Detroit is never going to "come back"

[noise]

As far as I'm concerned most of them should be put back through 7-12th again. What do you think K-12 is for? It's 13 YEARS of preparation for college. You have non-blacks coming into college more prepared, on average, and leaving with diplomas at a higher clip. You have blacks coming in vastly unprepared and leaving without diplomas, saddled with debt and no job prospects. If you didn't take K-12 seriously you're YEARS behind the eight ball, requiring exponentially MORE effort once you get into college. The stats show blacks are not putting the effort in. Some of them can't, others just don't care. Trying to blame the "system" is helping nobody.

So yet again we're at this crossroad: is WSU's graduate rate the problem or the symptom of a different problem?

Will "putting the effort in" be enough in failing school districts like DPS?

[Detroitnerd]

Having strong opinions isn't a problem. Having those opinions and ignoring the reasons they're flawed is a problem.

Well, I think it's because there's some deeper, underlying presumption that needs to be questioned first.

[motz]

As far as I'm concerned most of them should be put back through 7-12th again. What do you think K-12 is for? It's 13 YEARS of preparation for college. You have non-blacks coming into college more prepared, on average, and leaving with diplomas at a higher clip. You have blacks coming in vastly unprepared and leaving without diplomas, saddled with debt and no job prospects. If you didn't take K-12 seriously you're YEARS behind the eight ball, requiring exponentially MORE effort once you get into college. The stats show blacks are not putting the effort in. Some of them can't, others just don't care. Trying to blame the "system" is helping nobody. This is a culture problem first and foremost.

So are you implying that "blacks" are lazy and that the education that DPS gives in preperation for WSU or any other college anywhere is adequate? If you think that someone who is born and raised in Detroit and doesn't have the opportunity to go to one of the higher end schools in the system gets a quality education, you're part of the problem. We need to massively invest in those schools because THAT is where the change in culture will come from. Again, you're blaming "blacks that are not putting the effort in" instead of blaming an insanely broken system that very rarely, if ever, gives opportunity to poor, underpriveledged people.

Edit - as much as 48009 comes across as a troll, these are valid points that need to be discussed.

[48009]

So yet again we're at this crossroad: is WSU's graduate rate the problem or the symptom of a different problem?

Will "putting the effort in" be enough in failing school districts like DPS?

So are you implying that "blacks" are lazy and that the education that DPS gives in preperation for WSU or any other college anywhere is adequate? If you think that someone who is born and raised in Detroit and doesn't have the opportunity to go to one of the higher end schools in the system gets a quality education, you're part of the problem. We need to massively invest in those schools because THAT is where the change in culture will come from. Again, you're blaming "blacks that are not putting the effort in" instead of blaming an insanely broken system that very rarely, if ever, gives opportunity to poor, underpriveledged people.

Edit - as much as 48009 comes across as a troll, these are valid points that need to be discussed.

Illiterate parents making illiterate babies, letting them roam the streets or halls of DPS aimlessly, when they turn 18 they tell them to go to Wayne and collect a refund check when they have about a 5th grade level education and are unmotivated. You can improve and throw money at DPS all you want, the core problem is the household & culture of the black community. Until you fix this CULTURE problem the cycle will continue to repeat itself, i.e., 95% of Detroit will continue down its miserable path.

[canuck]

As far as I'm concerned most of them should be put back through 7-12th again. What do you think K-12 is for? It's 13 YEARS of preparation for college. You have non-blacks coming into college more prepared, on average, and leaving with diplomas at a higher clip. You have blacks coming in vastly unprepared and leaving without diplomas, saddled with debt and no job prospects. If you didn't take K-12 seriously you're YEARS behind the eight ball, requiring exponentially MORE effort once you get into college. The stats show blacks are not putting the effort in. Some of them can't, others just don't care. Trying to blame the "system" is helping nobody. This is a culture problem first and foremost.

I think that unfortunately there is a lot of truth in what you say.

It's a damning thing. It's not PC, but then a lot of other unsavory truths are just as likely to cause pain.

But we have to examine the reasons a lot of "ghettoized" folks have acted on their working class or non working class instincts in the past, and this can reveal the bind that Detroit is in now. If you look at the Irish in Boston's Southie of forty years ago, a lot of kids didnt have to look further than the docks to find a decent job even though mechanization was striking at labor at a fast pace.


