Woodward Avenue Light Rail

[hudkina]

This isn't rapid transit. This is public transit. It's not a means of getting from Point A to B as quickly as possible. It's a means of getting from Point A to B without having to use a car.

There are some 200,000 people that live, work, visit and go to school along the Downtown to New Center corridor every day. This will allow many of those people to get to various places along the corridor without having to drive and find/pay for parking. I'm not sure why that's a big deal.

[wolverine]

This isn't rapid transit. This is public transit. It's not a means of getting from Point A to B as quickly as possible. It's a means of getting from Point A to B without having to use a car.

There are some 200,000 people that live, work, visit and go to school along the Downtown to New Center corridor every day. This will allow many of those people to get to various places along the corridor without having to drive and find/pay for parking. I'm not sure why that's a big deal.

So it doesn't have to be slow transit either. If you build the stations, rail and vehicles that are capable of running 30-40 mph and are presented ROW options that are clear of obstructions, it makes complete and obvious sense. My belief is it's totally political why these trains didn't end up in the center lane, and you can't justify its purpose other than that.

I don't doubt it will be fine getting riders. I certainly will take it myself. But I don't think it will maximize its potential for the cost of construction and operation. Eventually when this thing gets built out, speed WILL play a factor. The further you get from the city center, you want to win over new riders with the convenient, reliable, and fast service to downtown. Otherwise if I'm a car owner, downtown Detroit is already a quick and relatively inexpensive place to park my car. But it's a system that can't be upgraded. Once the tracks are in, there's really no possible way to upgrade the system.

I know not everyone is going to agree with me on this, but fortunately many people do. The US needs to be successful in winning as many transit riders as possible to prove that public transit, particularly rail is a worthy investment. No one should ever sell it as merely "getting from point A to point B on a shiny new train." I want reasons why I should ditch my car in a region that is so centered on the car. In exchange for the comfort and speed of my own vehicle, I would like to board a train that has priority over all other traffic and can get me from my home to my job as quickly as possible and be spot on time. If a planner told me I'd possibly be stuck behind a line of cars making a right, I'd probably just opt for my own car because I can do the same thing with the cost of gas still less than fare.

As for people who don't own cars, certainly this will provide some marginal benefit over the slower buses. But it's still going to work like a bus. And ultimately students and visitors without cars aren't the ones providing the long-lasting benefit. You want to win permanent residents that see this as such a great benefit they are willing to buy or rent a place right next to the line.

[mwilbert]

The proposed usually-one-lane-off-the-curb alignment is suboptimal, even stupid. The number of stops is excessive. Rapid, it will not be. But I am quite confident that it will be built and I fully expect many people to use it. Perhaps if there are follow-on transit projects people will learn some things not to do from this one. It would have been nice if they could have learned those things from the large number of existing transit systems around the world, but sometimes first-hand knowledge is more salient.

[Chinman]

New York's system, London's System and Chicago's system were built as they were growing...Detroit is already grown and wants do the same, It wont be easy at this point!

[wolverine]

mwilbert, absolutely. Transit agencies goof all the time and are never perfect. They rely on their riders to give feedback to make changes. It's just difficult when you start from scratch and all the ideas can be foreign to planners and stakeholders and no one asks the right questions or makes the correct decisions.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

So much to say in response to this thread. First, I am in favor of M1 Rail and am looking forward to being a user. But no one should feign surprise about the project being off to a late start. Major transit projects have no experience being either on time or on budget. At best, well-intentioned advocates for transit are guessing as to timeline and cost. NY's many current transit projects [[East Side Access Rail, Second Ave Subway, 7-train extension, WTC Transit Hub, Moynihan Station, Fulton Street Transit Center) are EACH at least 2-3 years behind schedule [[East Side Access is 10 years late), and many billions over budget [[note that they are not complete yet, so could still be later or more expensive). Washington's more modest "Silver Line" Metro's first phase is expected to open at least 6 months late, and $1-2B over original budget [[and it has been scaled back). The Metro is also facing something of an existential crisis because the infrastructure is deteriorating faster than the ability to repair and replace. I will not bring up California's giant expensive unfinishable High Speed Fiction, on which I have gone off on these pages in the past. No one should be so naive as to think that transit projects will be on time, on budget, or quite as mesmerizing as we hope they will be when we first dream about them.

The question we need to ask is: is a specific project worth the cost in dollars, land, initiative, political clout, etc? I think M1 Rail is. Building a complex, huge subway system in Detroit would not be. Investing money in an improved and more modern regional bus system would be. BRT might or might not be; I am not convinced that enough people would ride it to make it worth it. I think the commuter rail to AA makes sense if it conveniently incorporates an airport stop; if it doesn't, it would be a silly waste of money.

