Suburbs are unsustainable?

**Danny** · July-18-09, 09:13 AM

Another thing the suburbs are unsustainable is development for a modern downtown. For years incorporated suburbs that were established after 1950s planned for a downtown area. However some planned suburban downtowns ended up the waiting list. If the modern suburban downtown was completed it might end up like Big Beaver Rd complete with more parking lots separate glass covered skyscraopers and a lack of predestrian streetscape life.

Downtown diva · July-18-09, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Danny

Another thing the suburbs are unsustainable is development for a modern downtown. For years incorporated suburbs that were established after 1950s planned for a downtown area. However some planned suburban downtowns ended up the waiting list. If the modern suburban downtown was completed it might end up like Big Beaver Rd complete with more parking lots separate glass covered skyscraopers and a lack of predestrian streetscape life.

Danny, at the risk of being banned from here for saying something contrary to you, i must respectfully disagree.

While Big Beaver has many parking lots, and many glass covered skyscrapers, it was never intended to replicate downtown. It was intended to be different.

laugh if you want, but the value of properties along the Big Beaver corridor far exceeds the value of property in Detroit....Even with an amazingly high vacancy rate in Troy [[according to many 3rd party sources), it still doesnt come close to the unusable buildings in Downtown Detroit that frankly would be better parking lots.

**313WX** · July-18-09, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

Danny, at the risk of being banned from here for saying something contrary to you, i must respectfully disagree.

While Big Beaver has many parking lots, and many glass covered skyscrapers, it was never intended to replicate downtown. It was intended to be different.

laugh if you want, but the value of properties along the Big Beaver corridor far exceeds the value of property in Detroit....Even with an amazingly high vacancy rate in Troy [[according to many 3rd party sources), it still doesnt come close to the unusable buildings in Downtown Detroit that frankly would be better parking lots.

That's a Detroitism.

In ANY other Metropolitan aross America, companies would be fighting to the bone to renovate and use buildings like the Book & Broderick Tower. Where as half the buildins in Troy probably wouldn't exist.

Stosh · July-18-09, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

That's a Detroitism.

In ANY other Metropolitan aross America, companies would be fighting to the bone to renovate and use buildings like the Book & Broderick Tower. Where as half the buildins in Troy probably wouldn't exist.

That is absolutely true. But, this is Detroit. And in Detroit, the systemic dysfuctional nature of the government for the past 40-50 years, maybe longer, has contributed to this condition. Government, police, fire, building department, institutions, etc, are all culpable in contributing to this condition.

I wonder how much the pervasive pay for play mentality has cost the city in terms of business and buildings? And I'm not blaming just the current council either.

**Danny** · July-18-09, 10:45 AM

Dowtown diva,

My codespeak is non-offensive to anyone in this forum so I'm following the rules.

Some suburban downtowns in Metro-Detroit are so-called or pseudo-downtowns Troy, West Bloomfield, Clinton TWP, Canton TWP, Livonia are the examples. If the developers don't create a street scapes, outlet buildings, parking spaces [[not farther away from streets), fancy street lighting, sidewalks and predestrian life, then it's would be no downtown. Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Grosse Pointe Park, Grosse Pointe, Grosse Pointe Farms, Dearborn, Wyandotte created the downtowns since the boomtown eras of the 1900s. Other new suburbs should do the same if their city was incorporated.

**ghettopalmetto** · July-18-09, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

While Big Beaver has many parking lots, and many glass covered skyscrapers, it was never intended to replicate downtown. It was intended to be different.

And by "different", you mean "designed to accommodate cars". Lots and lots of cars.

Originally Posted by Downtown diva

laugh if you want, but the value of properties along the Big Beaver corridor far exceeds the value of property in Detroit....Even with an amazingly high vacancy rate in Troy [[according to many 3rd party sources), it still doesnt come close to the unusable buildings in Downtown Detroit that frankly would be better parking lots.

Is this based on real information? Or are you guessing? To me, an appropriate measure of value for comparison would be the current leasing rates per square foot for Class A office space.

**Danny** · July-22-09, 09:58 AM

There is a proposal to have M-59 expand to six lanes both west and eastbound road. Now that's unsustainable. It would kill off naturescape and predestrian life, promote suburban growth, create more traffic congestion and contribute to more pollution.

