DPD Cops v. Coney Patrons -- Probable Cause or Testosterone-Fueled Pi$$ing Contest

[noise]

You're right, the two brothers should have just shown their ID

This is not at all right.

[EastsideAl]

Then the poster should have filed a formal complaint and contacted an attorney. Even though he indicated his story happened a while ago, he said nothing about pursuing action against the officers.

We're getting only one side of the story here. Remember that before you condemn the officers as guilty.

A black guy filing a formal complaint with the Dearborn Police. Yeah, that'll go far...

Are you even from around here?

[firstandten]

I'm a black male, so let me enlighten you. You're right, the two brothers should have just shown their ID and we believe [[keyword: believe) the incident would have basically have been over with. Still, that does not give the officer the right to assault either of them. The one officer put his hand in the man's chest and he simply pushed his arm away. So that in your twisted world gives the officer the right to swing on BOTH of the brothers? Sorry, wrong answer.

Here's the problem with that, the police had nothing on them from the beginning. The police may have thought one or both of the brothers made a INDIRECT statement that the officers took the wrong way. However this is not probable cause. Once they hand over there ID at that point they are subject to whatever the police finds once they run the ID check. My point is if there is no probable cause they have no reason to give the police anything other than a hello and a smile.

[Crumbled_pavement]

This is not at all right.

Here's the problem with that, the police had nothing on them from the beginning. The police may have thought one or both of the brothers made a INDIRECT statement that the officers took the wrong way. However this is not probable cause. Once they hand over there ID at that point they are subject to whatever the police finds once they run the ID check. My point is if there is no probable cause they have no reason to give the police anything other than a hello and a smile.

I hear what both of you are saying, and I respect your viewpoints. I'm speaking from the viewpoint of someone the cops wouldn't find anything on unless they planted it. What I was getting at more than anything is the cops at no point had just cause to swing on someone and punch them. Especially the one brother who was just standing there. It's amazing to me that police brutality can be defended in this nation as long as it is "them" that are being brutalized. When it is "us" then oh my, it's so terrible. I was almost offended at the reaction to the police in Cali that killed that dog. Had that been one of us, it wouldn't have hardly have been seen as that big of a deal. But a dog? No way, we can't have dogs being slaughtered.

[mam2009]

I hear what both of you are saying, and I respect your viewpoints. I'm speaking from the viewpoint of someone the cops wouldn't find anything on unless they planted it. What I was getting at more than anything is the cops at no point had just cause to swing on someone and punch them. Especially the one brother who was just standing there. It's amazing to me that police brutality can be defended in this nation as long as it is "them" that are being brutalized. When it is "us" then oh my, it's so terrible...

Besides the questionable probable cause to investigate the two brothers, the officer who asked for their I.D. and threw the punches behaved like a bully. He said, "We're just here to get some food" knowing good and well he intended to confront the young men about whatever words may have been said outside. Doesn't that make you think of a bully who passive aggressively stands in the personal space of his target in the lunch line, but then says, "What? I'm just standing in line?!" when you say something to them about it? That passive aggressiveness then turns to real aggressiveness when the bully makes his overtly aggressive move, asserting his dominance on his victim. THAT'S what asking for the license was about! It wasn't about probable cause. It was the officer's attempt to assert and establish his dominance and bait the young men into a confrontation by pushing the right [[wrong) buttons. How many men, particularly young men, like to have ANYONE overtly assert and flaunt their dominance over them? That officer knew exactly what he was doing. He intended to show that young man to respect the police or else? Do you think those young men learned to respect the police?

That was unprofessional and irresponsible policing. That officer just made it that much harder for officers to do their job safely and have the support of the community. Nobody likes bullies!

By the way, did anyone notice the other officer didn't throw a punch in the clip? He was just trying to gain control of the other brother, and thus the situation. So why was it necessary for Officer "Bully" to throw any punches? Officer "Bully" went from 0-60 in a tenth of a second with a complete over-reaction. There was certainly another tactical option besides punching the young men -- like putting more space between him and the more verbally aggressive brother, not less. Officer "Bully" wanted to confront and didn't care if it led to a fight. Officer "Bully" had no regard for the safety of others [[including his partner) in the restaurant or for the property of the proprietor of the restaurant. Officer "Bully" needs some corrective action taken against him.

All that being said, if I had a son, I would advise him NEVER to become confrontational with police. There are unprofessional police in the world just as there are other unprofessional persons in various professions. And it may be your bad luck to run into one.

It is okay to respectfully ask an officer why he wants to investigate you. A simple, "Did I do something wrong, officer?" would suffice. The police are SUPPOSED to tell a person why they chose to investigate them BEFORE they ask for I.D. But the one brother was dead wrong for walking up close to the officer as if he wanted to fight. They were both hotheads who challenged each other and neither was level-headed enough to de-escalate. ONE of them should be a trained professional at it, however, since that is part of his job training!!! If this video pretty much tells the whole story, DPD better not let this officer back on the street until he has some re-training.