I don't think we should strive to keep up with the Joneses, as far as other area's transit systems are concerned. We [[as a region) don't have the density to merit a super-pervasive transit system, which makes it much more expensive per user to not only build but to operate into eternity.

We don't need pie-in-the-sky transit, although it is fun to dream. We need practical, affordable projects that will meet our very limited mass-transit needs. We will never have so large and wonderful a transit system that most people in the area will forgo using or having cars. Less to do with the automakers-keeping-us-down conspiracy than with the fact we are currently very spread out. And most people here LIKE their cars. I like mine. I do use mass transit, but I also love going for a drive.

Metro Detroit needs a little mass transit connecting major cities and points of interest, a little more in our downtowns. And all the assets we have or build should be integrated with each other. That is affordable, practical, and doable in the near term. And we should NOT build anything more than we can afford to maintain.

[rb336]

the second avenue line has been started and stopped since 1929

[motz]

New York's system, London's System and Chicago's system were built as they were growing...Detroit is already grown and wants do the same, It wont be easy at this point!

This needs to be quoted and repeated quite a bit. We're trying to retrofit public transportation, as well as a rapid transit system into a city that has already been built out. Its not an easy task and I suspect it will take a bit to figure it out. I personally will be using the M1 Light Rail for weekend adventures in the city, no doubt.

[bailey]

Originally Posted by Chinman
New York's system, London's System and Chicago's system were built as they were growing...Detroit is already grown and wants do the same, It wont be easy at this point!

This needs to be quoted and repeated quite a bit. We're trying to retrofit public transportation, as well as a rapid transit system into a city that has already been built out. Its not an easy task and I suspect it will take a bit to figure it out. I personally will be using the M1 Light Rail for weekend adventures in the city, no doubt.

That excuse would make some sense if we were talking about subway vs. street level or logistics of laying the track through built out property... but we're not. We're talking about picking the worst option of several available.

As noted, it's in traffic, it's short, it's curb running and has a ridiculous amount of stops . There is no earthly reason for a stop at Larned/congress, CM, GC AND the Fox. I mean Larned to CM is what? three train lengths? it's as bad as teh "bricktown" and "Greektown" stops on the PM. [[I'm being sarcastic...but still)

It'll get used exactly what it is designed for... downtown worker bees can park slightly further out and Dan Gilbert et al. can stop paying for the fleets of shuttle buses to ferry them to their far flung lots, a tiny fraction of the City's residents can use it to go a tiny distance within the city,[[already served by the bus system..albeit badly) and suburbanites can use it for parking shuttle on special event days. No one is getting to their job in the suburbs, no one is commuting any faster to anywhere off the Trolley line, and because it's in traffic, it's not going to move any faster than the buses it's supposed to replace [[but apparently not actually replace because buses are still going to run on woodward).

[48009]

I personally think the [[light) rail project is at least 10 years premature but the people behind the push have a lot more collective money, education, expertise & interests tied up the city than any of us message board quarterbacks. Seems like there are a few other projects and areas that could better utilize such vast sums of money. But I just assume Gilbert, Kresge foundation, et al. know what they're doing. Like, perhaps it's easier to start this project earlier rather than later?

[bailey]

I personally think the [[light) rail project is at least 10 years premature but the people behind the push have a lot more collective money, education, expertise & interests tied up the city than any of us message board quarterbacks. Seems like there are a few other projects and areas that could better utilize such vast sums of money. But I just assume Gilbert, Kresge foundation, et al. know what they're doing. Like, perhaps it's easier to start this project earlier rather than later?

Actually this sort of reminds me of the disasters in GM when cars were ultimately designed by committee and bean counters instead of "car guys".

I'm glad something is being done. I'll use it on occasion no doubt....just like I use the PM. however, I've lowered my expectations to the "Detroit/SeM" setting. I'm fairly certain I will be collecting social security long before anything resembling "light rail" makes it to 8 mile....let alone a regional light rail system.

[DetroitPlanner]

Actually this sort of reminds me of the disasters in GM when cars were ultimately designed by committee and bean counters instead of "car guys".

I'm glad something is being done. I'll use it on occasion no doubt....just like I use the PM. however, I've lowered my expectations to the "Detroit/SeM" setting. I'm fairly certain I will be collecting social security long before anything resembling "light rail" makes it to 8 mile....let alone a regional light rail system.

I hear M-1 trains are going to look like Pontiac Aztecs.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

the second avenue line has been started and stopped since 1929

True enough but I am only counting the present effort.