IT'S TERRIBLE!

**Novine** · July-22-09, 11:06 AM

"laugh if you want, but the value of properties along the Big Beaver corridor far exceeds the value of property in Detroit"

I think these numbers are accurate. I think it's also accurate to say that outside of Southeast Michigan, Troy has had almost zero impact or presence in the economy of the US, the history of the US, the culture of the US, etc. Go anywhere and ask people what they know about Troy, Michigan or its impact on anything. Be prepared for blank stares. For all of Detroit's poverty, its place in US history, economy and culture is unquestioned. As the famous saying put it, when it comes to Troy, "There is no there there".

**313WX** · July-22-09, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

There is a proposal to have M-59 expand to six lanes both west and eastbound road. Now that's unsustainable. It would kill off naturescape and predestrian life, promote suburban growth, create more traffic congestion and contribute to more pollution.

IT'S TERRIBLE!

Besides, the rush hour congestion has not only decreased with the "depression", but our region is experiencing a decline in population.

You gotta love our politicians and their lack of common sense.

**Jimaz** · July-22-09, 12:35 PM

There is a proposal to have M-59 expand to six lanes both west and eastbound road.

I don't think it's just a proposal anymore.

From today's Detroit News: M-59 fix kicks off stimulus roadwork.

Fueled by $71.3 million in economic stimulus funds, the Michigan Department of Transportation begins its first batch of federal stimulus road projects in a few days.

All four of the projects set for M-59, Interstate 96, Telegraph and the Woodward business loop are part of $842 million that Michigan is receiving from the federal American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. They all begin within two weeks, with the widening of M-59 and bridge repairs along I-96 starting Monday.

The M-59 project -- widening between Crooks and Ryan -- has been on MDOT's wish list a long time, said spokesman Rob Morosi....

... a visual inspection in 2008 of approximately 4,000 miles of paved federally aided roads across Metro Detroit showed that 30 percent were in poor condition, up from 27 percent in 2007, 25 percent in 2006, 13 percent in 2005 and 10 percent in 2004, according to a recent Southeast Michigan Council of Governments survey....

MDOT will begin the long-anticipated $50 million M-59 project Monday with the current two-lane section widened to three lanes in each direction.

Preliminary work on M-59 will include the widening of shoulders and the construction of freeway crossovers to handle a future traffic shift.

MDOT is hosting an open house today to discuss the proposed interchange improvements at M-59 and Crooks Road in Rochester Hills. The meetings are from 2-4 p.m. and 6-8 p.m. at Rochester Hills City Hall.

In addition to the widening of the freeway, crews will also make repairs to six bridges, including: Auburn, Rochester, John R, Dequindre and Ryan roads as well as Livernois Avenue. This project is expected to be completed in November 2010.

There are still pedestrians alive on M-59? How many did I miss?

**Gistok** · July-22-09, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

I don't think it's just a proposal anymore.

From today's Detroit News: M-59 fix kicks off stimulus roadwork.There are still pedestrians alive on M-59? How many did I miss?

Both of them....

**Novine** · July-22-09, 03:45 PM

This stretch of M-59 is already freeway. Unnecessary? Perhaps. But it's not as if this is going through some downtown area.

Bearinabox · July-22-09, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

This stretch of M-59 is already freeway. Unnecessary? Perhaps. But it's not as if this is going through some downtown area.

No, but I'll still curse MDOT's name every time I hit a Volkswagen-sized pothole on a trunkline that has the misfortune of not being located in a wealthy outer-ring suburb. Whatever happened to fixing it first?

DetroitDad · July-23-09, 10:00 PM

So to recap, Detroit and it's suburbs are currently not sustainable. I outlined why the suburbs are not sustainable, what sustainability looks like, and why the suburbs can not become sustainable, but why will Detroit become sustainable in the future?

Here is a link to a very good blog that outlines in great detail why emergent urbanism designs like Detroit will be sustainable in the future, and why the planned suburban developments will not be.

