If you were 22-26 yo, would you move to Detroit RIGHT NOW? Why?

48009 · September-12-13, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

48009.... you are absolutely full of complete and utter BULLSHIT... there are not HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of 20 something Michiganians that moved away to Chicagoland... I DARE you to show statistics to back up that BS...

From 2005-2009 the outmigration OF ALL AGES from Michigan to Illinois was 11,150 per the US Census. Nice try though.

I thought you were college educated? Don't college educated people use facts and statistics, rather than hyperbole??

Cite your source.

**Gistok** · September-12-13, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by 48009

Cite your source.

Thanks Noise...

My source is not Hyperbole... it's the US Census Statistics...

Check the 2005-2009 listing... of Geographical Mobility/Migration...

http://www.census.gov/hhes/migration...-to-state.html

**illwill** · September-12-13, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by 48009

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...f-the-Midwest/

Maybe you should hop on a plane to ORD and ask some of the hundreds of thousands of Michigan college graduates why they moved there? Then when you get back you should stop in Corktown and ask the 74 dudes there why they didn't? Let us know.

I suggest everyone read the comments from the article posted in Chicago Magazine, all of which are honest assessments of born and raised Chicagoan's. None of them seem to be too happy with the past and current state of their home city. Especially speaking from the inside/out. Chicago has lots of problems but I commend the native Chicagoan's for not sugar-coating or falsely hyping-up their city like many of us do. I think most of the Chicago hype is coming from out of state transplants...especially Michigan transplants [[the author).

**noise** · September-12-13, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by 48009

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...f-the-Midwest/

Maybe you should hop on a plane to ORD and ask some of the hundreds of thousands of Michigan college graduates why they moved there? Then when you get back you should stop in Corktown and ask the 74 dudes there why they didn't? Let us know.

I would prefer it if the illiterate black female grad student would try to back up her "arguments".

**Pickford-Bentler** · September-13-13, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by noise

I would prefer it if the illiterate black female grad student would try to back up her "arguments".

It would also be nice to see her become friends with colons, semi-colons and commas.

**runnerXT** · September-12-13, 05:27 PM

^nothing except its more expensive and dull

**313WX** · September-12-13, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by noise

If I were 22-26, what specifically would Chicago offer me that Detroit doesn't, granted I had a job in either city?

A few things that immediately come to mind:

*Reliable Mass Transit
*Walkability/Critical Mass
*Abundance of National Retailers
*Premier Downtown Shopping
*Functional City Government
*Women's Basketball Team
*Navy Pier
*Legit State Fair

**dtowncitylover** · September-12-13, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

A few things that immediately come to mind:

*Reliable Mass Transit
*Walkability/Critical Mass
*Abundance of National Retailers
*Premier Downtown Shopping
*Functional City Government
*Women's Basketball Team
*Navy Pier
*Legit State Fair

*Reliable Mass Transit- a need, yes.
*Walkability/Critical Mass- a need, yes.
*Abundance of National Retailers- we have 90% of retailers Chicago does. Anything else I can buy online.
*Premier Downtown Shopping- a need, yes.
*Functional City Government- a need, yes. Though Chicago politics is very dirty, just a well-oiled machine keeps it under wraps as much as possible
*Women's Basketball Team- don't need it to survive
*Navy Pier- don't need to survive; have Riverfront/Belle Isle
*Legit State Fair- don't need to survive.

**313WX** · September-12-13, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

*Abundance of National Retailers- we have 90% of retailers Chicago does. Anything else I can buy online.

I thought we were just comparing Chicago proper vs. Detroit proper?

48009 · September-12-13, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I thought we were just comparing Chicago proper vs. Detroit proper?

Dude stop arguing with the delusional. And if you want to compare cities, you can't compare Detroit with a world class city. At least give it a puncher's chance by comparing it to Cleveland or St Louis or Minneapolis?

**michimoby** · September-12-13, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

A few things that immediately come to mind:

*Functional City Government

...welllll....sorta.

**313WX** · September-12-13, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by michimoby

...welllll....sorta.

Well, I don't hear too many people in Chicago complaining about trash not being picked up, the police/fire trucks/ambulance not coming, the streetlights not coming on, crumbling infrastructure or widespread blight problems.

Even on the Southside, the government at least marginally works for them.

48009 · September-12-13, 06:52 PM

Assuming this article will get lost in my other thread, so making a thread for it. This is a must read for anyone who cares about Detroit's revival. A little long, but a fantastic read. I look forward to the discussion it sparks.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...ticle=0#artanc

Chicago has effectively become the capital of the American Midwest--at the expense of the rest of the Midwest.

**Gistok** · September-12-13, 07:41 PM

Oh... well this is written by a Chicagoan... well there's an unbiased opinion....