If you look at AA's individual chances at successful careers after graduating let's say fifty years ago, the field was more severely limited than for a white of modest origins. You can imagine that a medical doctor, specialist or no, had a better chance at integrating the job market in a AA neighborhood or a very progressive environment. What I'm saying is the "sky may have been the limit" for black folks as well as white; but the sky looked somewhat grayer for black folks. And that is the truth.

The problem now is how to reconcile and find ways of ploughing through the fallow fields, by identifying opportunities that escaped black americans for generations.

[Detroitnerd]

Again, you're blaming "blacks that are not putting the effort in" instead of blaming an insanely broken system that very rarely, if ever, gives opportunity to poor, underpriveledged people.

Here's a scarier thought: The system ... is working.

What if the system isn't broken and this is what it is supposed to create?

A city of have-nots who are there to be exploited by drug cartels, corrupt police, the corrections industry, etc., a vast pool of excess labor that keeps every have-some insecure.

On the other hand, another city of have-somes, who actually share a lot of interests in common with inner-city residents when it comes to good schools, social protection, environmental concerns, etc.

But you pit both sides against each other and that way they never come together to demand the best for all.

Divide and conquer. It's as old as ancient times. And it works.

So, in my opinion, the system is working. And this thread is an example of that.

[noise]

Illiterate parents making illiterate babies, letting them roam the streets or halls of DPS aimlessly, when they turn 18 they tell them to go to Wayne and collect a refund check when they have about a 5th grade level education and are unmotivated. You can improve and throw money at DPS all you want, the core problem is the household & culture of the black community. Until you fix this CULTURE problem the cycle will continue to repeat itself, i.e., 95% of Detroit will continue down its miserable path.

I agree with your underlying point, if not the way you're trying to say it. And it's good you clarified, as at least one other poster seems to place the blame on WSU instead of viewing it a symptom of a greater problem.

[48009]

I agree with your underlying point, if not the way you're trying to say it. And it's good you clarified, as at least one other poster seems to place the blame on WSU instead of viewing it a symptom of a greater problem.

WSU letting these functioning illiterate adults spend $400/hr on classes they don't understand or care about is hardly helping matters. But most of these adults can't be saved, so I don't know what to say...

[iheartthed]

I think that unfortunately there is a lot of truth in what you say.

It's a damning thing. It's not PC, but then a lot of other unsavory truths are just as likely to cause pain.

But we have to examine the reasons a lot of "ghettoized" folks have acted on their working class or non working class instincts in the past, and this can reveal the bind that Detroit is in now. If you look at the Irish in Boston's Southie of forty years ago, a lot of kids didnt have to look further than the docks to find a decent job even though mechanization was striking at labor at a fast pace.


If you look at AA's individual chances at successful careers after graduating let's say fifty years ago, the field was more severely limited than for a white of modest origins. You can imagine that a medical doctor, specialist or no, had a better chance at integrating the job market in a AA neighborhood or a very progressive environment. What I'm saying is the "sky may have been the limit" for black folks as well as white; but the sky looked somewhat grayer for black folks. And that is the truth.

The problem now is how to reconcile and find ways of ploughing through the fallow fields, by identifying opportunities that escaped black americans for generations.

Sorry, I fail to see how any of that is relevant to why Detroit is a failed city. The city didn't begin to deteriorate under leadership of illiterate blacks. It began to deteriorate under the leadership of rich whites. You could say that rich whites caused Detroit to fail. But then you have a bunch of other cities in the U.S. that have not failed and also have rich whites. You have a bunch of other cities in the U.S. that have not failed and also have illiterate blacks. This is just an odd [[ideological) way to examine the failing of a major city.

[motz]

Here's a scarier thought: The system ... is working.

What if the system isn't broken and this is what it is supposed to create?

A city of have-nots who are there to be exploited by drug cartels, corrupt police, the corrections industry, etc., a vast pool of excess labor that keeps every have-some insecure.

On the other hand, another city of have-somes, who actually share a lot of interests in common with inner-city residents when it comes to good schools, social protection, environmental concerns, etc.

But you pit both sides against each other and that way they never come together to demand the best for all.

Divide and conquer. It's as old as ancient times. And it works.

So, in my opinion, the system is working. And this thread is an example of that.

Yay we're getting somewhere! I think I have to side with noise and say I agree with both you and 48009's points to an extent, I think it is mostly the way the message is being put that I don't like. However your above summarization does sum it up pretty well. The defunding of [[not specifically, but in this case) urban public schools has caused there to be a class of easily exploitable, easily manipulated people that the powers to be can use as they see fit. And its absolutely horrid. Public education is just one aspect that needs to be addressed.