[Scottathew]

I agree with others that center-run with fewer stops is move preferable. If additional segments never get built, it will be People Mover II.

However, if this extends out into the suburbs, it will be a huge win and heavily used.

Although I would have greatly preferred a subway, but the costs are just to prohibitive.

[Detroitnerd]

See? Nothing wrong with a little debate. It brings out a good discussion.

Would others have rather we just behaved as though it were all settled and everybody was on-message?

[Zug]

I support the current proposal. Curb-side & all. Maybe I'm being short-sighted...but to me, the only reason it's being built is to be a permanent shuttle. Most users will likely be driving into downtown/midtown/New Center and then hopping on this to go someplace else. Be it WSU students/staff going downtown for lunch...downtown workers going to the DIA...visitors going to places along the entire length while keeping their car in the same spot...or people going to a sporting event being able to park further away. It seems like M1 has always been discussed and designed with a "shuttle" mentality. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing because hopefully developers will not find it necessary to have dedicated parking spaces for every single project. Promote the "park & ride" benefits, etc.

With that in mind, I actually think middle-of-the-street stops then becomes the "dumb" option. If we know ridership will be highest during a Lions', Tigers', or Red Wings' game [[and sometimes they will be playing on the same day), where will all those people stand? If just a handful of a World Series crowd decide to park & ride the M1, imagine how crazy it would be. Imagine the negative press and cries of "poor planning" once a station in a median has people blocking traffic trying to fit onto the platform. Or people having to wait on the sidewalk anyway because the platform is too crowded.

Every picture of a median light rail station that I've seen show a handful of people [[if any) actually waiting at the stop. What do these things look like when 25, 50, 100 people are waiting? With curbside, this problem is eliminated.

I'm not fooling myself. I imagine that M1 will be most utilized during events with meager ridership at other times. Knowing this, I don't think it's smart to build it as if it will definitely be "leg 1" of a regional system with consistent ridership. It may be one day...but seeing how tough it was to get funding for such a short length, I'd imagine it will be a while before we see a regional system.

[48009]

What's the motivation to use during events? I go to a lot of Tigers, Wings & Lions games and never have much trouble getting in and out of the city or finding [[cheap and safe) parking. It prob wouldn't save me much time or money [[since you know lots near stop will still charge the $10 or whatever) parking and railing in. I really don't see this being used much in the near future. I think this is a long term project, no?

[Hermod]

Here is a radical idea. We want a subway, but a subway is too expensive. A subway [[or an el) is just a private right of way. Close off John R. to traffic and run four tracks up John R. from downtown to Highland Park. The two outer lanes are for the local multi-stop trains and the two inner tracks are for the limited stop trains out to the burbs. Reduce to two tracks in Highland Park and elevate the tracks where necessary to clear industrial and railroad facilities. Around 8-mile, route the tracks into the center median of Woodward out to Pontiac. Give the train engineers override devices for the traffic lights at the cross streets.

[esp1986]

The biggest thing is to get something built. Will it be perfect? No. No project is. Curb running has it's drawbacks, but I don't think that parked cars will be a big issue in the long run. People will learn about that very quickly.

The number of stops can be addressed in the future. They can always remove them.

This is not another People Mover, let's get that straight. It has already been said that you can walk anywhere downtown in 15 minutes, tops. The point, however, isn't that you could drive to Midtown in five minutes. The point is that you can get there without a car. I would love to live in Midtown, but it makes no sense to drive that five minutes to work, which limits my search to downtown. That is the point of the rail line. So people aren't forced to drive, alleviating the parking situation downtown [[which is another story entirely). The rail line will cause demand for real estate, residential and commercial, to shoot up Woodward, the whole length of the line. Naturally, people will then become interested in the neighborhoods to the north, Boston Edison, etc. When demand dictates, the line can be expanded if development continues up Woodward.

Bottom line, is that the PM doesn't go anywhere you can't easily walk to, or for you naysayers, get to without a car. The rail line does. It opens up a few more square miles for people to live, work and play. Is it ideal? Nope. But, it's a start, and an easy way to get around without having to get in the car and worry about the growing challenge of parking.

[Detroitnerd]

People ride around every day with dozens of parking tickets, without licenses, insurance, headlights, mufflers ... but somehow peeps is gonna know not to park next to the curb. OK ...

[Zug]

What's the motivation to use during events? I go to a lot of Tigers, Wings & Lions games and never have much trouble getting in and out of the city or finding [[cheap and safe) parking. It prob wouldn't save me much time or money [[since you know lots near stop will still charge the $10 or whatever) parking and railing in. I really don't see this being used much in the near future. I think this is a long term project, no?

