up is in the 12-16 story range. It'd be nice to see something 30-40 stories put up, possibly mixed use. Is there some sort of invisible line at this range where it becomes much more cost prohibitive to build any taller than that?

Not sure how much a role this plays, but once you reach a certain height you need to upgrade to a more expensive elevator system to reach higher heights. At least it used to be the case, don't know if it is anymore since cheap hydraulic elevators have fallen out of favor in new construction.

Hydraulic elevators could only go so high. If you wanted to go higher you needed to use a much more costly traction elevator.

Hydraulic elevators in new low rise buildings have now been replaced by Machine Room Less [[MRL) traction elevators. These smaller traction elevators don't require the penthouse that the bigger traction elevators do as the motor is small enough to fit inside the elevator shaft. And they don't need a "machine room" that the hydraulic elevators do hence the name. They cost a little more to install then hydraulic, but the operating costs are less. Not to mention environmental considerations. But just like hydraulic, MRL's can only go so high.

[jt1]

Paris would suck if it weren't for all those 30-40 story skyscrapers. A city can't be any good unless the buildings are really, really tall.

[rjlj]

You are correct, Paris sucks because it does not have skyscrapers. The city is really suffering because of all those short buildings and density.

Paris would suck if it weren't for all those 30-40 story skyscrapers. A city can't be any good unless the buildings are really, really tall.

[Gistok]

I think most of it is in Detroit, but you have to remember it is easier to market a mall in Grosse Pointe than it is in a Detroit Neighborhood.

Correct... the mall is in Detroit. The Barnes & Noble Store is the eastern border of Detroit. Across that side drive [[with the 5 story building) is Grosse Pointe Woods.

What one has to remember is that all points east of Canyon St. [[eastern border of Balduck Park) are in the 48236 Zip Code... which means those few streets between Pointe Plaza [[and St. John Hospital & Medical Center) and Canyon St. are all city of Detroit locations with a Grosse Pointe mailing address.

All points east of Kingsville St. [[which would be the drive going alongside Barnes & Noble) are GPW or Harper Woods.

[Gistok]

Actually Paris does have a downtown.... but it's not within the historic 20 Arrondisments [[neighborhoods) of Paris. If you took the Champs Elysees east, went past the Arc de Triomphe and straight thru on the Boulevard of the Grand Army of the Republic... you would come to Paris's "downtown" on the eastern edge... known as La Defense...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=531

With the square arch "La Grand Arche" framing the view from the Arc de Triomphe.

Paris learned from the mistakes of London and Frankfurt... and decided NOT to ruin the historic city center with tall skyscrapers... but of course... WWII made it easier for London and Frankfurt to build anew in the city center, while Paris remained intact.

[gthomas]

Washington DC has no skyscrapers but the center of the City is very lively. You don't need skyscrapers to have vitality.

Lets work on getting people here and filling what we have, then filling in gaps. No need to have tall buildings. Use empty spaces for parks or smaller developments. Well thought out parks will be an attractive amenity, Campus Martius and the Riverwalk have proven this.

I understand what you're saying, we don't need tall skyscrapers to have a successful thriving city. But, in Detroit sense..density is key to quickly get stable in this market. Have you notice the population lost lately, but notice how downtown and midtown districts are at 97% occupied, as far as residential living. In desperate needs of new construction, its not coming fast enough...need more options to choose from. We've been doing these "5-15" story building for awhile now, they are being filled and doing well. Broderick Tower is a great example that we can support more 30+ story residential development downtown and fill quickly, the demand is clearly there for more 30+, even 60+ skyscrapers that Detroit can support.

We need to quickly bring people in, the demand is growing faster than development. Some folks are not willing to wait 10 years for too long, next city please. We need to keep and retain as many people we need, building up is a quick way to create density without using a "campus" style footprint. Most young, educated professional love high-rise living with views over something 5 story buildings with no views. We need to move up...go BIG or go HOME, break from the norm. Booorrrinnnggg

[gthomas]

I actually like this design that was proposed back in 2009, very unique. This design was "out-the-box" and a catalyst to new innovative development Detroit ever seen, set a standard like Gilbert is successfully doing.