[Novine]

About what we can expect from someone who's username is the Birmingham zip code.

[noise]

WSU letting these functioning illiterate adults spend $400/hr on classes they don't understand or care about is hardly helping matters. But most of these adults can't be saved, so I don't know what to say...

Like every school, they have admissions standards. And they've toughened them in recent years. If the K-12 passed the functioning illiterates, the blame lands squarely on them, not WSU. The fact they're NOT graduating is a good thing.

[Newdetroit]

Detroit does not have the population base to lead the city toward self-sustainability. What Detroit must do is build a New Detroit with a new population base. And yes, this involves relocating "less desirable" ghetto people to other parts of the city. You see it is very simple. Upper class and educated people wish to live among others who have the same standards of conduct..not entirely based on race. Every great city has bad parts. Detroit should be no exception. Basically, Detroit needs to clear out/raze everything along the I-94 strip. Everything between I-94 and the river from Dearborn to Grosse Pointe needs to be razed with the exception of Corktown, parts of Mexican Town, Woodbridge, the Motown Museum, Downtown, Midtown/New Center, Eastern Market, the Lafayette Towers, and Indian Village. The entire area between city airport and Hamtramck needs to be cleared, the area between New Center and Boston-Edison needs to be cleared, the entire city of Highland Park and the area between 8 mile and McNichols and between Woodward and I-75. So it would entail 160,628 people, 73,620 housing units of which 15,929 are vacant. More than half the population are renters. If each house is purchased for $20,000 and another $8,000 to demolish, it would cost [[57,331 x 20,000)= $1,146,620,000 + [[73,620 x $8,000)= $588,960,000 = $1,735,580,000.

In short, Detroit needs 2 billion dollars, raze huge portions of land, create a New Detroit south of I-94, and relocate 160,000 people. Anything short of that, won't work.

[night-timer]

It is a good thing that people do not know that because it isn't true.

I was gonna say, bigger than Los Angeles County? Forgot the name, but there's a freeway that goes for like 80 miles from somewhere down near Long Beach or Anaheim up to the Santa Monica mountains. But I don't know exact city dimensions, either way...

[canuck]

Sorry, I fail to see how any of that is relevant to why Detroit is a failed city. The city didn't begin to deteriorate under leadership of illiterate blacks. It began to deteriorate under the leadership of rich whites. You could say that rich whites caused Detroit to fail. But then you have a bunch of other cities in the U.S. that have not failed and also have rich whites. You have a bunch of other cities in the U.S. that have not failed and also have illiterate blacks. This is just an odd [[ideological) way to examine the failing of a major city.

Well rich whites built things like the Ren Cen to prove that the city was still a power to be reckoned with. They may have been well meaning but confounded by the concept of inclusion. Transit options at the base of a major complex like the Ren Cen could have been integrated but the whole idea of integration was already foreign to Detroit's fate.

If your main identity is that of a city devoted to individuated motion, the intention behind blocking access to transit is strong. Rich whites as you say made their bed in suburban heaven at the very start of the 20th century giving an even stronger impetus to automotive use than cities like NY and Chicago. Car companies were not about to let this captive hometown audience go to hell in a trolley.

What I was getting at though in my other post was that a whole culture of poverty had been released on Detroit in spite of the ambition of a lot of African-Americans. A culture that was not easy to dissipate let alone make disappear. Culture is the operative word here; not people. There are many people who never leave their neighborhoods without a bit of apprehension because they do not feel welcome outside certain boundaries; this applies to rich or poor. There is even a bit of snobbery among the lower classes when it comes to "belonging".

If you put in a guy's noggin that he is trailer trash because he lives in a trailer park, it becomes a cultural definition, not an enlightened assessment of an individual human being. If you look at Eminem's swagger, the cues are taken from black culture at the confines of what he knows of black culture. Elvis had a fascination and reverence for black culture and took his cues from Tupelo's afro vibe. When Berry Gordy started his fascinating road to discovering and nurturing musical talent in Detroit, the possibilities for expression and reception were immense. So Detroit had successes in the road to leveling the playing field.

Apart form that; I think Detroit metro suffers from a lack of "good friction."