From; http://emergenturbanism.com/

Check out these set of posts. They are long, but they really say a lot about development in general. Be sure to check out part one and two first. http://emergenturbanism.com/2009/07/...ntaneous-city/

Then there is this short post that talks about why the suburban model is dead. http://emergenturbanism.com/2009/05/...l-is-finished/

And if you are still interested after those, check out the comment section of this post, which talks about the fact that the suburbs are actually overdeveloped, believe it or not. http://emergenturbanism.com/2009/06/...ban-emergence/

Stosh · July-23-09, 10:55 PM

What's amazing is, after much discussion to the contrary, you still continue this inanity. Then digging up some pretentious French blogger to illustrate your point? The guy advocates letting slums occur wherever they will, and his supposition that business will somehow spring from these slums is amazing in it's ignorance. He's more suited to play Sim City than tell anyone how to revitilize failed cities. Anyone can write a blog. It doesn't make them an expert on anything. It's like staying at a Holiday Inn express and suddenly becoming a brain surgeon.

DetroitDad · July-23-09, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

What's amazing is, after much discussion to the contrary, you still continue this inanity. Then digging up some pretentious French blogger to illustrate your point? The guy advocates letting slums occur wherever they will, and his supposition that business will somehow spring from these slums is amazing in it's ignorance. He's more suited to play Sim City than tell anyone how to revitilize failed cities. Anyone can write a blog. It doesn't make them an expert on anything. It's like staying at a Holiday Inn express and suddenly becoming a brain surgeon.

Oh wow, I didn't realize he got his degree in urban planning in Paris, I just saw his B.A. in economics and computer science. What was I thinking Stosh? The French know nothing about urban design, you are right. Just look at the unsustainable urban mess known as Paris. What was I thinking?

Stosh, tell me more about what you learned from this Sim City? Does it deal a lot with urban emergence and fractal geometry?

How about providing counter arguments instead of just calling him names? You can ignore the proof all you want Stosh, I think this thread pretty much proves that suburbia is relatively unsustainable. I don't know how you see it as otherwise.

Stosh · July-24-09, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

Oh wow, I didn't realize he got his degree in urban planning in Paris, I just saw his B.A. in economics and computer science. What was I thinking Stosh? The French know nothing about urban design, you are right. Just look at the unsustainable urban mess known as Paris. What was I thinking?

Notably, the limits of construction height in Paris has spawned numerous skyscrapers in suburbs of Paris. Sound familiar? Here in Detroit, there's other factors limiting the growth. Read exactly what he says. He speaks in circles. Sound familiar?

Stosh, tell me more about what you learned from this Sim City? Does it deal a lot with urban emergence and fractal geometry?

Sim City is a fine game to learn the life cycles of a city. It takes rebuilding to make cities work. That's something not happening in Detroit.

Maybe you can enlighten me on fractal geometry and how it applies to urban planning. In your own words. Without links. Or video. Same with this urban emergence theory. No notes. No video or links. Just you. Can you do it?

How about providing counter arguments instead of just calling him names? You can ignore the proof all you want Stosh, I think this thread pretty much proves that suburbia is relatively unsustainable. I don't know how you see it as otherwise

It's easy to ignore people like that. Like I said, anyone that could advocate slums as an engine for economic change is a pretentious poser. Anyone that believes his claptrap must be the same. What this thread proves, is basically nothing. It's all fluff, no real substance or ideas, save for the idea that everone should flock back to Detroit because it's the center city.

Sustainability has many components. You are ignoring the vast majority in favor of one narrow vision, that of urban density. How about the 450 [[now) million dollar deficit in the city today? Is that sustainability?

**ordinary** · July-24-09, 10:24 AM

I think MWilbert's post [[#86) has made the most sense of any on this thread.
And I have to admit that I felt a little jealous when I read Lodgedodger and Toolbox saying they could get everything they needed in their areas and one said that he could live without a car.
I live in an eastside inner ring suburb and work downriver and I have to say that the drive SUCKS and I would love to get closer to work somehow. But hey, I made some choices long ago and moving back to Detroit is just not practical for a guy in my position. I don't want to quit a job I've had for 19 years [[well it would be nice to have that option) and I don't want to leave the house I've been in for 24.

**Danny** · July-24-09, 11:34 AM

M-59 is the new I-696. What's suburban growth without its mega freeways system? A pure naturescape and less pollution.

DetroitDad · July-24-09, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Notably, the limits of construction height in Paris has spawned numerous skyscrapers in suburbs of Paris. Sound familiar? Here in Detroit, there's other factors limiting the growth. Read exactly what he says. He speaks in circles. Sound familiar?

