Detroit is never going to "come back"

[mwilbert]

I think the hypothesis is mistaken. The bulk characteristics of Detroit's population are certainly relevant to the attractiveness of the city, but it seems to me that even now, there is a wide variation between the different neighborhoods of the city, and you can have improvement in one area without improvement in others. And in fact we are seeing exactly that.

Given that the path to improvement is incremental, there is little preventing a gradual change in the people living in the city, which after all happens naturally anyway. And never is a really long time. On the other hand, the world is much different place from what it was in the 20's or the 50's, so I don't expect some kind of weird retro Detroit to appear either. Don't want it to either.

[Richard]

I think the hypothesis is mistaken. The bulk characteristics of Detroit's population are certainly relevant to the attractiveness of the city, but it seems to me that even now, there is a wide variation between the different neighborhoods of the city, and you can have improvement in one area without improvement in others. And in fact we are seeing exactly that.

Given that the path to improvement is incremental, there is little preventing a gradual change in the people living in the city, which after all happens naturally anyway. And never is a really long time. On the other hand, the world is much different place from what it was in the 20's or the 50's, so I don't expect some kind of weird retro Detroit to appear either. Don't want it to either.

True,but that is like that in every city.

There is always going to be a need for transitional housing,the students,waitresses or waiters,service workers etc.

The problem is five years from now the downtown core rents will force those out to the neighborhoods,the whole mass clearing for future new builds will not be cost effective verses working toward preserving what is there already.

That will be the stumbling block,you still need below medium housing and as it is the drive is to create strictly 100k plus housing in certain areas while in turn destroying the low budget or affordable working class homes,they say to take a combined three year salary to figure out what house you can afford,so 100k a year buys a 300k house,what percent of the future or even currant population of the city is expected to earn over 100k?

Does one now say that unless you earn 100k a year you cannot move to the city?It is going to be diversified and this whole mow down the undesirable neighborhoods because the city is never coming back is casting in stone to make sure it does not.

That was the old thought pattern thankfully both currant potential mayors realize this and have vowed to address it,as long as the constituents do not become complacent once they are in office.

[night-timer]

Pretty difficult to predict the future. Rising waters do not lift all boats, as the poor found out under both Ronald Reagan in the US and Margaret Thatcher in the UK, simultaneously. Personally I still blame those two for their 1980s economic rationalism that gave preference to big business [[the few) over the people [[the many) that we still feel today. "Urban prairie" may create ideal plots of land to build on when Detroit begins to grow again and experiences a demand for housing. But wealthy newcomers have a choice of places to live - they don't have to come to Detroit. Let professional scrappers/cowboys openly bid for the right to demolish blocks/houses and let them keep whatever goodies they can scavenge. Don't do it with the public purse, which will never have deep enough pockets to properly eradicate blight anytime soon. Or live with the blighted homes until the day comes when new residents will gladly buy those bargain-priced houses and revamp them.

[canuck]

Ah yes, night-timer,

some have fond recollections of the "Iron Lady" and the gent who was a happy mouthpiece for the "Ironmongers of the war machine". There is as much sorrow in acknowledging the heroes people chose at the ballots as in the sad streets of a hollowed Motoropolis.

[Goose]

Please point me to a successful city where over 50% of working age adults are illiterate, 1 in 3 drop out of high school, 35% collecting food stamps. This isn't 1935, when you only needed a pulse and some grit to work in a good paying factory job. Detroit is so far removed from being a competitive landscape, I really don't think it can ever "come back."

success is measured differently by liberals, by having 35% collecting food stamps, it IS success as they are reaching out and helping those that need it, to be more successful would be to reach 40% and help even more people...

the "war on poverty" has billions upon billions of dollars thrown at it for the past 60 years, new programs, new money, new benefits... its a war we are not winning...... but typically the only answer politicians have is throw more money at it.....

[Goose]

There is always going to be a need for transitional housing,the students,waitresses or waiters,service workers etc.

or not

just have the minimum wage raised to $15...$20..... $25 plus and then who needs transitional housing.....

[sumas]

Must say this is the most negative thread I have seen in a while.

[Hermod]

Ah yes, night-timer,

some have fond recollections of the "Iron Lady" and the gent who was a happy mouthpiece for the "Ironmongers of the war machine". There is as much sorrow in acknowledging the heroes people chose at the ballots as in the sad streets of a hollowed Motoropolis.

Did anybody live through the very, very dismal Ford and Carter years of the 1970s? Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were a reaction to the collapse in the 1970s of all the social and economic "planning" of the 1960s.

[stasu1213]

Statistics tell a different story. Outlook for kids from single parent, no college degree parents is very bleak. Two parents with no diploma generally make troubled children.