"Good friction" can curb the idealism of individuation that we have come to crave in the western world. Humans in transit are made aware of their fellow travelers' divergent and convergent paths. Let us imagine that subway lines had been planted in Detroit's dense corridors 50 or 70 years ago. The possible ramifications of a well-designed system could have curbed some impulsive suburban flight; opportunities would have multiplied on account of circulation and opportunities would outweigh the monoindustrial decline of the city's economy. The opportunities that capitalists saw in Detroit lay further out. It was no big deal to abandon real estate in the city as long as the basic infrastructure, highways and rail were extended to suit industrial needs. The city's transit infrastructure dwindled to accomodate the automotive infrastructure to a point where if you are without a car in Detroit, you had better have a prayer.

[night-timer]

Is Detroit more likely to "come back" after bankruptcy than before? Going back to ground-zero and starting afresh does sometimes work, even though it feels humiliating. Several European countries have been asking for, and in some cases receiving, economic bail-outs from other European Union countries. So, it is a current worldwide phenomenon in some regards, but Detroit's problems just seem different again...

[sumas]

Honestly, Detroit will revive. It will just be different. I read all the posts and too many folk are using veiled racist comments. Certainly I appreciate/comprehend all the problems our children encounter. To feed the trolls, a neighbor lady went to a local house and the weed smoke was thick, the kids don't have ADD, they are inundated with THC. We simply quietly deal with these issues.

Quit bashing and bitching, become part of the solution, or get out of Dodge!

Of course Detroit has huge internal and external problems, but arm chair critics interest me not at all. Get off you ass and internet, roll up your sleeves and help us help our kids.

[bragaboutme]

Detroit will change overnight with responsible leadership. It has to start from the top. If you look at the numbers most of the populations loss was during the end of the KK years. Change that and people will move.

[nain rouge]

Bottom line is that we need to convince people that there is no choice. Detroit HAS to come back. In the '60s, a true cultural scene was budding in Detroit. But then the riots happened. Just off the top of my head, I know that Joni Mitchell and Joyce Carol Oates left Detroit [[yes, they lived here in the '60s) as a direct result of the changes in the city following the riot.

The movers and shakers in the cultural world are drawn - unsurprisingly - to cultural centers, and when we allowed our cultural treasures to rot, we doomed ourselves to social stagnation. Though the auto industry built Detroit, the only way we can move away from near complete dependence on that shrinking industry is by a revitalized Detroit. Too many of our great thinkers left for the east and west coasts because they couldn't find a vehicle for their dreams here. And it's a shame. All that work we put into Detroit, wasted.

[Cliffy]

Most illiterate adults likely aren't interested in becoming "marketable'. "Just give me some assistance and I'll try to get by." Same with motivation.

But the kids are a different story. Many want better than what their parents have settled for and are willing to work for it. When this present generation passes perhaps the younger children will be willing to put some effort into shaping their future; with a decent city government, many things are possible.

Its actually the complete opposite in Detroit. The 40 and under generation is completely worthless.

[sumas]

Its actually the complete opposite in Detroit. The 40 and under generation is completely worthless.

I've already stated opinions. For the record, it's the 30 and over that need help. Our kids are not lost. Not yet at any rate. My neighborhood works closely with our kids. reading classes, piano lessons, cooking classes etc. A heavy emphasis on community service.

I am very defensive of Detroit, God knows we have many problems to resolve. There is so many community groups that pitch in, big time. This is a people issue. Quit worrying about entitlement and do something.

Frankly, I lose all patience with racist arm chair critics.

[coracle]

It depends on how far back you want to "come back" to. Pre-1980 is impossible if it needs to emulate the racial divide, and there isn't a post 1980 scenario that is as good as today [[an opinion). So why should anybody want to "come back" when the future offers the possibility of new achievements to a better tomorrow? Forget coming back and think what you want go forward to.

[sumas]

It depends on how far back you want to "come back" to. Pre-1980 is impossible if it needs to emulate the racial divide, and there isn't a post 1980 scenario that is as good as today [[an opinion). So why should anybody want to "come back" when the future offers the possibility of new achievements to a better tomorrow? Forget coming back and think what you want go forward to.

I have to be honest, in all that hyperbole, you totally lost me.

Must be because I am a WSU graduate, therefor too stupid to comprehend utter bull shit. My husband graduated WSU also and received the highest award the University can give. I still have some ties there and am impressed with the students I meet. What's the problem? Some get grants???? Not you in particular but I just see so much negativity.

Lets's go back to this is Detroit YES.