[Honky Tonk]

Besides the questionable probable cause to investigate the two brothers, the officer who asked for their I.D. and threw the punches behaved like a bully. He said, "We're just here to get some food" knowing good and well he intended to confront the young men about whatever words may have been said outside. Doesn't that make you think of a bully who passive aggressively stands in the personal space of his target in the lunch line, but then says, "What? I'm just standing in line?!" when you say something to them about it? That passive aggressiveness then turns to real aggressiveness when the bully makes his overtly aggressive move, asserting his dominance on his victim. THAT'S what asking for the license was about! It wasn't about probable cause. It was the officer's attempt to assert and establish his dominance and bait the young men into a confrontation by pushing the right [[wrong) buttons. How many men, particularly young men, like to have ANYONE overtly assert and flaunt their dominance over them? That officer knew exactly what he was doing. He intended to show that young man to respect the police or else? Do you think those young men learned to respect the police?

That was unprofessional and irresponsible policing. That officer just made it that much harder for officers to do their job safely and have the support of the community. Nobody likes bullies!

By the way, did anyone notice the other officer didn't throw a punch in the clip? He was just trying to gain control of the other brother, and thus the situation. So why was it necessary for Officer "Bully" to throw any punches? Officer "Bully" went from 0-60 in a tenth of a second with a complete over-reaction. There was certainly another tactical option besides punching the young men -- like putting more space between him and the more verbally aggressive brother, not less. Officer "Bully" wanted to confront and didn't care if it led to a fight. Officer "Bully" had no regard for the safety of others [[including his partner) in the restaurant or for the property of the proprietor of the restaurant. Officer "Bully" needs some corrective action taken against him.

All that being said, if I had a son, I would advise him NEVER to become confrontational with police. There are unprofessional police in the world just as there are other unprofessional persons in various professions. And it may be your bad luck to run into one.

It is okay to respectfully ask an officer why he wants to investigate you. A simple, "Did I do something wrong, officer?" would suffice. The police are SUPPOSED to tell a person why they chose to investigate them BEFORE they ask for I.D. But the one brother was dead wrong for walking up close to the officer as if he wanted to fight. They were both hotheads who challenged each other and neither was level-headed enough to de-escalate. ONE of them should be a trained professional at it, however, since that is part of his job training!!! If this video pretty much tells the whole story, DPD better not let this officer back on the street until he has some re-training.

Excellent post and analysis of the event, and some very good advice for parents and offspring.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Excellent post and analysis of the event, and some very good advice for parents and offspring.

I concur...

[aj3647]

A black guy filing a formal complaint with the Dearborn Police. Yeah, that'll go far...

Are you even from around here?

If you're not willing to stand up, then don't complain about it. He also could have contacted an attorney and filed a civil suit for violation of his Fourth Amendment rights. But he didn't do any of those things. Instead, he did nothing. So maybe his story isn't QUITE the Nazi horror show it was painted out to be?

It's not like anyone ever leaves out inconvenient details, embellishes a story for dramatic effect, or misremembers an event.

People DO make false accusations against the police, either because they have an inherent anti-police bias or simply because they're mad that they got pulled over for something and want to "get back" at the officer. Read this story:

http://fayobserver.com/articles/2013/08/02/1273628

In summary, a white officer pulls over a black motorist and issues him a ticket. The black motorist then files a complaint alleging that the white officer used a racial slur during the traffic stop. Only it wasn't true. The officer's dash cam, which recorded the entire interaction, proved he never used a slur. The white officer then sues the black motorist for defamation of character. I hope he wins and collects lots of money from that asshole who tried to ruin an innocent man's career out of spite because he was issued a ticket.

Of course, had the motorist told his story on DYES, you all would have instantly believed him and crucified the cop.

[downtownguy]

It is okay to respectfully ask an officer why he wants to investigate you. A simple, "Did I do something wrong, officer?" would suffice. The police are SUPPOSED to tell a person why they chose to investigate them BEFORE they ask for I.D.

I also agree with everything you said. But that sentence got me thinking... What about when you're driving and get pulled over? It's been my experience that cops often won't tell you why, until you cough up your id, and even then, it's usually when they bestow the ticket upon you. Other than pissing the cop off to the point that you've eliminated any possibility of talking your way out of a ticket, do they have to tell you why you got pulled over before you give up your id?

[Honky Tonk]

I also agree with everything you said. But that sentence got me thinking... What about when you're driving and get pulled over? It's been my experience that cops often won't tell you why, until you cough up your id, and even then, it's usually when they bestow the ticket upon you. Other than pissing the cop off to the point that you've eliminated any possibility of talking your way out of a ticket, do they have to tell you why you got pulled over before you give up your id?

They usually ask me "Do you know why I pulled you over?" To which I reply "Surprise me".

[Goose]

I also agree with everything you said. But that sentence got me thinking... What about when you're driving and get pulled over? It's been my experience that cops often won't tell you why, until you cough up your id, and even then, it's usually when they bestow the ticket upon you. Other than pissing the cop off to the point that you've eliminated any possibility of talking your way out of a ticket, do they have to tell you why you got pulled over before you give up your id?

difference is, driving requires a license... walking down the street or eating at a resturaunt doesn't [[or shouldn't).....