Two parents who have masters degrees, having no time for their children for the reasons of long work hours sometimes make troubled children as well

[Chicago48]

I think it will come back some day in the future.

Unfortunately, I'm 77, and it won't be in my lifetime.

Read this:
http://www.alternet.org/economy/real...ppening-motown

The disparities need to be fixed first, including the taxation.

[Danny]

How absurd that anyone says Detroit is never going to come back. Detroit is slowly coming back thanks to regional authorities that took serious investment and security risks. If those illiterate adults who stuck their 'PETER PAN and TRAYVON MARTIN' mentality don't want to be part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

Help those illiterate adults!


WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

for Neda, George Stinney, Guy Fawkes, 99 Percenters, Trayvon Martin and Rodney King.

[Danny]

success is measured differently by liberals, by having 35% collecting food stamps, it IS success as they are reaching out and helping those that need it, to be more successful would be to reach 40% and help even more people...

the "war on poverty" has billions upon billions of dollars thrown at it for the past 60 years, new programs, new money, new benefits... its a war we are not winning...... but typically the only answer politicians have is throw more money at it.....

Just like George Orwells book, 1984 where BIG BROTHER is feeding proletarians with leftovers just to keep them happy.

[48009]

Two parents who have masters degrees, having no time for their children for the reasons of long work hours sometimes make troubled children as well

Stop. I'm speaking statistics and statistically speaking couples with little education produce offspring that generally don't make it through college. How do you get two parents with no college and potentially no high school diploma to raise a child that cares about education? This is cyclical illiteracy and I have NO idea how you step in to prevent that child from going down the same path.

[Scottathew]

1. Fix the police. Make their response times some of the best in the country for any crime.

Fixing the police will get all the scum off the streets, and when people are safe they'll be in a much better position to break cycles and lift themselves from poverty.

2. Fix the schools. I'm ignorant of what DPS needs to do, but there seems to be an obvious issue in many DPS schools where kids are being underserved.

3. Once the two issues above are fixed, reach out to the community and make it known. Let folks know they can dial 911 and expect a fast response. Let parents know that schools are teaching their kids and that they need to do as much as they can to make sure they attend and do their schoolwork.

[getmoore]

I think the hypothesis is mistaken. The bulk characteristics of Detroit's population are certainly relevant to the attractiveness of the city, but it seems to me that even now, there is a wide variation between the different neighborhoods of the city, and you can have improvement in one area without improvement in others. And in fact we are seeing exactly that.

Given that the path to improvement is incremental, there is little preventing a gradual change in the people living in the city, which after all happens naturally anyway. And never is a really long time. On the other hand, the world is much different place from what it was in the 20's or the 50's, so I don't expect some kind of weird retro Detroit to appear either. Don't want it to either.

Yep. It's simple displacement. If somehow the City fixes the crime problem it will displace a lot of the crime culture that's going on right now. A lot of these dropouts may actually stay in school because criminal activity may not seem like such a lucrative or viable option. Good people will feel more comfortable moving into some neighborhoods and the criminals will feel more uncomfortable and move elsewhere. If the city strictly enforces code violations people who have no pride in their homes may start to feel uncomfortable. The undesirables soon become the exception not the rule. There are great people here in Detroit but a high concentration of folks who are a part of the problem. The trick is to make the City a place where the people who bring the city down feel like they have to shape up or ship out. Poor people are not the problem. Unmotivated, criminal minded people with thug mentalities with no drive at all are the problem. Make it hard for them to live here. Simple.[[Well not really)

[poobert]

Yikes. I thought I was supposed to be the voice of negativity on this board.

I'm torn. I hate stupid, ghetto behavior. It doesn't take money to clean up your yard or be respectful of your neighbors. I understand that growing up in an environment like the 'hood of Detroit breeds that culture. However these same ghetto people have now moved to nicer areas - of Detroit and the suburbs - and brought their behavior and problems with them. There will be rows of beautifully kept houses and the ghetto folk with the garbage in the bushes, screaming in the middle of the night, driving away the decent homeowners. It is a vicious cycle. There has to be some degree of personal responsibility.

However I truly feel sorry for people who are stuck in the 'hood, trying to work hard and support their families, while the schools and police and transit systems are failing them. It's a bottomless pit. Meanwhile the American worker has NEVER BEEN SO PRODUCTIVE yet wages have been stagnant, and you have tea party freakshows of Goose and their ilk blaming poor people for essentially serving up continually record-setting profits to CEOs.

As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in the middle, most likely.

As for Detroit coming back...no comment.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Two parents who have masters degrees, having no time for their children for the reasons of long work hours sometimes make troubled children as well

Good point. It's really on the children themselves to get motivation to improve and to find their lot in life.