As stated before, huge problems... please don't assume that residents are all ignorant or clueless. We address these problems, live them. Really, really can't stand stand arm chair critics or ex pats. Come down and help make a difference.

I do know the name of all my neighbors, the next block too, maybe a third on the following. I live in a neighborhood. For all Detroit critics with your burb attached garages I bet you don't know your neighbors. love my city, I have worked hard to make it better.

Honestly, do not know what else to say. This country's constitution is based on free speech. I just hear/read too much bull from people who haven't been here in years and some never, weighing in on our problems. Live here, do something. I am sick of reading racist rants by know nothings.

[iheartthed]

Well rich whites built things like the Ren Cen to prove that the city was still a power to be reckoned with. They may have been well meaning but confounded by the concept of inclusion. Transit options at the base of a major complex like the Ren Cen could have been integrated but the whole idea of integration was already foreign to Detroit's fate.

If your main identity is that of a city devoted to individuated motion, the intention behind blocking access to transit is strong. Rich whites as you say made their bed in suburban heaven at the very start of the 20th century giving an even stronger impetus to automotive use than cities like NY and Chicago. Car companies were not about to let this captive hometown audience go to hell in a trolley.

What I was getting at though in my other post was that a whole culture of poverty had been released on Detroit in spite of the ambition of a lot of African-Americans. A culture that was not easy to dissipate let alone make disappear. Culture is the operative word here; not people. There are many people who never leave their neighborhoods without a bit of apprehension because they do not feel welcome outside certain boundaries; this applies to rich or poor. There is even a bit of snobbery among the lower classes when it comes to "belonging".

If you put in a guy's noggin that he is trailer trash because he lives in a trailer park, it becomes a cultural definition, not an enlightened assessment of an individual human being. If you look at Eminem's swagger, the cues are taken from black culture at the confines of what he knows of black culture. Elvis had a fascination and reverence for black culture and took his cues from Tupelo's afro vibe. When Berry Gordy started his fascinating road to discovering and nurturing musical talent in Detroit, the possibilities for expression and reception were immense. So Detroit had successes in the road to leveling the playing field.

Apart form that; I think Detroit metro suffers from a lack of "good friction."

"Good friction" can curb the idealism of individuation that we have come to crave in the western world. Humans in transit are made aware of their fellow travelers' divergent and convergent paths. Let us imagine that subway lines had been planted in Detroit's dense corridors 50 or 70 years ago. The possible ramifications of a well-designed system could have curbed some impulsive suburban flight; opportunities would have multiplied on account of circulation and opportunities would outweigh the monoindustrial decline of the city's economy. The opportunities that capitalists saw in Detroit lay further out. It was no big deal to abandon real estate in the city as long as the basic infrastructure, highways and rail were extended to suit industrial needs. The city's transit infrastructure dwindled to accomodate the automotive infrastructure to a point where if you are without a car in Detroit, you had better have a prayer.

Yeah, infrastructure issues are a major [[perhaps the most major?) issue with Detroit. I don't know that you can even blame that on the culture of the city's current occupants. Most of that is beyond their control.

Anyway, what I've been trying to get at is that characteristics of Detroit's residents are largely irrelevant to why the city is failed. I think it's probably the other way around; cities on their way to failing are discarded by all but the people least able to flee -- they aren't able to attract new blood. Cities that have the characteristics to let it thrive will attract residents with the high value characteristics. Detroit's issue is that it doesn't attract anyone at all.

Compare Detroit to a thriving city like New York. The majority of New York City residents are people who were not born in New York City. Many of them weren't even born in the United States. And this has generally been true for most of New York's history. Cities have fluid populations and when they don't they're in trouble. Cities shouldn't just rely on people who were born there. If New York sent away all of its residents that were not born in NYC then it would have a population loss of similar magnitude to Detroit's.

[coracle]

sumas #98. Honestly, do not know what else to say.
I can buy that, having replied to my "hyperbole"/"rant" with 3 - 4 times more of your own. I did know you were a graduate of WSU so it would never have occurred to me for a moment that you could possibly be stupid. I don't know the names of your neighbors, so you got me there. Most of my neighbors are named "Hi", and some have detached garages. Not sure if that makes them racist no nothings.
The last time I was in Detroit was Sunday, walking about a half mile from River Walk. There was an eerie emptiness. A DPD [[old) car spluttered by; not sure if they were profiling me or on their way to pin a ticket on your car.