[DetroitPlanner]

Actually Paris does have a downtown.... but it's not within the historic 20 Arrondisments [[neighborhoods) of Paris. If you took the Champs Elysees east, went past the Arc de Triomphe and straight thru on the Boulevard of the Grand Army of the Republic... you would come to Paris's "downtown" on the eastern edge... known as La Defense...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=531

With the square arch "La Grand Arche" framing the view from the Arc de Triomphe.

First pic I've seen of La Defense in a long time. Its gotten uglier. I thought la Centre Pompidou pretty much sealed the fate of anything modern in the old parts of Paris.

[gthomas]

Agreed. Seems like everything that's being put up is in the 12-16 story range. It'd be nice to see something 30-40 stories put up, possibly mixed use. Is there some sort of invisible line at this range where it becomes much more cost prohibitive to build any taller than that?

Like "The majestic tower" in Dubai , this is what I'll like to see one day in Detroit.

[wolverine]

Count the number of cars there now, cut it in half to account for space used up by any set-back, ramps, turning radii, poles, stairwells, and elavators and divide it into 1,000. That should give you an approximation of how many floors of parking you would need. I don't have time to count those cars!

In Detroit's case we can either build new offices or lofts or renovate the existing ones. Which would you rather see? More office space chasing after the same tenants or higher occupancies in the old historic buildings?

Been awhile since i planned a garage layout but it looks like it would require 3 floors if you plunked a perfect rectangle inside that irregular geometry...a worst case scenario. More creatively they could fit more. I think your formula is kind of a supersize situation for garages.

Also the column grid for garages doesn't play nicely with offices stacked on top which leads me to believe they'll isolate the garage from the office or maybe even place it underground

What is the occupancy of class A space though? It seems like those buildings were first to fill up on the recent influx of jobs. And while the Dime and Penobscot have plenty of space, they are vintage and would require pricey buildouts to work for large companies. I know there's also some space on the fringes, but if you are in the real estate market, it's not typically about being charitable [[or rational from a larger planning standpoint) to a adopt and retrofit older buildings to attempt to attract class A tenants. Some buildings are just hardwired for small offices that will yield low rents. They are in this to make money. They see the demand for larger firms and their ability to occupy a whole floor that's not irregular like you find in older buildings with lots of "monuments" in the floorplan that can't be moved.

My only concern is scale. Height I really don't care about, but Detroit would benefit from more fine grain architecture. By fine grain, think the old commercial buildings on Woodward or Greektown. When it comes to cities, the busiest streets are also the most architecturally chaotic. Yet skyscraper districts regardless of their employee counts and ground floor restaurants still look sterile. The footprint is kind of a monster, so hopefully it's broken up a bit. I actually liked that previous proposal shown with the wacky design. It had a lively spirit to it which is in tune to some of Detroit's most decadent Art Deco buildings.

[gnome]

Can anyone point to something Schostak Bros have built that is the least bit interesting? Anything where they worked with a well-known design team?

i know they do malls and glass-walled office boxes, but if anyone thinks these guys are going to break any rules, or create anything interesting, is mistaken I fear.

I would suspect you are going to get something like the Ernst and Young building, or something with that foam stucco stuff glued on like they have done on countless suburban shopping centers.

i know it sounds like I am being Negative Ned, but Schostak just doesn't seem like landmark builders and designers.

[WPitonya]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...=189130&page=5

I would definitely prefer mixed-use here, but if they insist on building an office building, I would prefer something like 51 Astor Place in NYC. The highly reflective glass would reflect the First National building and the Campus Martius fountain beautifully!! Also, I believe the scale would be great here; put the parking garage in the back along Farmer and Bates Street.