[motz]

Stop. I'm speaking statistics and statistically speaking couples with little education produce offspring that generally don't make it through college. How do you get two parents with no college and potentially no high school diploma to raise a child that cares about education? This is cyclical illiteracy and I have NO idea how you step in to prevent that child from going down the same path.

You're painting your argument with a brush broad enough to coat a barn in one swipe. Not every parent who didn't graduate from college or high school is a terrible parent. I've known my share of people with college educated parents who turned out to be unmotivated, useless turds. I've also met some of the most brilliant, motivated, education-seeking people in my life who happen to come from families where the father can't read and the mother barely graduated high school. Generalizations are great when making an argument against something, but reality isn't always so clear.

[night-timer]

Did anybody live through the very, very dismal Ford and Carter years of the 1970s? Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher were a reaction to the collapse in the 1970s of all the social and economic "planning" of the 1960s.

Well, that's a bit before my time. If things were bad for many in the 80s, and you're telling me it was also bad in the 60s and 70s [[plus really bad now) I guess we knew the truth all along: things have been crap since the 1950s - everywhere, not just in Detroit. Why expect it to come back anytime soon? [[Although I hope it does, and it seems to be.)

[michimoby]

Detroit isn't coming back; it's growing toward something, though. We just don't know what that is yet.

And it's going to take a few cycles. It's going to take a few more failures before tasting success. It's going to take more than just a Gilbert or a Karmanos but a sustained force of mid-stage investors. It's also going to take a more focused and deliberate effort from the local universities.

In other words, it will take things that don't yet exist in the form they need to. The hypothesis, though, is that those things eventually will come to fruition.

[TKshreve]

A lot of deflection here regarding the OP's original thoughts.

Illiteracy is a huge problem in our city centers throughout the USA. Call it a symptom, call it a disease, call it a purple headed dragon...... I don't give a *$%@.

This falls on everyone to fix it. Blame the system for allowing corrupt, incompetent "leaders". Blame the wealthy for being complacent as generations of people run through a defunct system, turn to crime and negatively affect the region as a whole. Blame the parents for not demanding more for their children and from their children. And blame the children themselves for making decisions they know is wrong, but following through anyways.

But mostly, blame those who think this is not a direct problem facing America today. It can be targeted, measured and bench marked. Sounds like a good place to start towards a comeback.

[48009]

1. Fix the police. Make their response times some of the best in the country for any crime.

Fixing the police will get all the scum off the streets, and when people are safe they'll be in a much better position to break cycles and lift themselves from poverty.

2. Fix the schools. I'm ignorant of what DPS needs to do, but there seems to be an obvious issue in many DPS schools where kids are being underserved.

3. Once the two issues above are fixed, reach out to the community and make it known. Let folks know they can dial 911 and expect a fast response. Let parents know that schools are teaching their kids and that they need to do as much as they can to make sure they attend and do their schoolwork.

90% of these truant & delinquent kids are raised by single mothers without a college degree, 33% of them without a HS diploma. In other words, blind leading the blind, i.e., THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO PARENT. Some of them flat out DON'T CARE. As for DPS, they don't have any boarding schools, they are with those children for 5-6 hours a day, 8 months out of the year and then they go home and it's out of their hands. Even a single mother who cares doesn't know what to freaking do. Lip service of "do well in school" does NOTHING. Making a kid do well in school, especially in such horrific conditions as Detroit, is like a full time job. You have to be on your kids constantly. These single Detroit parents don't have the time, care and/or understanding of how to get their children out of this vicious cycle.

[Honky Tonk]

90% of these truant & delinquent kids are raised by single mothers without a college degree, 33% of them without a HS diploma. In other words, blind leading the blind, i.e., THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO PARENT. Some of them flat out DON'T CARE. As for DPS, they don't have any boarding schools, they are with those children for 5-6 hours a day, 8 months out of the year and then they go home and it's out of their hands. Even a single mother who cares doesn't know what to freaking do. Lip service of "do well in school" does NOTHING. Making a kid do well in school, especially in such horrific conditions as Detroit, is like a full time job. You have to be on your kids constantly. These single Detroit parents don't have the time, care and/or understanding of how to get their children out of this vicious cycle.

A lot of that type of upbringing is also unintentionally passed down. The current parents, were raised that way by their own parents, and so this must be the way that it's done.

[motz]

90% of these truant & delinquent kids are raised by single mothers without a college degree, 33% of them without a HS diploma.

Can we get some linkage to these stats, 48009? Or is this just more hyperbole meant to show that Bad Kids come from Single Moms?

[Detroitnerd]

When it comes to suburban white racism and classism, I tend to agree. A lot of that type of upbringing is unintentionally passed down. The current parents were raised that way by their own parents, and so this must be the way that it's done.