Sim City is a fine game to learn the life cycles of a city. It takes rebuilding to make cities work. That's something not happening in Detroit.

Maybe you can enlighten me on fractal geometry and how it applies to urban planning. In your own words. Without links. Or video. Same with this urban emergence theory. No notes. No video or links. Just you. Can you do it?

It's easy to ignore people like that. Like I said, anyone that could advocate slums as an engine for economic change is a pretentious poser. Anyone that believes his claptrap must be the same. What this thread proves, is basically nothing. It's all fluff, no real substance or ideas, save for the idea that everone should flock back to Detroit because it's the center city.

Sustainability has many components. You are ignoring the vast majority in favor of one narrow vision, that of urban density. How about the 450 [[now) million dollar deficit in the city today? Is that sustainability?

I am not an expert, but have read up on the concept. I spend most of my days in the Detroit Public Library, and feel I understand the concept enough to bring it up. I'm not sure anyone could explain a great many things to you Stosh, you are to set in your ways. I think maybe you should just stick to your Sim City, it sounds perfect for you.

Slums are a very important and dare I say necessary part of any good city and emergent city cycle, but again, I think I would just be wasting my breath explaining that concept to a brick wall.

**Johnlodge** · July-24-09, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

I spend most of my days in the Detroit Public Library

This doesn't sound sustainable.

Stosh · July-24-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

I am not an expert, but have read up on the concept. I spend most of my days in the Detroit Public Library, and feel I understand the concept enough to bring it up. I'm not sure anyone could explain a great many things to you Stosh, you are to set in your ways. I think maybe you should just stick to your Sim City, it sounds perfect for you.

Slums are a very important and dare I say necessary part of any good city and emergent city cycle, but again, I think I would just be wasting my breath explaining that concept to a brick wall.

You don't presume to know me. I think that you need to read some more blogs. SimCity is what YOU play, it seems. All this theoretical jibber jabber. Whatever.
I'll let the basis of my above arguments speak for themselves. It's obvious that you can not or will not answer the question posted above:

Maybe you can enlighten me on fractal geometry and how it applies to urban planning. In your own words. Without links. Or video. Same with this urban emergence theory. No notes. No video or links. Just you. Can you do it?

Words without understanding are just words.

What's even more disturbing is this strange bit of logic from you

Slums are a very important and dare I say necessary part of any good city and emergent city cycle, but again, I think I would just be wasting my breath explaining that concept to a brick wall

You are obviously kidding, right?

**313WX** · July-24-09, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

This doesn't sound sustainable.

Reading sustains the mind.

DetroitDad · July-24-09, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by ordinary

I think MWilbert's post [[#86) has made the most sense of any on this thread.
And I have to admit that I felt a little jealous when I read Lodgedodger and Toolbox saying they could get everything they needed in their areas and one said that he could live without a car.
I live in an eastside inner ring suburb and work downriver and I have to say that the drive SUCKS and I would love to get closer to work somehow. But hey, I made some choices long ago and moving back to Detroit is just not practical for a guy in my position. I don't want to quit a job I've had for 19 years [[well it would be nice to have that option) and I don't want to leave the house I've been in for 24.

Sustainability also has to do with more than liquid growth and density. A built environment is sort of it's own organic life form. A city has to be able to adapt and change to meet the needs of society. Because of the nature of suburbs, they can not do this in the way they need to be done, they are over built and can't meet the need for change. This is the reason I brought up the possible problems in an earlier post [[Peak oil and the like). I don't believe all of those mentioned problems will happen and I don't know which will happen, but the odds are good that one or two will. Those things will require change that suburbia will not be able to adapt to.

DetroitDad · July-24-09, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

You don't presume to know me. I think that you need to read some more blogs. SimCity is what YOU play, it seems. All this theoretical jibber jabber. Whatever.
I'll let the basis of my above arguments speak for themselves. It's obvious that you can not or will not answer the question posted above:

Words without understanding are just words.

What's even more disturbing is this strange bit of logic from you

You are obviously kidding, right?

Trying to discredit someone because they use visual aides and references is an act of an arrogant little infant who is losing an argument. If I'm not making any sense than it would be easy to discredit me and prove me wrong. Stop fighting me and fight the problem.

Do tell Stosh and others, why are the suburbs more sustainable than the city of Detroit?