Let's see what else Chicago has to offer...

http://www.hiphopweekly.com/2013/06/...s-yes-you-can/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...=chicago-crime

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...=chicago-crime

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...tml?ref=topbar

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...tml?ref=topbar

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...=chicago-crime

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime...-Illinois.html

Gee, like Detroit, you can meet some very smart... and some not so very smart people in Chicago.

It's funny how Google is your friend... when you try to make a very specific point... it's amazing how you can find almost ANYTHING to back up your POV....

**Huggybear** · September-12-13, 08:54 PM

This paean to Chicago, penned for a Chicago publication, reads like something that should appear in one of those tourist magazines that litter hotel end tables. Except that it talks about segregation [[religious, ethnic and racial) almost in glowing terms.

Frankly, this article did not disabuse me of the idea that Chicago extinguished its diversity - and indeed, its cultural identity - by trying to be the popular kid. It has a decent economy, its downtown is a safe place for white people to live in, it's "not Detroit," and it's a destination for the youth diaspora of the middle west. So why isn't it some kind of slam dunk?

The simple answer, I think, is that Chicago is mediocre in the true sense of the word. It's not bad or shoddy or ugly. In fact, it looks nice and functions well. But it's not the worst or best at anything. It doesn't have the dominance of New York or the plastic hotties of Los Angeles. Chicago's post-Al-Capone history is uneventful. People outside of Chicago don't really talk about it. It's a safe place to go. It is a good place to live in a gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat. Until you move to Schaumberg or Palatine. In which case you have met your Waterloo.

Despite being smaller and taking a few punches in the gut, Detroit hits far above its weight in history and culture. Its fortunes have risen and fallen faster than anywhere on earth. It popularized the automobile and by doing so, it effectively terraformed the entire developed world - after it built the hardware to wipe out the bag guys. Detroit is a place people do talk about - in mythical terms: it is Henry Ford, Robocop, the Arsenal of Democracy, the riots, Eminem and the Virgin Suicides. Magazines have "Detroit" ad offices. They don't have "Chicago" offices; they have "Midwest" ones. Detroit hits far above its weight in the minds of Americans, whether morality play, gritty human drama, or awesome wasteland.* Mythology breeds a common cultural identity, and that breeds attachment and fierce loyalty.

The lack of this social-historic heft is precisely why people from Chicago are insecure - many being from West Michigan, they think that because they are prosperous, they must be blessed, and if they are among the elect, g-ddammit, why isn't their city the center of admiration?

When it comes down to it, telling people who live in Detroit by choice that they should like Chicago is a silly exercise. Detroit's appeal lies in its challenge and inspiration to do big things. If that set wanted to live in Chicago and blend into a pool of people of similar socioeconomic station, it would have done so.

HB

* And Detroit hits far above its weight with cultural institutions like the DIA that make you wonder why a city four times the size has a museum only marginally better. Perhaps most embarassingly, Chicago is only marginally better than Detroit in violent crimes - except Chicago has a fully functional government and Detroit has not had one for years!

48009 · September-12-13, 09:31 PM

HB,

People around Detroit are quick to bring up culture. Most of the culture is several decades removed. It's great that the factories helped win WWII but that was 70 years ago. Motown was off to LA 40 years ago. Picking up on the trend? Detroit is vacant of any current culture. That stuff is for history books and seniors to reminisce, the youth don't care or think about it.

PS:
The writer is from Lansing, Michigan.

**rb336** · September-12-13, 09:35 PM

HB, a very cogent description of the Chicago psyche. Their ads "second to none" underscore that insecurity in a city that was, for a long time, the second largest city in the country.

New York stands for something. LA stands for something. New Orleans stands for something. Ask someone what they think of when you say those cities' names and you will get a reaction. NY you get theatre, subways, energy on the positive side, gangs, rudeness, greed and crowded on the negative. LA - movies, sunshine and gangs, phoniness, etc. Detroit is like those cities. People will think of the headlines, of course, but beyond that you get industry, music, etc.

Chicago? it's pretty much a shrug except for Capone. Architecture geeks may say that, but they will also recognize that in Detroit and NY. Music?? it's a cypher. some might give it blues, but that was only because it was the biggest city near the Mississippi. Beyond Capone and any current headlines, you pretty much get a shrug. Especially if you go beyond the midwest, even more if you go abroad.

48009 · September-12-13, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

HB, a very cogent description of the Chicago psyche. Their ads "second to none" underscore that insecurity in a city that was, for a long time, the second largest city in the country.

New York stands for something. LA stands for something. New Orleans stands for something. Ask someone what they think of when you say those cities' names and you will get a reaction. NY you get theatre, subways, energy on the positive side, gangs, rudeness, greed and crowded on the negative. LA - movies, sunshine and gangs, phoniness, etc. Detroit is like those cities. People will think of the headlines, of course, but beyond that you get industry, music, etc.