[mam2009]

Thank you, HT & CP.

On a lighter note, an important public service announcement from comedian Chris Rock...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...51773540,d.aWc

[firstandten]

mam2009 thanks for the Chris Rock... that was great !!

[mam2009]

I also agree with everything you said. But that sentence got me thinking... What about when you're driving and get pulled over? It's been my experience that cops often won't tell you why, until you cough up your id, and even then, it's usually when they bestow the ticket upon you. Other than pissing the cop off to the point that you've eliminated any possibility of talking your way out of a ticket, do they have to tell you why you got pulled over before you give up your id?

I'm told the DPD manual advises officers to inform the citizen why they've been pulled over unless its impractical, depending on the circumstances, to do so. Im not sure what the law says. Regardless, debating an officer on the scene is NEVER advisable. Save your dissatisfaction for court. Here is some good advice from the ACLU.

https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform...what-do-if-you

[48009]

Breaking news: Acting like a smartass to cops doesn't end well, ever. And then the 20 yo moron has the nerve to say he wouldn't have acted differently? Hey pal, YOU'RE NOW FACING THREE FELONIES because you and big bro lack impulse control and couldn't check your wannabe thug egos.

Also, being "in college" is not an accomplishment, nor does it make these loudmouths intelligent. EVERYONE is in college these days, with the large majority there just to get a refund check.

[48009]

Claiming that you were racially profiled in an area where 9.5 out of every 10 people is the same race as you are is idiotic.

So true. This entire thing started because one of the kids walked by the cruiser and ran his mouth. Cops in Detroit have NO shortage of criminals to "harass". These brothers made themselves stand out and dealt with the consequences.

[firstandten]

So true. This entire thing started because one of the kids walked by the cruiser and ran his mouth. Cops in Detroit have NO shortage of criminals to "harass". These brothers made themselves stand out and dealt with the consequences.

SO WHAT ! if the kid ran his mouth he didn't say anything directly to the officer police officers get foul crap said to them all the time directly . Because of the badge and the responsiblity to that badge they must maintain some sort of professionalism. If the kids did something so that the officer had reasonable suspicion they were doing something wrong then that's different and they should ask for the ID

[48009]

SO WHAT ! if the kid ran his mouth he didn't say anything directly to the officer police officers get foul crap said to them all the time directly . Because of the badge and the responsiblity to that badge they must maintain some sort of professionalism. If the kids did something so that the officer had reasonable suspicion they were doing something wrong then that's different and they should ask for the ID

Sounds like you could have raised these morons, and the thousands just like them terrorizing the city, with no respect for anything or anybody.

[firstandten]

Sounds like you could have raised these morons, and the thousands just like them terrorizing the city, with no respect for anything or anybody.

That's BS and you know it. You don't know me. I have raised law abiding children in the city of Detroit with a respect for authority who by the way are college graduates. Those brothers are not morons, are not terrorizing the city. I stated there are many out of control kids in the city many with no home training or respect for authority I get that. Those brothers are not like that even though the police officers would profile them that way, just like you profiled me in your post.

[mam2009]

So true. This entire thing started because one of the kids walked by the cruiser and ran his mouth. Cops in Detroit have NO shortage of criminals to "harass". These brothers made themselves stand out and dealt with the consequences.

Uhhhhhhh... 48009 must not be your zip code in the United States, as I previously hypothesized. Here in the good ole USA we have this concept called freedom. We are permitted to criticize our government [[freedom of speech) and its agents without the consequence of being jailed or being threatened with the possibility of jail or a state-sponsored "whipping"... The cop should've put his big boy pants on and shrugged off whatever the young man said.

The cop pulled a "Zimmerman": making an impulse decision to unnecessarily pursue a matter without regard for, or anticipation of, the fatal consequences that could follow when firearms are readily accessible to those in emotionally charged situations.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Mam, stop feeding the troll.

[mam2009]

Breaking news: Acting like a smartass to cops doesn't end well, ever. And then the 20 yo moron has the nerve to say he wouldn't have acted differently? Hey pal, YOU'RE NOW FACING THREE FELONIES because you and big bro lack impulse control and couldn't check your ghetto ego.

Also, being "in college" is not an accomplishment, nor does it make these loudmouths intelligent. EVERYONE is in college these days, with the large majority there just to get a refund check.

Although, harshly stated, I agree with your first and third sentences. But let's not forget that Officer "Bully" exhibited some classic impulse control deficiencies...and HE'S THE ONE WITH TRAINING & WHO GETS A PAYCHECK TO KEEP THE PEACE AND ENFORCE THE LAW.

[mam2009]

Mam, stop feeding the troll.

You're right. Okay.

[mam2009]

mam2009 thanks for the Chris Rock... that was great !!

Glad to provide a chuckle. It should be required viewing in every drivers' training course! Lol!

[noise]

Sounds like you could have raised these morons, and the thousands just like them terrorizing the city, with no respect for anything or anybody.

You're the one disrespecting rights & laws here.