- A large portion of the current parking that people use will become an arena and [[hopefully) other developments in the "Entertainment District." All of these people will have to find new places to park. And once an arena is there, parking will become even more exclusive, and likely more expensive.

- I'm sure some of the 35,000 students and employees of Wayne State, or other employees in Midtown/New Center, would opt to use parking that they're used to and take M1 downtown for events. I work in the Medical Center and have a monthly parking pass, & I could see myself parking in my normal spot and getting on M1 instead of trying to find a place downtown

- There's people that may have a restaurant, etc. that they want to go to before or after a game in Midtown...much like some take shuttles from Corktown.

- I'm sure some would rather be able to park as far from downtown as possible to avoid traffic.

- Maybe even a small number from out of town staying at the St. Regis or Inn on Ferry may opt for it.

Those are some of the motivations I can think of. I agree that it is more long-term. However, I think the planning is based around lower expectations than some may have. The plans are based on having a line that best serves a 3.3-mile stretch without consideration of future expansion. The long term plan is that a 3.3-mile "permanent shuttle" will be in place for a more filled-in downtown. I think if everyone involved looked at the project like it will expand with 100% certainty, then they would have gone with the best layout for a regional system.

[bailey]

The biggest thing is to get something built. Will it be perfect? No. No project is....
... The point, however, isn't that you could drive to Midtown in five minutes. The point is that you can get there without a car. I would love to live in Midtown, but it makes no sense to drive that five minutes to work, which limits my search to downtown. That is the point of the rail line.

You post as if there are currently no buses running in Detroit.

You're willing to not only accept but base a major life decision [[moving to mid town) on a non-perfect, yet to be built trolley....but totally write off a non-perfect, but currently running Bus that currently services that [[its most busy and heavily utilized) route?

the trolley is at best a sort of 'express' bus route on rails. It will still get stuck in the same traffic...still be stopped by the same malfunction traffic lights...and still be held up by the same people boarding and getting off....etc. IT just has slightly fewer stops along woodward, but once it's downtown it stops on practically every corner.

Bottom line, is that the PM doesn't go anywhere you can't easily walk to, or for you naysayers, get to without a car. The rail line does. It opens up a few more square miles for people to live, work and play. Is it ideal? Nope. But, it's a start, and an easy way to get around without having to get in the car and worry about the growing challenge of parking.

Bottom line is that this trolley goes nowhere that a bus currently doesn't and where it does go, it won't be any better. Imagine if DDot and SMART were run as one entity, got a half a billion dollar upgrade and was run regionally by competent management? Is the bus ideal? nope. but it will get you to somewhere other than 3 miles of woodward.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

M1 Rail, like other urban improvements, will be just that, an improvement. Not a a perfect transformational change to the city. But it will make it some combination of appealing, safer, faster, easier, cheaper to get around the main stem of the city. If it's a real hit, and lots of people use it, there could be room long term to add further transit [[extend the M1 Rail, build complimentary bus service, more light rail on the other "spoke" avenues).

[bailey]

M1 Rail, like other urban improvements, will be just that, an improvement. Not a a perfect transformational change to the city. But it will make it some combination of appealing, safer, faster, easier, cheaper to get around the main stem of the city. .

People keep saying that.. but no one can actually say why any of that would be true vs. a well run bus system which would be vastly cheaper and benefit the entire region.

let me be 100% clear. I am not saying that regional LIGHT RAIL wouldn't be more appealing, safer, faster, easier, cheaper to operate than a regional bus... I'm saying there is no indication M1 Trolley will be any better than a well run bus. We're not talking about a line on the main stem of the city because that would be Jeff to 8 mile. with m1 we're talking one tiny portion of one line in that stem.

[esp1986]

Bottom line is that this trolley goes nowhere that a bus currently doesn't and where it does go, it won't be any better. Imagine if DDot and SMART were run as one entity, got a half a billion dollar upgrade and was run regionally by competent management? Is the bus ideal? nope. but it will get you to somewhere other than 3 miles of woodward.

There may as well not be any bus system at all. And what caused all of this in the first place, is that some people see themselves as being too good to ride the bus. Right or wrong, some people just see it that way. It is about connecting amenities, which the rail line will do along Woodward. When the buses arrived in Detroit is when all of the money left. By no means a coincidence that it followed the removal of the old streetcars.

It's a start. That's it. But it will provide a legitimate, trusted and safe way to move along Woodward. Something that hasn't existed in nearly 50 years.