Chicago? it's pretty much a shrug except for Capone. Architecture geeks may say that, but they will also recognize that in Detroit and NY. Music?? it's a cypher. some might give it blues, but that was only because it was the biggest city near the Mississippi. Beyond Capone and any current headlines, you pretty much get a shrug. Especially if you go beyond the midwest, even more if you go abroad.

Chicago "stands for" stealing smart college grads from Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Wisconsin, Missouri & Minnesota.

**hortonz** · September-12-13, 10:04 PM

And if James Howard Kunstler, one of the few contemporary American commentators with a firm grasp of reality, is right then Chicago will suffer an even worse fate in the next century than Detroit has over the last sixty years. The city's physical infrastructure make it uniquely unsuited to meet the demands of the future, when climate change, energy scarcity and a lack of investment capital will cause global economic activity to contract to a level not seen since dawn of the Industrial Revolution.

**313WX** · September-12-13, 10:24 PM

At the end of the day, Chicago is still a better city than Detroit. Chicago is also more of a household name than Detroit, for all of its imperfections.

For example, you never hear people say "I'm going to visit Illinois" when visiting the Chicago area, yet you always hear people say "I'm going to visit Michigan" when visiting the Detroit area.

That said, none of the above means Detroit can't be nice in its own way.

**noise** · September-13-13, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

At the end of the day, Chicago is still a better city than Detroit. Chicago is also more of a household name than Detroit, for all of its imperfections.

For example, you never hear people say "I'm going to visit Illinois" when visiting the Chicago area, yet you always hear people say "I'm going to visit Michigan" when visiting the Detroit area.

That said, none of the above means Detroit can't be nice in its own way.

I'm not sure why we can't accept that one city being "better" than another is all in the eye of the beholder.

**Wesley Mouch** · September-13-13, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by noise

I'm not sure why we can't accept that one city being "better" than another is all in the eye of the beholder.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but its not all in the eye of the beholder.

There nothing wrong with rating cities, schools, employees, employers, countries, medical clinics, highways, pension plans, car insurance, or dog vaccinations.

Consumer Reports certainly fills a function -- or is everything subjective.

Its pretty obvious to me that urban Chicago is one of this country's best urban villages.

The rating that matters is that people are moving there. Doesn't mean its perfect, perfect for you, or perfect for everyone.

**noise** · September-13-13, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but its not all in the eye of the beholder.

There nothing wrong with rating cities, schools, employees, employers, countries, medical clinics, highways, pension plans, car insurance, or dog vaccinations.

Consumer Reports certainly fills a function -- or is everything subjective.

Its pretty obvious to me that urban Chicago is one of this country's best urban villages.

The rating that matters is that people are moving there. Doesn't mean its perfect, perfect for you, or perfect for everyone.

That's going to depend on the metrics used to make the rating. That's also going to depend on whether those metrics matter to everyone reading them.

In other words, it still ends up being in the eye of the beholder.

Your determination that Chicago is one of the best urban villages probably means absolutely nothing to me if your criteria doesn't matter to me.

**wolverine** · September-12-13, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by hortonz

And if James Howard Kunstler, one of the few contemporary American commentators with a firm grasp of reality, is right then Chicago will suffer an even worse fate in the next century than Detroit has over the last sixty years. The city's physical infrastructure make it uniquely unsuited to meet the demands of the future, when climate change, energy scarcity and a lack of investment capital will cause global economic activity to contract to a level not seen since dawn of the Industrial Revolution.

Except Chicago has the resources to adapt and is. Government cooperation and the mayor that gets whatever he wants. Bicycle expressways we get them, incentives for green roofs and strict energy requirements on buildings, policies that discourage driving, installation of energy efficient utilities and infrastructure city wide. Forced shut down of coal power plants. Chicago is experiencing billions of dollars of investment into modernizing our infrastructure.

Detroit has barely scraped the surface. There are no policies in effect now that prepare the city for a future of climate change or rising energy costs, and the city is spatially hardwired for long commutes.

If this is a race to you, Chicago should be of no concern, because other Midwest cities are part of the game and have made quite the jump start in urban development and infrastructure investment.

**nain rouge** · September-12-13, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by Eber Brock Ward

You don't see people streaming into Bensonhurst the same way you don't see people streaming into Englewood or Lawndale in Chicago, or many parts of Detroit.

Great point. Access to the right amenities makes a huge difference. I've always thought that if what you wanted was a "real", classic Detroit experience, you'd move to Mexicantown, Hamtramck, the eastern half of Grosse Pointe Park, or maybe even east Dearborn, rather than try to build some new faux-Detroit in Woodbridge. But I guess people want the high culture areas with the iconic museums, theatres, and buildings. It gives them the sense of excitement they're looking for in urban life.

In other words, they're more in love with the idea of central Manhattan than they are what your typical urban American city stood for. And that's the challenge we see in revitalizing most of Detroit or South Chicago. If you can't convert it into your own private Manhattan, it's not as interesting.